#4.15 "The Sinking Ship The Grand Applause"

[Aries83]

Well, I LOVED this episode!

It felt a little busy like last week, but I really enjoyed it—especially when Lee got her revenge at the end (Too bad Sofia is hanging on by a thread!) I loved that they wasted no time with Lee playing victim/damsel. I liked that she didn't hesitate to pull the trigger!

I'd hate to see Baccarin lose it in real life, though. She looked like a PSYCHO when Thompkins repaid Sampson at the end!

I liked the opening, too, and the fact that Martin was still alive (That DC comics nod was cool).

I enjoyed the Nygmobblepot scenes as well, but I'm not sure what the endgame is, at least for this season. To me, I got the sense that Oswald still feels something for Ed, but whatever. One thing is for sure: Ed Nygma can go! I like him better as The Riddler. He was very well-used, at least in this episode.

The Bruce/Selina scenes were good.

I was also glad that there was, finally, some movement on the al Ghul front with Barbara. We'll have to see where it goes.

I enjoyed the episode, though. It was an improvement over last week, at least for me.

What did everybody else think?

[Aurora Moon]

One of the better Gotham eps, that's for sure.

I was so happy to see Sofia go. Lee Thompkins really redeemed herself somewhat in my eyes when she killed off Sofia.

Also happy to see Selina and Bruce make up too.

[costas22]

It was one of those high octane Gotham episodes that I always love to watch. From start to finish, the plot was always moving and kept you on the edge of your seat. It was probably one of the bloodiest and violent (albeit, not gory this time) Gotham episodes we've seen. The only negative was that it was a bit easy to lose track of who's on whose side. The writers have created this issue by keeping so many characters around and having them switch allegiances regularly.

Some thoughts:

- For starters, it needs pointing out that Sofia is not dead. Like I said above, the show likes to hang on to its characters, so I'm almost certain we will see her around again. Maybe Ra's (on his own or from Barbara's body) will bring her out of her coma using the Lazarus Water. Or maybe she will just wake up. This is Gotham after all. Personally speaking, I hope she's not gone too long. She has actually become a good villain to have around, exactly because it's so easy to hate her. And in this episode in particular, I thought she came into her own as the mafia boss. Her only moment of villain stupidity was toying with Gordon for a bit too long.

- In regards to Lee, well, she got her revenge on Sofia and Sampson, while also saving Jim. Here's the thing though: I hope the writers never try to pass her off as a goody two shoes character ever again. If she didn't fall off her pedestal for good when she decided to offer up Jim to Sofia as a bargaining chip, she did this week when she tried to kill Sofia (she really didn't have to in order to save Jim) and when she crushed Sampson's hand. Revenge can also turn you into a morally challenged character if you take it too far. And that's what Lee is right now, IMHO. Regarless of her status as Narrows savior.

- Jim carrying his sin for the greater good instead of confessing it was hardly surprising. Gordon, traditionally, is also a grey character with skeletons of his own. Especially when he meets Batman. I would have prefered it if he came clean, but heeding Bullock's advice to keep quiet felt like a Jim Gordon thing to do. I wonder if we will see him back on duty next week. He took a lot of punishment in this episode.

- The Nygma/Penguin partnership always works for me. And it looks like they might be going after Butch, Tabby and Barbara from now on. The only thing that I found silly was the "torture" that Sofia's dentist dished out on Ed. I mean, we saw blood coming out of his mouth but his tongue and all his teeth looked just fine. Where did all the blood come from?

- Zsasz doesn't appear on this show enough times. He always cracks me up. "Lets go get a milkshake".

- Nice to see Dr Freeze back.

- Loved the Bruce/Selina scenes this week.

- Yes, it was great to see that they finally remembered the Barbara/Ra's storyline! Hopefully it will lead to Ra's coming back from the dead in full form and not just Ra's channeling himself through Barbara. I don't want to see BarbaRa's Al Ghul.

- "Detective Comics".

It's not possible, but I wish every episode was as eventful and action packed as this.

[Aurora Moon]

The only thing that I found silly was the "torture" that Sofia's dentist dished out on Ed. I mean, we saw blood coming out of his mouth but his tongue and all his teeth looked just fine. Where did all the blood come from?

I noticed that as well. I thinking to myself: "Huh?" when I watched that scene.
I think maybe they just wanted to work in some joker allusion there? because the blood around his mouth did seem kind of Joker-ish. *shrugs*

[Aries83]

it needs pointing out that Sofia is not dead. Like I said above, the show likes to hang on to its characters, so I'm almost certain we will see her around again.

I was actually disappointed when Bullock told Gordon that she was in a coma... For once, I'd like a character to be KILLED off and done with (unless it's Maria Mercedes "Fish" Mooney! ) I can take or leave Sofia, though. I really don't care what happens to her.

I would have prefered it if he came clean, but heeding Bullock's advice to keep quiet felt like a Jim Gordon thing to do.

I'm ok with him not confessing, but only because if he did, everybody in the department would turn their backs on him and then they'd be right back to square one (with corruption from within), which is just drama that isn't needed.

it was great to see that they finally remembered the Barbara/Ra's storyline! Hopefully it will lead to Ra's coming back from the dead in full form and not just Ra's channeling himself through Barbara. I don't want to see BarbaRa's Al Ghul.

I'd be ok with seeing Barbara al Ghul at least once...

I wish every episode was as eventful and action packed as this.

Me too. It finally felt like some of the storylines went somewhere for once.

One thing I forgot to mention that bothered me: Leslie and Butch seeing through Nygma's "mask." Last week, Thompkins thought Nygma was just plain old Nygma. This week, suddenly, she became aware of the split personality. Then, you have Butch—who—as they established, hadn't had any contact with Nygma for a while, being aware of the same personality out of the blue.

Ok? I could buy Thompkins being suspicious (even though she's never said anything on screen), but Butch/Grundy? They've barely interacted since he found his way back to Tabatha so how would he know about the personality?

[TyrantLord]

Aries: I'm starting to think that the Butch/Grundy thing might almost turn into another "Incredible Hulk" situation like they are doing with Killer Frost on Flash. I'm thinking Butch may have somehow been "conscience" inside the mind of Grundy, just not able to pull himself into control until Grundy suffered enough physical trauma.

I also hope Ra's come's back I full living form. Dr. Bashir nails it every time. He's probably my favorite casting choice for the show so far.

[costas22]

I noticed that as well. I thinking to myself: "Huh?" when I watched that scene.
I think maybe they just wanted to work in some joker allusion there? because the blood around his mouth did seem kind of Joker-ish. *shrugs*

I thought the same. It was very Joker-like. Nygma even laughed like him. Who knows. Maybe Ed's teeth are made out of granite.

I was actually disappointed when Bullock told Gordon that she was in a coma... For once, I'd like a character to be KILLED off and done with (unless it's Maria Mercedes "Fish" Mooney! ) I can take or leave Sofia, though. I really don't care what happens to her.

How do you even survive a bullet to the head? This show defies medical standards at times! Mind you, it wasn't as bad as when Smallville's Lex got shot on the head, survived and was even medevacked from Detroit to Smallville.

I'm ok with him not confessing, but only because if he did, everybody in the department would turn their backs on him and then they'd be right back to square one (with corruption from within), which is just drama that isn't needed.

That's true. It's the right decision, albeit a controversial one. That said, I think the truth will come out and the season might end with Jim out of the force again.

One thing I forgot to mention that bothered me: Leslie and Butch seeing through Nygma's "mask." Last week, Thompkins thought Nygma was just plain old Nygma. This week, suddenly, she became aware of the split personality. Then, you have Butch—who—as they established, hadn't had any contact with Nygma for a while, being aware of the same personality out of the blue.

Ok? I could buy Thompkins being suspicious (even though she's never said anything on screen), but Butch/Grundy? They've barely interacted since he found his way back to Tabatha so how would he know about the personality?

That's why I have trouble buying Ed's split personality storyline. Last week he magically became the Riddler because Oswald said his name. And this week, as soon as Lee saw him wearing his hat she recognized him as the Riddler. It feels way too contrived.

In regards to Butch, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because maybe he remembers his time as Grundy and remembers how Ed was struggling with the loss of his intellect.

[Aries83]

Aries: I'm starting to think that the Butch/Grundy thing might almost turn into another "Incredible Hulk" situation like they are doing with Killer Frost on Flash. I'm thinking Butch may have somehow been "conscience" inside the mind of Grundy, just not able to pull himself into control until Grundy suffered enough physical trauma.

That would explain it away. I hope they give a reason for his knowing.

That's why I have trouble buying Ed's split personality storyline. Last week he magically became the Riddler because Oswald said his name. And this week, as soon as Lee saw him wearing his hat she recognized him as the Riddler. It feels way too contrived.

Right, because she never told anybody (even a conversation with herself) that she suspected he had that issue.

In regards to Butch, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because maybe he remembers his time as Grundy and remembers how Ed was struggling with the loss of his intellect.

Yes, but did Grundy ever witness Nygma talking to The Riddler personality? If not, then how was he aware of it being away from Nygma as long as he has been?

Oh well. They might never explain it. I'm just obsessing. Hopefully, I'll find something else to obsess about by the end of next week...

[TheSecretVampire]

I really thought Sofia was dead when Lee shot her point blank in the brain....but of course it wouldn't be Gotham if they didn't have anyone suffer a near death and instead, she's in a coma.....she'll be back I assume at some point because no one is really dead on this show.


I might be alone in this thought, but I do like it a lot more when Bruce and Selina are working together than when they are at odds with each other. They are better together than apart.

[costas22]

Yes, but did Grundy ever witness Nygma talking to The Riddler personality? If not, then how was he aware of it being away from Nygma as long as he has been?

No, he didn't. I'm just guessing that he remembers Ed beating himself up about losing his high IQ (when they first met) and from that he deducted that Ed had a split personality. Also, maybe he heard about it offscreen while Ed was working with Lee to get his smarts back?