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Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "The Once and Future Flash?"

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  • Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "The Once and Future Flash?"

    What did you think?
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  • #2
    I only caught the last few minutes. I will share my thoughts after I get to see the rest. I think I have a good idea who Savitar is now though, unless it's a misdirect...

    Comment


    • #3
      They did a good job of presenting a future where the characters look and sound quite different than we've come to expect. The main problem with this episode is that it showed us a potential future that Barry is trying to prevent. And while I loved his determination to stick around and help out his friends, what was really the point of it? Barry will go back and try to change that future from ever happening. So the lives of his friends in 2024 will cease to exist in that particular manner. For example, he tells future Cisco that he will try to prevent his hands from being severed. That's well and good for 2017!Cisco but to 2024!Cisco it means nothing.

      I also wasn't fond of the "hero gives up on everything because he loses the love of his life" trope. Smallville took a similar approach once or twice and it's just a poor way to amp up the romantic melodrama in these shows. A hero should remain a hero regardless of what's going on in his personal life.

      Other than those 2 issues, the episode was fairly decent. It was directed by Tom Cavanagh, who managed to get some very strong performances out of the cast, especially Grant Gustin, Jesse Martin and Carlos Valdes. Haven't enjoyed the scenes between Barry/Cisco and Barry/Joe so much in a while. It also looked like Tom enjoyed himself a bit too much playing the horny best selling author. Even Keinyan was quite good when he portrayed comatose Wally.

      2024!Barry's costume looks great, but shouldn't he be wearing a costume similar to the one 2017!Barry wears? Because when 2024!Barry traveled back to 2000 to save his younger self, his costume looked nothing like the one he wore in this episode. Oh well. They probably have messed up their continuity too much in that regard that they can't keep score anymore.

      The Killer Frost stuff was fun. I did groan when they didn't show who Savitar is, but apparently we'll get our answer next week. Future Barry remains the leading candidate, but Ronnie's name is also being brought up because Caitlin seemed very trusting of him as soon as he removed his suit. But for all we know, it could be Dante, lol.

      Grant's wig looked terrible. It must be the long lost brother of Oliver's Island Wig.

      6/10 This season remains messy and disinteresting at times, but I see a couple of signs that the final 4 episodes might kick it up a notch.
      Last edited by costas22; 04-26-2017, 02:12 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by costas22
        Grant's wig looked terrible. It must be the long lost brother of Oliver's Island Wig.


        Maybe Sara's wig and Oli's wig had a baby wig.

        I don't like it. I hate it when the MC characters vanishes and everything falls apart. So what if Barry's gone Cisco's not gonna event new tech to take on Mirror Master?

        Future Barry is even lazy. I like the suit but he had a weapon that captured Savitar and he gave his past self the name of the inventor why not give him the designs for the weapon itself?

        Ronnie is the most likely candidate based on Caitlin's reactions. I don't understand how it could happen then again infinite Earths.

        I am disappointed with this episode I love seeing Killer Frost in action and we got denied that. I still hope Caitlin can stay Frosty but serve as an anti hero for/on Team Flash.

        I mean despite going full Killer Frost on us she hasn't killed anyone yet not even Future Cisco.

        Comment


        • #5
          I liked it.

          There were a lot of things to not like about this episode. Let's get them out of the way.

          1: Emo-Barry brought back the worst memories of Spider-Man 3. Who thought that wig was a good idea?

          2: Flash stops being Flash, so the entire city goes under? Like it or not, this shared universe has about a million costumed heroes running around (no pun intended). You're telling me that if Flash retired, someone else wouldn't step up? It's not even like Savitar was still out there, and none of the other heroes are equipped to deal with a speedster. That is something I'd almost buy. But that's not the case here. I have to believe Ollie would've taken 5 minutes out of his day to stop Mirror Master and Top from knocking over another bank.

          3: I still wish they would give a better explanation as to why Killer Frost is evil. It just doesn't make sense to me that she'd be this fully realized alternate person.

          4: They STILL have nothing productive for Iris to do.

          That all said... here's why I liked the episode...

          I've spent all season (and kind of the last two seasons) saying that Barry doesn't accept the consequences of his actions. He meddles with time whenever it suits him. The show keeps telling us he's learned his lesson, only to then immediately have him time travel again, proving he hasn't. This was, I think, the very first time where Barry acknowledged that he might lose, which is simultaneously the very first time I can think of where Barry has in any way admitted that there could be a potential endgame here where he doesn't consider the time travel in his back pocket a way out.

          The moment I'm talking about is the moment when he decides not to travel back to the past without first setting things right in the future. This is a future he has every intention of overwriting once he gets back to the past. He fully intends on defeating Savitar, helping Caitlin, saving Iris, and restoring Cisco's hands. If he believes in his heart that he will do anything and everything, including time travel again, to make sure this future never happens, then he has zero reason to set things right. Why even bother? None of it is going to happen, anyway. But he does stay. He does help. And I interpret that to be the very first time he accepts a limitation on what he is willing to do to save Iris.

          I've said for a while now that, when it comes to Iris, I fully believe this Barry will do anything to win, even if it means risking time travel again and again. That's the weakness hanging over his head that, to me, means he hasn't learned his lesson. By staying in the future to set things right, Barry is saying, "This future might actually happen. I might lose and I might actually accept losing."

          This is the first episode maybe the entire season where Barry did something genuinely superheroic. I am mildly encouraged.

          Two random thoughts:

          - It looked to me like the future Flash suit wasn't totally form-fitting. It seemed a little loose on future Barry. If I'm correct, I like that, because it implies that future Barry's muscles have atrophied somewhat from moping around STAR Labs doing nothing. If that's actually true, it's a really nice subtle touch by the costume designers.

          - I have absolutely no clue how Savitar could be anyone other than Barry himself. He's the only one that makes any sense to me, at this point.

          Comment


          • #6
            I liked the episode overall and am I convinced this and the remaining stretch of episodes this season will bring it back from the previous melodrama from earlier on.

            First and foremost, there are a million jokes regarding future Barry's hairdo, some call him Emo Barry or Peter Park from Spider-man 3. I called him a member of My Chemical Romance one time. The idea of a potential future where Iris dies and Barry retreats from everything as a result is a good plot point, but keep in mind it's only potential and unlike the times he ran into the past, the future isn't set so changing it is all possible. The point is Barry lost the fight this time even despite eventually locking Savitar up for good because he effectively broke him and the team. How he didn't find out Savitar's identity before that, I don't know.

            Speaking of the team, seeing their potential futures and the results of Iris' death was pretty grim. Seeing Cisco lose the fight vs. Killer Frost and his powers was pretty harsh, Julian trying to help her in the prison cell kinda reminded me of Mr. Freeze from Batman trying to find a cure for his ailing wife. Wally's was pretty horrible in the sense that he went after Savitar alone and got absolutely destroyed to the point where he's catatonic. Cisco says Savitar beat him so bad he shattered his spine but when I think about it, doesn't Wally also have a healing factor, or is that just Barry? Joe's was more than upsetting and proof he didn't keep his promise to Iris.

            One thing I took notice of was how future Barry was so insistent that 2017 Barry can't win and that Iris is gonna die no matter what so just spend as much time with her as you can. While it looks more and more grim for him I'm still betting he succeeds in stopping her from getting killed because aside from learning Savitar's true identity I'm certain there's one wild card factor that no one has accounted for at all and the lead that future Barry gave to 2017 Barry might be it.

            My one gripe is thinking we're going to see who Savitar is at the end, come to find out they hid his identity from the camera and now we have to wait another week. Damn you, screenwriters!

            Comment


            • #7
              Oh, and speaking of Savitar, a lot of people have thrown around the idea that it's Ronnie because Caitlin seemed to trust him immediately and that's someone she would trust without hesitation. She also mentioned how "you'll be so surprised when you find out" in the bad future and that genuinely would come as a shock. This kinda makes sense because when Ronnie died at the start of season 2 there was no body, Firestorm went up to stop the black hole, caused an explosion and only Stein fell down. Then again Savitar has gone on about Barry taking everything from him and putting him in hell, when nothing I've seen suggests Barry did any of that to Ronnie.

              At the same time it could still be Barry, but from an alternate future like if he stayed in Flashpoint. There's also it being Dante who's not so dead. In any case, upon a close rewatch when the suit opens up the person looks dark-haired but that doesn't really narrow it down since no less than 4 characters have dark hair.
              Last edited by AsteroidMike; 04-26-2017, 05:43 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                I also thought the hair on future Barry was ridiculous.

                That aside, I actually enjoyed this ep. it had very few drawbacks aside from the usual melodrama of saving Iris's life.
                The actors were all at the top of their game here... they managed to make me feel emotions when I saw how bad it got for some people.

                On Savitar--I'm thinking it might be Eddie. They might had dyed his hair black to throw us off the scent. That, or It's Ronnie.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Overall a good episode.

                  Barry wanting to do everything to save Iris -- and in contrast, Future Barry initially choosing to do nothing when he had lost Iris -- is, as others described, the sticking point in otherwise a decent episode. The whole city goes to hell ... because Barry gave up post-Iris and the band broke up? While it works thematically for the ep. and "our" Barry didn't give up ... logically, wouldn't it have been just as easy to call up an Invasion-style team alliance to try to set things right while Emo/Grunge-era hair Barry went off on self-imposed exile?

                  Barry wanting to set things right in 2024 before just heading back to 2017 was an act of selflessness, heroic even, when he could have just as easily shrugged and left for his own time. More of this Barry, please.

                  I'm leaning towards some version of Future Barry as Savitar, though being Ronnie would be a way for Caitlin to "catch a break", as it were, to reunite her with supposedly dead hubby. And she could still bat 3-for-3 in losing a love interest if Barry does beat Savitar or Julian gets a death-and-glory exit. I think it would have to be one or other -- it would be beyond cruel if she were to lose Ronnie again and Julian dies. I'm expecting the latter regardless, but with the former, I'd be concerned that they could have yet another reason to stir up melodrama -- Barry could beat himself up over Ronnie again.

                  Yeah, that hair was a guest star all its own. Perhaps the Island Wig did get that multi-series contract after all, as he's been Nate's alternate timeline hair too this season.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I forgot to mention how Tom Cavanagh directing this particular episode was pretty well done. I liked how in the future he was the only one who was doing good, though I'm sure he was having a blast making his character be a horny erotic romance novelist getting all the numbers. But as long as there's no Fifty Shades of Wells edition in the mix.

                    Regarding Central City being an awful place just because Team Flash isn't there, I have to wonder if Barry ever called on Supergirl to help with Savitar? Or the Arrow team? Or the Legends, assuming they fixed time by that point? Or Jesse and Harry? Come to think of it, I'm sure Jesse would've gone after Savitar again after he went full Knightfall on Wally.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AsteroidMike
                      I forgot to mention how Tom Cavanagh directing this particular episode was pretty well done. I liked how in the future he was the only one who was doing good, though I'm sure he was having a blast making his character be a horny erotic romance novelist getting all the numbers. But as long as there's no Fifty Shades of Wells edition in the mix.

                      Regarding Central City being an awful place just because Team Flash isn't there, I have to wonder if Barry ever called on Supergirl to help with Savitar? Or the Arrow team? Or the Legends, assuming they fixed time by that point? Or Jesse and Harry? Come to think of it, I'm sure Jesse would've gone after Savitar again after he went full Knightfall on Wally.

                      More than likely, not. These shows seem "afraid" or touchy to mention each other when they're not in the crossovers...or heck, even a small passing of something. If anything, I'm sure the lazy response would've been that Savitar killed all of Team Arrow and the Legends in their attempts to interfere on Barry's behalf. It's probably going to be the same reason why Oliver won't call on Barry to help him in the hunt for Prometheus.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheSecretVampire
                        More than likely, not. These shows seem "afraid" or touchy to mention each other when they're not in the crossovers...or heck, even a small passing of something. If anything, I'm sure the lazy response would've been that Savitar killed all of Team Arrow and the Legends in their attempts to interfere on Barry's behalf. It's probably going to be the same reason why Oliver won't call on Barry to help him in the hunt for Prometheus.
                        The Arrow team makes sense because they're going up against a "God" of speed or everyone else getting killed (except Supergirl probably) is pretty possible. It's also possible they did help but he pushed them all away afterwards and just doing their own thing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The ep was better than many others which preceded it. TC did a great directing job.

                          That being said, strictly speaking, Barry's not gone back to the same timeline. He took some information from the future with him. Therefore, when he arrives back at the point he left, with that new information, that should lead to a new timeline starting. You just can't take future knowledge with you, Barry should have declined the file or w/e it was. That's why I tend to dislike tt stories, they leave plot holes so big you could drive tanks through them.

                          As for Savitar, like Backward Galaxy, I can't see it being anyone other than a Barry. More specifically imo, the one from the Flashpoint timeline he created, the Barry from THAT timeline had to have been displaced somewhere, o/w there would have been 2 people existing at the same time.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Backward Galaxy
                            The moment I'm talking about is the moment when he decides not to travel back to the past without first setting things right in the future. This is a future he has every intention of overwriting once he gets back to the past. He fully intends on defeating Savitar, helping Caitlin, saving Iris, and restoring Cisco's hands. If he believes in his heart that he will do anything and everything, including time travel again, to make sure this future never happens, then he has zero reason to set things right. Why even bother? None of it is going to happen, anyway
                            From what I know you are mistaken here, because once Barry traveled to the future and back, once he came back he started a new timeline like in flashpoint, so now no matter how small the following differences may be, even if he would only need to go to the bathroom sooner because he didn't went in the future, that makes it so that this timeline is different from the other one, and the timeline that Barry traveled to in the future will now always exist.
                            So to be clear, even if Barry now manages to stop savitar and save Iris, the timelinewhere Iris dies will exist next to it, however in the new timeline Barry can't acces it anymore. So helping in the future there does have a reason, because those versions will continue and can use the help to get back on track.

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