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  1. #16
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I'll preface this by saying that Susan might never have been loved by the Olicity fandom but the reason she was HATED I sincerely don't believe had anything to do with her being Oliver's love interest. No one thought either Susan or Billy was a long term threat. And Billy was wrtitten as a far closer relationship for Felicity than Susan was for Oliver and Billy was met with mostly a meh reaction. He was mocked and dismissed. He wasn't worth hating. But Susan was introduced from the start as a charcter to root against and it had nothing to do with Oliver or Felicity.

    Susan betrayed Thea. And nothing Susan ever did eaned back Thea's trust or friendship. Thea hated Susan and of course I'm going to take my cue from another favorite character on the show. So right out of the gate, Susan was set up by the show as someone for us to root against and that was before we saw she was digging into Oliver's secret.

    So step one, Thea hates her. Step two, Oliver is a risk by her actions. Then the Human Target flirts with her and gets her number to give to Oliver and the vibe there was weird. And then she starts chasing him WHILE digging into him and looking for dirt. She gets his security team to report his movements so she can time her appearences. She's shady as hell.

    And then Oliver starts to date her despite the fact that Thea hates her and Quentin thinks it's a terrible idea and the even Oliver knows she's a reporter that was trying to make her mark on the city by dragging his agenda as Mayor through the mud. She backed off but never stopped and everytime someone tried to point out why this was a bad idea, Oliver dismissed them and it made him look INCREDIBLY stupid. And that's what made the fandom hate her was what she did to Oliver's character.

    The show runners and SA were so hung up on the supposed twist of her not betraying Oliver that they didn't seem to care or consider how dumb he still looked in the meantime. He had no reason to trust her. The audience had no reason to trust her. Even after sleeping with Oliver, she still is meeting with her source and compiling her proof against him. And then yeah, Thea stepped in to take care of her when Oliver wouldn't and even though she with Felicity's help might have gone too far, they had NO REASON to believe that discrediting her wasn't exactly what needed to be done and Oliver burying his head and refusing to do anything about Susan just made him look stupider and stupider.

    And then when he turned on Thea for having his back I hated Susan all the more for coming between them and making Thea question everything in her life and what kind of person she was. Thea only went to extremes because Oliver was acting like such a dolt. It didn't matter that he ended up being right, becuase there was no reason to believe he should have trusted Susan so it comes off as luck not anything Oliver could take credit for.

    Plus Susan didn't help her case when while her rep had been trashed her responce was to complain that now no one would believe her if she published all she knew which made it seem that later when she said she wouldn't tell that is was more out of gratitude that Oliver got her life back than because she never planned on telling.

    And then she got kidnapped and Oliver didn't even realize she was gone for a week, lol and then he's like, well, glady you are ok, I'm dumping you now, bub bye.

    She was never a threat to the ship but she did do immense damage to Oliver in a season where Chase was chipping away at his sense of humanity. I hated to see him act so blatantly dumb when Chase was already doing the 10 steps ahead thing. And I hated how dismissive of Thea he was. Oliver chosing to be with Susan despite all the reasons it made no sense (other than she was there and he didn't have to expend any effort to get her) made him look stupid in a season he really couldn't afford to look stupider.
    Just a moment, isn't a famous trope among teen dramas and female romance novels that the lead character falls in love with the “bad boy“ of the story and he then changes his ways because of the intense love and no other reason what so ever? Oh, hold on, that only works in changing men, not women. The other trope often used is the target of the lead characters affection falls for the absolute b**ch who the lead will have to save him from and rebuild his confidence that not all women are like that and he can still find love that will enlighten and save his life.

    Odd that it's just fine to alter male story tropes to empower women (which a lot of times I find laughable, but now and then they're done well) but don't you dare change a female story trope. Quite honostly I could care less, Susan we all knew was only going to be in a few episodes so if they made her the b**ch or some tragic love that would die wouldn't make 1 iota difference because I was never interested in Oliver's love life, it was something I took in as a side note. Susan was the b**ch in this teen drama/female romance disguised as a superhero show.

  2. #17
    Not us united costas22's Avatar
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    Οver the course of Arrow no character, male or female, has made Oliver look as bad as Felicity has. And that trend didn't change last season. Just rewatch some of the Arrowcave scenes from season 5. Even when they are not romantically involved, she's still propped up at his expense by coming across as smarter about how to deal with situations.

    Susan wasn't my cup of tea, to be honest. But, I'd gladly have a shady character who makes Oliver look "stupid" because he is trusting enough to date her, over a character who 9 times out of 10 is written to be more right than him about Team Arrow business. Which should be Oliver Queen's bread and butter on a show, you know, about the Green Arrow.
    Last edited by costas22; 10-12-2017 at 01:26 AM.

  3. #18
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Οver the course of Arrow no character, male or female, has made Oliver look as bad as Felicity has. And that trend didn't change last season. Just rewatch some of the Arrowcave scenes from season 5. Even when they are not romantically involved, she's still propped up at his expense by coming across as smarter about how to deal with situations.

    Susan wasn't my cup of tea, to be honest. But, I'd gladly have a shady character who makes Oliver look "stupid" because he is trusting enough to date her, over a character who 9 times out of 10 is written to be more right than him about Team Arrow business. Which should be Oliver Queen's bread and butter on a show, you know, about the Green Arrow.
    How true costas22. Everyone knows a man in love is a complete idiot and fool so him doing stupid things is natural, but when he's shown to be an incompetent fool in his supposed area of expertise that's when he really looks like a total idiot. Felicity does that to Oliver so often that it's a wonder the show is still called Arrow. Oliver can't do anything right unless he gets approval or advice from Felicity, if he doesn't then there was bound to be a better way to handle things.

  4. #19
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    How true costas22. Everyone knows a man in love is a complete idiot and fool so him doing stupid things is natural, but when he's shown to be an incompetent fool in his supposed area of expertise that's when he really looks like a total idiot. Felicity does that to Oliver so often that it's a wonder the show is still called Arrow. Oliver can't do anything right unless he gets approval or advice from Felicity, if he doesn't then there was bound to be a better way to handle things.
    There was that scene in 5x20 where Felicity questions Oliver's archery skills "worried" that he won't be able to hit A DAMN HUGE air went, standing approximately three meters away from it. Oliver is the best archer in the world, isn't he? What's worse it was moments after antoher HackerSkillPraise scene.

    After PrometheusTrauma [tm] Oliver also wasn't able to sit down and have a converstation with himself about who he is, and how he is going to do his vigilantism after reaching yet another the breaking point. He had to be told that he can wear the hood again. And guess who was that person.

    One can say there were similar scenes with Laurel in S1/S2. But I've never got an impression back then that Oliver is not able to make his own decisions.

  5. #20
    Not us united costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    How true costas22. Everyone knows a man in love is a complete idiot and fool so him doing stupid things is natural, but when he's shown to be an incompetent fool in his supposed area of expertise that's when he really looks like a total idiot. Felicity does that to Oliver so often that it's a wonder the show is still called Arrow. Oliver can't do anything right unless he gets approval or advice from Felicity, if he doesn't then there was bound to be a better way to handle things.
    It's one of the reasons I ultimately turned sour on the Arrowverse in general. Instead of these shows being about heroes with sidekicks, they became shows about sidekicks. Seeing the titular hero be downgraded to make secondary characters look important got really tiresome. Felicity, Iris, Cisco, Alex, Mon-El...all fall in that category.

    And lest we forget that Oliver can be a bit *ahem* naive when it comes to the opposite sex. It's part of his character. I guess you could say he's shallow or maybe that he has the tendency you mentioned above where he thinks that he can help a "bad girl" become better. But even if we focus on that aspect of his character, I'd say there were situations during season 5 that made him look more stupid than his relationship with Susan did. For example, the way he handled Felicity's disappearing acts and ties with Helix was mind boggling. It took forever for the alarm bells to go off in his head and even then he went easy on her, well, because it's Felicity.
    Last edited by costas22; 10-12-2017 at 03:54 AM.

  6. #21
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    And lest we forget that Oliver can be a bit *ahem* naive when it comes to the opposite sex. It's part of his character. I guess you could say he's shallow or maybe that he has the tendency you mentioned above where he thinks that he can help a "bad girl" become better. But even if we focus on that aspect of his character, I'd say there were situations during season 5 that made him look more stupid than his relationship with Susan did. For example, the way he handled Felicity's disappearing acts and ties with Helix was mind boggling. It took forever for the alarm bells to go off in his head and even then he went easy on her, well, because it's Felicity.
    Don't you know that Felicity is a flawless angel among women, who can never be wrong, especially in her relationhip with Oliver? And if some of us cannot discern the halo over her head that makes Felicity SO much better for Oliver than ANY other woman he has ever loved in his life, it's because we're blinded by our own bias (just like our friendly host!). When we see an Oliver who seemingly cannot make one important decision about his own life without being guided by the infinitely wise and empathetic "angel on his shoulder", we rather feel that he has morphed into a shadow of his former self.

    Our fault is that we don't realize that Oliver is so filled with gratitude towards "his everything" that he has come to totally rely on her, and doesn't even register when she is low-key putting him down or making insensitive remarks about his five years of hell. We have also failed to grasp that Felicity is so hígh above every other "Arrow" woman that she can be reckless and make bad decisions AND still be instantly forgiven and praised by her boyfriend and team mates. From this perspective Oliver has absolutely no right to berate Felicity for the HELIX stunt, since it only proves that she is a strong, independent woman who forges her own path.

    Anyways....I suspect that some of the dislike towards Susan was prompted by the fact that Oliver had the audacity to show some romantic interest in another woman, while he should have remained celibate until he was reunited with his Beloved again.....despite the fact that it was Felicity who broke up with him and despite the fact that she apparently had no qualms about hooking up with another man for some sexual healing and emotional support. Of course, someone is going to call me a sexist and misogynist for this, but the show itself actually alluded to Felicity and Billy having a sex life (and why shouldn't they, since they were dating?). Anyway, I guess I belong to those people who believe that if the girl can move on, so can the guy, and Susan was too much of a ship stalling device for me to be upset over her "shadiness". Besides, I enjoyed the Oliver and Helena "love affair" as well, and she was a full-blown villainesse.

    I don't like expressions like "losing his b**lls" or "being emasculated", that are often used when describing Oliver's relationship with Felicity. On the other hand I find it so odd that Felicity is being treated as this superior being by Oliver, Diggle and almost everyone else in the Flarrow-verse (and the writers, but that's the same thing I guess), when I don't see anything that special about her, her intelligence or her behavior towards Oliver. It's like the fairly tale about the Emperor's new clothes....I feel like I'm being told that this woman is Oliver's perfect soul mate, but that's not what I'm seeing on screen. In fact, in my eyes their relationship is making him LOSE many of the qualities that made him such an interesting and engaging man/hero in the first place.
    Last edited by evaba; 10-12-2017 at 03:32 PM.

  7. #22
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    Don't you know that Felicity is a flawless angel among women, who can never be wrong, especially in her relationhip with Oliver? And if some of us cannot discern the halo over her head that makes Felicity SO much better for Oliver than ANY other woman he has ever loved in his life, it's because we're blinded by our own bias (just like our friendly host!). When we see an Oliver who seemingly cannot make one important decision about his own life without being guided by the infinitely wise and empathetic "angel on his shoulder", we rather feel that he has morphed into a shadow of his former self.

    Our fault is that we don't realize that Oliver is so filled with gratitude towards "his everything" that he has come to totally rely on her, and doesn't even register when she is low-key putting him down or making insensitive remarks about his five years of hell. We have also failed to grasp that Felicity is so hígh above every other "Arrow" woman that she can be reckless and make bad decisions AND still be instantly forgiven and praised by her boyfriend and team mates. From this perspective Oliver has absolutely no right to berate Felicity for the HELIX stunt, since it only proves that she is a strong, independent woman who forges her own path.

    Anyways....I suspect that some of the dislike towards Susan was prompted by the fact that Oliver had the audacity to show some romantic interest in another woman, while he should have remained celibate until he was reunited with his Beloved again.....despite the fact that it was Felicity who broke up with him and despite the fact that she apparently had no qualms about hooking up with another man for some sexual healing and emotional support. Of course, someone is going to call me a sexist and misogynist for this, but the show itself actually alluded to Felicity and Billy having a sex life (and why shouldn't they, since they were dating?). Anyway, I guess I belong to those people who believe that if the girl can move on, so can the guy, and Susan was too much of a ship stalling device for me to be upset over her "shadiness". Besides, I enjoyed the Oliver and Helena "love affair" as well, and she was a full-blown villainesse.

    I don't like expressions like "losing his b**lls" or "being emasculated", that are often used when describing Oliver's relationship with Felicity. On the other hand I find it so odd that Felicity is being treated as this superior being by Oliver, Diggle and almost everyone else in the Flarrow-verse (and the writers, but that's the same thing I guess), when I don't see anything that special about her, her intelligence or her behavior towards Oliver. It's like the fairly tale about the Emperor's new clothes....I feel like I'm being told that this woman is Oliver's perfect soul mate, but that's not what I'm seeing on screen. In fact, in my eyes their relationship is making him LOSE many of the qualities that made him such an interesting and engaging man/hero in the first place.
    Don't worry evaba, I get called those names and worse all the time so that now they roll off my back as if somebody calls me a guy. Really? I never noticed that in your arrogant opinion that allows for almost no other opinion or train of thought that I might be seen as such in your eyes. [emoji33][emoji12] It gets really easy to ignore evaba when they constantly throw it around willy-nilly at anyone they disagree with. Especially when you point out their own hypocrasy. [emoji16] When a man does what you said, it's wrong, he should be more sensitive to the woman's feelings and be more respectful. When a woman does it, it's fine because men do it all the time. That's not looking to improve society, that's looking for excuses for bad behavior so that one doesn't have to take personal responsibility for ones own actions and blame others if one is unsuccessful in any attempted endeavor.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 10-13-2017 at 12:41 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    How true costas22. Everyone knows a man in love is a complete idiot and fool so him doing stupid things is natural, but when he's shown to be an incompetent fool in his supposed area of expertise that's when he really looks like a total idiot. Felicity does that to Oliver so often that it's a wonder the show is still called Arrow. Oliver can't do anything right unless he gets approval or advice from Felicity, if he doesn't then there was bound to be a better way to handle things.
    I wouldn't mind this so much if Felicity was indeed right all of the time, or at least most of the time. But she is not. I mean, who chose and practically forced Artemis on Oliver as team mate. Did she ever apologize or admit to Oliver, who was against it at the beginning of season five. And that is just one example. Guess that is why I did like Underground because it is the only episode Felicity worries about being wrong and actually admits being wrong.

    Part of what makes Oliver so likeable is that he is not always right and knows it. He reflects on himself and at least admits to himself he is wrong now and then. And that makes him more careful. I am waiting for them to write Felicity

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    After PrometheusTrauma [tm] Oliver also wasn't able to sit down and have a converstation with himself about who he is, and how he is going to do his vigilantism after reaching yet another the breaking point. He had to be told that he can wear the hood again. And guess who was that person.

    One can say there were similar scenes with Laurel in S1/S2. But I've never got an impression back then that Oliver is not able to make his own decisions.
    For me the difference is that I never got the impression that Laurel did that for herself. She always seemed to do it for Oliver. But after Felicity secretly kept helping team Arrow while Oliver tried to make a new life with her I do wonder if Felicity just wants Oliver to be the hero so she can be a heroine.

    They made so many mistakes writing Felicity they really need to develop her character this season.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I don't like expressions like "losing his b**lls" or "being emasculated", that are often used when describing Oliver's relationship with Felicity. On the other hand I find it so odd that Felicity is being treated as this superior being by Oliver, Diggle and almost everyone else in the Flarrow-verse (and the writers, but that's the same thing I guess), when I don't see anything that special about her, her intelligence or her behavior towards Oliver. It's like the fairly tale about the Emperor's new clothes....I feel like I'm being told that this woman is Oliver's perfect soul mate, but that's not what I'm seeing on screen. In fact, in my eyes their relationship is making him LOSE many of the qualities that made him such an interesting and engaging man/hero in the first place.
    I agree. And I even think this is the same writing mistake they made with Lana in SV. Every character only praised her but we, as audience, saw very often that she was not as perfect as every character imagined her to be. The difference was that Lana actually did not see herself as the other people in Smallville, especially Clark, saw her - she DID reflect on herself (although it seemed to me that many watchers didn't realize this). I miss that in Felicity. She really thinks she is the most intelligent and the best leader possible and tries to take control whenever possible or impossible. But her intelligence is restricted to the computer. She is no all-round genius. And I wait for the characters in Arrowverse to realize it.

  11. #26
    The artist formerly known as "KryptonSite" KSiteTV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    I agree. And I even think this is the same writing mistake they made with Lana in SV. Every character only praised her but we, as audience, saw very often that she was not as perfect as every character imagined her to be. The difference was that Lana actually did not see herself as the other people in Smallville, especially Clark, saw her - she DID reflect on herself (although it seemed to me that many watchers didn't realize this). I miss that in Felicity. She really thinks she is the most intelligent and the best leader possible and tries to take control whenever possible or impossible. But her intelligence is restricted to the computer. She is no all-round genius. And I wait for the characters in Arrowverse to realize it.
    And now she interrupts weddings!

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