Am I alone in this?

[Aurora Moon]

Lionel saying that Lex's wrongdoings were worse than his was Lionel demonstrating hypocrisy in its purest form. Because Lex's misdeeds? Were not worse than Lionel's. They were just as bad, yes. But nothing that Lex did was worse than what Lionel had been doing for most of his adult life (killing, experimenting on unwilling people, manipulating others for selfish purposes, etc.). Lionel gives me the impression of being the kind of person who almost completely lacks self-awareness and capability for genuine empathy. And the fact that post-redemption!Lionel continued to gleefully push Lex's buttons at every opportunity (which is emotional abuse) does nothing to make me believe Lionel ever felt a shred of sincere remorse over how he had treated his son. Lionel is one the worst fictional abusive parents I have ever seen on TV, and the most terrible thing about him is that the show actually tries to justify him on a few occasions.

Amen to this. And add on the fact that Lionel pretty much locked up Clark in an Kryptonite Cage for "clark's own good" at one point when he was still supposed to be a "redeemed guy".....*shakes head*

Like I said before, he was never a good guy at all though out the series. He was just brainwashed by Jor-el to think that he was good, while still carrying on his horrible behavior.

[Dagenspear]

Amen to this. And add on the fact that Lionel pretty much locked up Clark in an Kryptonite Cage for "clark's own good" at one point when he was still supposed to be a "redeemed guy".....*shakes head*

Like I said before, he was never a good guy at all though out the series. He was just brainwashed by Jor-el to think that he was good, while still carrying on his horrible behavior.

Actually, locking Clark up and blackmailing Lana to stay with Lex, along with covering up Lex's murder of the doctor are the worse things Lionel has done, say for lying about stuff since that happened.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[computermaster]

My opinion on Lionel is that deep down he knew that Lex had potential to be a little cleverer and a little more ruthless than himself. This terrified him as much as it impressed him. All the tests and what not were to throw Lex off his game as well as make him stronger. Once he ultimately chooses Clark's side however (he doesn't do this because he is a changed man or for any nonsense he spewed, but rather because he thinks he has chosen the winning side) that was it for him. I honestly think he could have lived had he shown loyalty to Lex earlier on. Lex didn't have to kill him because he was the villain of the story or to complete his destiny or because of some nonsense like the show needing to move on from Lionel. My reading of it is that Lex saw through his lies when he tried to tell him he was the traveler and that along with his loyalty to Clark meant that he had to go.

As for Jon Kent, while I don't condone his treatment of Lex, his defence would be that he was right about Lex all long. Had Clark listened to him and cut ties with Lex as soon as they met, it could have saved him a load of trouble later on.

[laurarawlins]

you are 100% correct

My opinion on Lionel is that deep down he knew that Lex had potential to be a little cleverer and a little more ruthless than himself. This terrified him as much as it impressed him. All the tests and what not were to throw Lex off his game as well as make him stronger. Once he ultimately chooses Clark's side however (he doesn't do this because he is a changed man or for any nonsense he spewed, but rather because he thinks he has chosen the winning side) that was it for him. I honestly think he could have lived had he shown loyalty to Lex earlier on. Lex didn't have to kill him because he was the villain of the story or to complete his destiny or because of some nonsense like the show needing to move on from Lionel. My reading of it is that Lex saw through his lies when he tried to tell him he was the traveler and that along with his loyalty to Clark meant that he had to go.

As for Jon Kent, while I don't condone his treatment of Lex, his defence would be that he was right about Lex all long. Had Clark listened to him and cut ties with Lex as soon as they met, it could have saved him a load of trouble later on.

now this I can agree with completely. Even when Lex returned to Lionel's company to work for his father. Lionel constantly saw Lex as a threat and could never fully let Lex in. Lionel represented the evil criminal mastermind that Lex was destined to become. Nevertheless While Lionel saw the errors of his ways and worked to redeem himself, Lex took a darker path and and finally became the product of Lionel's cruelty that he had always hoped for.

In season 3 when Lionel was injured by Jeremiah, Lex showed concern and offered to help find him. However, Lionel refused to trust him, which was justified, as it became clear that both were only interested in their own search for power.

in season 4 while evil Lex was certainly caused by Lionel's cruel parenting, in return Lionel's regression to evil was caused by his son. Once lex had become whole again, he was disappointed in Lionel's change back to his old ways. Nevertheless, Lionel seemed to be grateful to Lex for showing him that despite his enhanced value for life, he refuses to be controlled by his only son.

In season 7 As Lionel killed his father, Lex killed Lionel, proving that he was a product of Lionel's parenting. This could have been avoided if Lionel had been kinder to his son and showed him the love that Lex longed for much earlier in their relationship, but Lex proved to be just as untrustworthy and more ruthless than Lionel was by using meteor freaks to carry out his simplest needs and killing people over the slightest inconvenience, something Lionel has never done.

While Lionel planned his father's death, Lex killed his father with his own bare hands. Although Lex was initially shocked by what he had done as Gina (his assistant) perceived this as grief, Lex treated his father with the same contempt that he was shown as a child as he blocked Lionel's funeral from all guests (sans Clark), showing him no respect.

[Aurora Moon]

Honestly, it disgusts me how people are trying to downplay Lionel's past crimes and sins just because he claimed to be reformed and a good guy in later seasons. UGH. Call a spade for what it really is, please.

Look at the facts:
Lex never planned to kill Lionel Luthor, it was a spur of the moment thing. He was genuinely shocked at what he did afterwards. It actually kind of humanized him a little bit, when we saw how shocked he was. Was it terrible what he did? Yes. But human beings kill in random fits of passion and hate everyday, without it being premeditated murder. Often it's the sort of thing that many wouldn't ever do again, if they had the chance to do it all over again. I doubt Lex would ever do it again if he went back in time or something.

Lionel Luthor on the other hand, planned the murder of his own parents down to the tiniest detail, and didn't even feel bad about it afterwards. He did this not because he hated his parents, or because they were abusive to him (They might actually had been good parents for all we know).... but because of MONEY! To me this is FAR MORE HORRIFIC AND EVIL! I mean, murdering your own parents for profit?? And the most damning thing is that Lionel Luthor would absolutely do it again if he could... hell, he may even cite some ******** reason like "Had to do it to keep the time-line intact... still a good guy, honest! even though I still don't feel bad about murdering my parents..."

It's alright to like a guy if you believe he's genuinely reformed. But, it's unhealthy to start making excuses for all the horrible things he did in the past just because you like him now. If he is truly reformed, then he would had owned up to the fact that... yes, he did do horrible things and is trying to make up for it.
He wouldn't attempt to justify any of the evil things he did, period.

[Dagenspear]

Honestly, it disgusts me how people are trying to downplay Lionel's past crimes and sins just because he claimed to be reformed and a good guy in later seasons. UGH. Call a spade for what it really is, please.

Are people doing that? I haven't read the thread past this page. I don't see people justifying or downplaying his actions based on him becoming reformed.

Look at the facts:
Lex never planned to kill Lionel Luthor, it was a spur of the moment thing. He was genuinely shocked at what he did afterwards. It actually kind of humanized him a little bit, when we saw how shocked he was. Was it terrible what he did? Yes. But human beings kill in random fits of passion and hate everyday, without it being premeditated murder. Often it's the sort of thing that many wouldn't ever do again, if they had the chance to do it all over again. I doubt Lex would ever do it again if he went back in time or something.

Lex didn't show that he wouldn't do it again. In season 7 he maintained that he thought he had no choice. And according to clone Lex in season 10 it was the best moment of his life.

Lionel Luthor on the other hand, planned the murder of his own parents down to the tiniest detail, and didn't even feel bad about it afterwards. He did this not because he hated his parents, or because they were abusive to him (They might actually had been good parents for all we know).... but because of MONEY! To me this is FAR MORE HORRIFIC AND EVIL! I mean, murdering your own parents for profit?? And the most damning thing is that Lionel Luthor would absolutely do it again if he could... hell, he may even cite some ******** reason like "Had to do it to keep the time-line intact... still a good guy, honest! even though I still don't feel bad about murdering my parents..."

I don't know if he would really. But Lionel didn't seem to like his parents. Likely because of the abuse. That doesn't justify anything, but it is probably one of the reasons he was more willing to kill them for the money, it seems.

It's alright to like a guy if you believe he's genuinely reformed. But, it's unhealthy to start making excuses for all the horrible things he did in the past just because you like him now. If he is truly reformed, then he would had owned up to the fact that... yes, he did do horrible things and is trying to make up for it.
He wouldn't attempt to justify any of the evil things he did, period.

I don't recall Lionel justifying the things he did after his change.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[Aurora Moon]

Lauraaralwins keeps on singing Lionel's praises, saying that for a reformed guy he was really keen.... and therefore trying to justify what he did in the past.

Lionel Luthor exhibits all the classic signs of being a sociopath, and that still didn't change after he was "reformed'. It was never stated that Lionel's parents were actually abusive.... so for all we know they were actually decent parents who just happened to be poor, etc.

so for a sociopathic kid all it might take is resentment over the fact that his parents were poor and weren't able to give him all the things he wanted. After all, to a sociopath it's always all about them... and they typically don't feel remorse about behaving so selfish when their parents are taking two jobs each to make ends meet, etc. That would be enough motive for a sociopathic person to start murdering his parents for money.

The fact that he was planning it for a while before finally pulling it off with the help of a criminal friend says a lot about him. That's premeditated murder, which most human beings consider to be far more worse than a crime of passion.

[Aurora Moon]

Lauraaralwins keeps on singing Lionel's praises, saying that for a reformed guy he was really keen.... and therefore trying to justify what he did in the past.

Lionel Luthor exhibits all the classic signs of being a sociopath, and that still didn't change after he was "reformed'. It was never stated that Lionel's parents were actually abusive.... so for all we know they were actually decent parents who just happened to be poor, etc.

so for a sociopathic kid all it might take is resentment over the fact that his parents were poor and weren't able to give him all the things he wanted. After all, to a sociopath it's always all about them... and they typically don't feel remorse about behaving so selfish when their parents are taking two jobs each to make ends meet, etc. That would be enough motive for a sociopathic person to start murdering his parents for money.

The fact that he was planning it for a while before finally pulling it off with the help of a criminal friend says a lot about him. That's premeditated murder, which most human beings consider to be far more worse than a crime of passion.

[Dagenspear]

Lauraaralwins keeps on singing Lionel's praises, saying that for a reformed guy he was really keen.... and therefore trying to justify what he did in the past.

Lionel Luthor exhibits all the classic signs of being a sociopath, and that still didn't change after he was "reformed'. It was never stated that Lionel's parents were actually abusive.... so for all we know they were actually decent parents who just happened to be poor, etc.

so for a sociopathic kid all it might take is resentment over the fact that his parents were poor and weren't able to give him all the things he wanted. After all, to a sociopath it's always all about them... and they typically don't feel remorse about behaving so selfish when their parents are taking two jobs each to make ends meet, etc. That would be enough motive for a sociopathic person to start murdering his parents for money.

The fact that he was planning it for a while before finally pulling it off with the help of a criminal friend says a lot about him. That's premeditated murder, which most human beings consider to be far more worse than a crime of passion.

In season 3 Morgan Edge refers to Lionel's father as a b****** and his mother as gin soaked. Lionel says that his father was abusive and did everything he could to establish absolute control over him. We could assume he was lying, but it's just fanwank without us having anything to say otherwise. laurarawlins has mainly been talking about what Lionel did after his change, not really justifying his actions before it. God bless you! God bless everyone!

[Aurora Moon]

She was basically saying Lionel was a better father than Jonathan... and then listed all the past abusive actions Lionel did trying to put it in a sugary light:

http://www.ksitetv.com/forums/showthread.php?60923-Am-I-alone-in-this&p=8145890&viewfull=1#post8145890

How is that not trying to justify his past bad behavior??? She was trying to normalize Lionel's emotional and mental abuse too by claiming that Lionel's intention was to make Lex stronger, etc. No matter what Lionel's intention was, it was still abuse!

[Dagenspear]

She was basically saying Lionel was a better father than Jonathan... and then listed all the past abusive actions Lionel did trying to put it in a sugary light:

http://www.ksitetv.com/forums/showthread.php?60923-Am-I-alone-in-this&p=8145890&viewfull=1#post8145890

How is that not trying to justify his past bad behavior??? She was trying to normalize Lionel's emotional and mental abuse too by claiming that Lionel's intention was to make Lex stronger, etc. No matter what Lionel's intention was, it was still abuse!

I did say that I didn't read past this page.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[computermaster]

Sorry to ressurrect this thread, but just rewatching season 5 right now and i'm on Lex's side all the way so far on the whole senator thing. John Kent markets himself as an honest, salt of the Earth family man. We know that isn't strictly true and that he can be just as dishonest, judgemental and irritional as anyone.

An early season 5 ep sees the overrated cartoon character Lois Lane trash Lex for even running for senator in the first place and blindly singing the praise of John Kent. Later in the ep Lois barges into the Daily Planet and demands Chloe write an article on his previous mental health issues to throw him off the race (she clearly has no clue about the circumstances) Pretty low blow for anyone, especially the "good guys". Further down the line, John Kent fires a guy actually trying to win him the election and get him more votes and hires Lois of all people to take his place. Would have been awesmoe if Lex won and rubbed it in right in the face of Lois and John Kent.

[moviefan2k4]

I think Jonathan's reaction to Clark and Lana getting physical was completely appropriate. He raised Clark to make the tough choices and be selfless, whether he had his powers or not. Martha was the more passive of the two, while Jonathan was the firm one. I remember interviewing John Schneider at a convention two years ago, and he said that's the one idea he personally stressed to Al Gough and Miles Millar from the beginning. They had both become fathers of newborns back then, while he was raising a teenager with Asperger's Syndrome. He told them there was a very real difference between parenting infants and teens, so if they wanted Jonathan to be the coddling type, they could hire someone else to play him. As for the character's anger toward Lex, I think it was mostly due to Lionel, but he also saw Lex making many of the same choices and wanted to protect Clark. He wasn't completely without humility though; its just that his anger got the best of him around manipulative people.