View Poll Results: Which one do you prefer?

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  • You have failed this city

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  • You have failed this omelette

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  1. #16
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    It's not just the domestic stuff (although seeing the Green Arrow making cupcakes, talking about making chicken cordon blue and basically having Felicity as his sugar momma was very distressing). It's the mere fact that Oliver plays second fiddle to Felicity. He doesn't aspire to be a good hero as much as he aspires to be a worthy boyfriend to Felicity. Just take a look at their final scene in Broken Hearts, where Oliver is practically begging her to forgive him. It was one of the most irritating scenes of season and that covers a lot of ground. Yes, Oliver is less macho now than he was in season 1. But that alone would have been forgivable if there wasn't another character who ALWAYS has the moral high ground on him. A character who doesn't even deserve to have the moral high ground based on a lot of her actions and decisions.

    Thanks for share, Amarice. Metaphorically or literally, it sums up perfectly what's happened to this show
    And your timely intervention sums up my feelings exactly! The most frustrating thing about Felicity's character portrayal is the disconnect between how the writers want us to see her, and how she actually appears on screen. They make Oliver spout a whole flowery "fake-true" wedding vow, depicting Felicity as the most perfect woman ever, and then they show her in situations where she appears as selfish and unfeeling (or at least high strung and unfair) with regards to his feelings and problems. It is as if the notion that SHE actually might be in the wrong is never contemplated by the writers. As you say, they keep portraying her as if she has the high moral ground, even when she is clearly contradicting herself (e.g. her whiplash-inducing stance on lying about important things in a relationship).

    I don't belong to those fans who think that Felicity "has Oliver's balls in her purse", but I'm getting a bit tired of seeing Felicity lash out at him (or make snarky/snippy comments) over complex and complicated issues, and Oliver just standing there looking like a whipped dog. If the writers didn't implicitly expect us to accept Felicity's version of things, they could have let Oliver actually challenge her, rather than constantly praising her and begging for her forgiveness. I think it's this imbalance that has given many viewers the impression that Olicity is a dysfunctional relationship. If we add that Felicity is never called out for ANYTHING she does, but constantly praised in some of the most blatant examples of character shilling that I have ever seen on television, I'd say that she has turned into a textbook example of a writers' pet.

    Although the showrunners keep assuring us that "Arrow" will return to a season one vibe, I highly doubt that they will ever return to the kind of more nuanced character portrayal that we got in season one, where the key female characters were actually allowed to make mistakes and have flaws, and being called out by other characters for these mistakes and flaws. Thea often behaved as an irresponsible brat, and yet we had enough information about her difficult situation after the Queen's Gambit disaster to understand her behavior. Laurel was portrayed as headstrong and sometimes rash in her judgments, and yet in her case there was also enough on screen backstory to help us understand her clashes with Quentin and Oliver. Moira was one of the most fascinating examples of a character who is both a loving mother, who turns into a lioness to protect her children, and a weak woman, who lets herself be lured into doing reprehensible things in order to keep up a facade. Felicity, on the other hand, often feels one-dimensional, since the writers main aim with her characterization seems to be to provide some kind of audience avatar for the Felicity/Olicity fans who flock to their twitter timelines. It's as if they are so afraid to change or challenge the features that they believe made her popular in the first place that they simply cannot let other characters question her actions, or get into conflict with her. This is IMHO a very good description of Felicity's lack of character development:

    I would very much agree with you, anon. Felicity’s stunted character development can all be traced back to Felicity’s initial purpose of being a one-off character. Her role in regards to the show and to Oliver was continually upgraded throughout season 1 until she was a full-fledged member of the team and then…she was only upgraded in terms of her’s and Oliver’s relationship. First, she was “his girl”, then it became this overused ‘will they won’t they’ troupe, and currently they’ve gotten together and broken up so many times it’s almost hard to count. Throughout this “development” of their relationship, Felicity as a character never changed. While Oliver still continued trying to become a better hero (which stopped all of the sudden in the season 3 finale), I would really agree that Felicity still remained a quirky, nerdy tech genius as you said, anon, having no compelling arc for her character outside of Oliver. In fact, she even admits, that she “is losing herself in Oliver”, which, contrary to her mother’s opinion, is not a good thing. Her becoming CEO, struggling to recover when paralyzed, her father being a criminal when she fights criminals almost every day were all plots resolved in a matter of a few episodes, sometimes even just one. All of these could have been possible stimulators for her to grow as a character, but she forever stays and acts the same as when she was introduced in her first episode. To me as a writer, it’s almost unnatural; no one could have realistically gone through everything she has and still remain the same as she was when it all started. But, having heard all of the Arrow writers’ comments on the character and fans' opinions, I know why she has gone through no character development. People liked Felicity because she was that quirky, nerdy tech genius and unlike most of the characters on Arrow, most viewers watching the show can’t pull parkour moves like Oliver or wield a bo-staff like Sara. She acted as the relatable character, and, more increasingly, the fan self-insert character. Anyone who was a nerd could be Felicity. The only “development” she has undergone as a character is absurdly expanding her skills to cover almost every nerd’s skillset whether it’s computer science or history, Felicity has got it. She represents the “ideal” nerd, who knows everything and can do anything, and therefore is the glorified nerd Mary Sue. No one wants her to change. Therefore, she undergoes no character development in order to accommodate the needy fans and the lazy writers.
    Last edited by evaba; 09-18-2016 at 06:43 AM.

  2. #17
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    He doesn't aspire to be a good hero as much as he aspires to be a worthy boyfriend to Felicity.
    This. But in hindsight it's probably not surprising that the show under MG's leadership went down this road, b/c it was a romantic comedy script that he wrote that led to his eventual career change. I would assume that when people are trying to make a move into writing and they are not beholden to a particular writing job (MG was a lawyer), they write things that they like and that interest them -- so my assumption would be that he must have an affinity for the romance genre. No wonder when he was put in charge of Arrow he managed to turn it into a live action Harlequin romance.

    But it's really dragged the show down. For instance, I was intrigued about Oliver discovering he had a son. What would this mean for him, especially considering the kind of lifestyle he led? What would he do? How would a father feel, having to decide whether or not he could be part of his son's life? What were the risks to starting a relationship versus what were the risks to his son if he never met his father? Instead, b/c of MG's choice to focus on Oliver's romantic journey, he chose to make the William story a story about how this affected Oliver's romantic relationship, which I really didn't care about. The only "care" I felt was pure frustration that I was not going to learn about how this affected Oliver as a man, a father, and a vigilante struggling to be a hero, and instead I had to watch, like Groundhog Day, various incarnations of Felicity and her reactions and how it affected Olicity. How boring.

    I do think SA's recent statements that Oliver's most important relationship is his relationship w/ the city indicates that at some level (among the producers or whoever) there is some acknowledgment that the show has veered too far away from Oliver's struggle to be the hero his city needs, having lost its way by pivoting to Oliver's struggle to be the boyfriend Felicity demands. Hopefully there will be some course correction and the show can get back to exploring Oliver as a hero, and not as a subpar boyfriend and fiance.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverending Story View Post
    I don't think it's entirely accurate. We have seen domestic Oliver in the background after that. Like, packing lunch for Felicity and setting up dinner with Donna. But for me, that's not really the problem.

    For me, the problem is that, in the 17th episode of the season "Beacon of Hope", Oliver said this :

    Laurel : I know you're hurting, but you can't take it out on Curtis.
    Oliver : I'm not taking it out on Curtis. I just need him to see.
    Laurel : See what?
    Oliver : That this is not a good life. I walked away from it, and I was happy. For the first time in 8 years, I was content.
    Laurel : So why did you come back?
    Oliver : I came back because of Felicity. She convinced me that we could do this job, that we could save this city and not surrender to the darkness, but I don't--I don't think that we can.

    I think what tainted the character for some, is that, if it was only him, he would have not come back. I feel like we have a hero, who doesn't really want to be here most of the time.
    A great way to sum it up of both domestic in the background and Oliver's desire to put on a hood. Yea they've basically made Oliver a person who does not really want to be a hero and only came back for Feclity kind of takes a nice character blow of making it hard to like the guy.

    So it also further damages Oliver's character of his sole existence as of right now is focused on Feclity alone and no one else, based on "she wanted to come back."

  4. #19
    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    Honestly, I don't think Olicity is the root problem of the show. as others pointed out, it's HOW the characters are written that's the problem.

    Felicitiy's turned into such a Mary Sue.... if she stopped being an Mary sue then maybe Olicity would actually be enjoyable. In fact I enjoyed the Felicity character very much before she turned into a Mary Sue... I kind of wish she would return back to that version of herself.

  5. #20
    The artist formerly known as "KryptonSite" KSiteTV's Avatar
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    I loved Season 1 Felicity so much. Even before she was a part of the team, and helping Walter. Walter... now there's a character I also miss. But I liked that she was a light in an otherwise dark show, and I think it's a disservice to the show and to her character when they try to instead make her dramatic.

    I'm starting to realize it's also not Felicity that is the problem with Arrow now, or even Olicity; it is the feeling that, often times, the attention to that "ship" and the [theorized but denied] pandering toward it has been at the cost of everyone and everything else.

  6. #21
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    I've decided that half the time when people talk about whether Olicity is or is not the problem, there's a lot of talking past each other, b/c each person might be talking about different constructs.

    So far I have detected these variants when talking with others about whether or not Olicity is a problem:

    1. Olicity = the idea of Oliver dating Felicity ONLY; the fact that they are in a relationship

    2. Olicity = the in-show Arrow execution of Oliver and Felicity being in a relationship (how the relationship is actually written)

    3. Olicity = this is harder to describe, but sometimes what I detect is someone is talking about kind of the in-show execution but with a hefty dose of their own personal headcanon mixed in; they might start extrapolating from a scene additional thoughts that they perceive are going through the character's head (Felicity or Oliver) but if you (the viewer to whom they are talking) go back and review the scene you can find no evidence that this is factually evident enough that ALL viewers would agree on it.

    4. Olicity = the weight it is given in the show in terms of importance or focus. For example, to me b/c I am not interested in a show that is about exploring in-depth Oliver's romantic journey, I don't care how well-written Olicity is. If it is given too much focus or importance then that is focus that is not being spent on other aspects of the show that I am interested in (such as the hero against villains aspects, for example). Some people would categorize the weight or focus in terms of time (minutes on screen), but for me it is less concrete than that (again an example for me would be the fact that the William story became a story about how it affected Olicity). Some people might say that well-written romance in a superhero drama would by definition mean that it was given just the right amount of weight, not too much and not too little, but when I say well-written, I mean that the characters basically make sense and stay consistent or “in character”(allowing for growth of course) and that we understand their motivations especially if they seem to be acting out of character (and that we arrive at that understanding based on information the show has provided and not b/c we just “headcanon” something to explain it) - for example, if Felicity is supposed to be such a great wonderful gal that I should be rooting for Oliver to date, then she doesn't just turn into a paranoid stalker girlfriend in the Lot cross-over (I mean, WTF? I'd never want any of my brothers or friends to be in relationship with someone like THAT!!); and if Oliver & Felicity love each other, they don't just sit there with almost totally flat affects when Felicity gets up out of her wheelchair and then she just walks on out of the room etc.

    I usually don't mean the fact or the idea of Oliver & Felicity being in a relationship when I speak of Olicity, b/c for me what's the point of talking about something as if it is nothing more than an abstract idea when in reality that ship has already sailed?-- Olicity is no longer an idea but is a reality. So when I talk about Olicity being a problem, I am talking about what we are getting on the screen, as written, every week, and I also am often talking about the weight that I perceive it is being given in the show.

    ETA: out of respect for KSite - and yes, even shippers (lol) -- I removed my lament about my frustrations when attempting to have on-line discussion w/ Olicity shippers
    Last edited by Shelby Kent; 09-19-2016 at 08:28 AM.

  7. #22
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    Its not so much Felicity/Olicity that I see as the sole problem. The overarching problem is the shift in quality, whether that's regarding romantic arcs, action sequences, stunts, etc. Has Felicity/Olicity borne the brunt of my comments? Absolutely. But that's because its been pushed to the forefront. I would've been decrying the same thing had it been Laurel/Oliver, Sara/Oliver, Random Girl/Oliver in the same scenario. But the overall quality is the problem. Now, me, I do hope that Season 5 delivers what's promised. But we've been burned, two seasons in a row, by Marc, Wendy, and their team. So I'm going to take the road of caution and be wary of their 'promise' for a 'return to the nitty gritty' of Season 1. Besides, they've outright stated the focus on Oliver is only for the first nine episodes, and teased a 'big move' for Felicity in the back half of Season 5. So assuming we go with that as the 'split'....

    Oliver - 9 episodes.
    Felicity - 12 episodes.

    Now, with any luck, it would actually only take 5 episodes (if that) to tell whatever new 'focus' they have for Felicity. But considering that it has usually been after the mid-season finale they've choked up and decided to go the 'safer' route (romantic angst, characters cussing each other out over incredibly stupid things, etc.), we'll see what happens.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    Its not so much Felicity/Olicity that I see as the sole problem. The overarching problem is the shift in quality, whether that's regarding romantic arcs, action sequences, stunts, etc. Has Felicity/Olicity borne the brunt of my comments? Absolutely. But that's because its been pushed to the forefront. I would've been decrying the same thing had it been Laurel/Oliver, Sara/Oliver, Random Girl/Oliver in the same scenario. But the overall quality is the problem. Now, me, I do hope that Season 5 delivers what's promised. But we've been burned, two seasons in a row, by Marc, Wendy, and their team. So I'm going to take the road of caution and be wary of their 'promise' for a 'return to the nitty gritty' of Season 1. Besides, they've outright stated the focus on Oliver is only for the first nine episodes, and teased a 'big move' for Felicity in the back half of Season 5. So assuming we go with that as the 'split'....

    Oliver - 9 episodes.
    Felicity - 12 episodes.

    Now, with any luck, it would actually only take 5 episodes (if that) to tell whatever new 'focus' they have for Felicity. But considering that it has usually been after the mid-season finale they've choked up and decided to go the 'safer' route (romantic angst, characters cussing each other out over incredibly stupid things, etc.), we'll see what happens.
    Yeah I've seen Oliver/Laurel fan fics and even Oliver/Sara where they are presented of Olicty where it's all fluff and romantic angst, through most of it has been in Oliver/Laurel stories when I've even seen a few that make "Oliver as the bad guy" like even the show does in the case of Oliver and Feclity.

    Heck, I've seen a story where even one where Oliver/Sara run off as Olicty did in 3x23 to go start a family with a white picked fence and 2.5 kids. stories.

    My point is, that it's got nothing to do with the fact of it being Feclity/Olicty but rather like you said because that's how they are written. (The obvious thing of Feclity and Oliver being completely polar opposites and nothing to really mind them together, plus Feclity's controlling aspects all aside.)

    I decided to use Fan Fiction reverences since we all know that's what MG and the rest of the team loves to draw from.

    Like you pointed out with them saying "Oliver's focus is for the first 9 episodes and Feclity has a major one on the back half" well makes me concerned. Let's hope they don't make the same mistakes they have in the past two years where after mid season it goes downwards but I'm not holding my breath.

  9. #24
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Good points, JD. I agree.

    First, I think the quality of Olicity as it is being executed = grade CRAPPY. Then on top of that as you said they pushed the relationship to the forefront, as if that is the most important element of the show. My theory is that this over-focus on Oliver's romantic relationship journey (and I agree, I don't care who it is with) has meant that they allowed themselves to slack off in other areas which you've mentioned -- thus a drop in quality overall b/c they just didn't see those things as deserving of as much attention, by which I mean as much care in the writing and filming and production, as deserving of as much thought and effort in the planning and execution. They got dependent on Olicity and they got lazy about everything else. So: crappily written Olicity as the main focus and then lack of attention and care about the other elements --that's how I see it. And I think even if Olicity (or whatever romantic relationship Oliver might be in) was well-written in terms of characterization, then they still would have slacked off on the other elements (leading to drop in quality for fights, villains, etc), b/c MG seems to think Olicity IS Arrow (as does Ben Sokolowski and Beth Schwartz as evidenced by their "it's all about the Olicity " tweets).

    I do think some elements might get better but agree if they go back down the Olicity rabbit hole in the back half and allow themselves to slack off on paying attention to the other elements of the show that matter, then it could turn into another mess. If they go back into their Olicity addiction in the back half but somehow at least still remember to pay attention to quality in other areas, then while there would still be more focus on the romantic relationship than I'd like, at least there'd be some improvement in quality in other areas.


  10. #25
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    I really liked early seasons Felicity (roughly S1 - the tail end of S2 when they started setting the stage a more prominent Felicity esp. with Olicity).

    Yeah the shipping itself, the attention given to it, is a problem but as others have pointed out it boils down to writing. Writing stories and developing characters according to Facebook likes and Tumblr reblogs doesn't bode well for any character and the show opted to chase the flavour of the month as it were. They didn't seem to realize at least initially how it might impact the show, Ollie's 'hero's journey' story arc (really the only series-long arc that should truly matter) and how other characters would be affected.

    I realize that it's truly tempting in the fandom to portray Ollie as a mindless automaton who can't put on a green hoodie without Felicity's advice/approval/support -- and they've had more than a few scenes that would give a viewer this impression -- but I think it's fair to say that Ollie's own evolution from a lone wolf to Team Arrow shot-caller (which happened nonetheless, the moment Roy, Sara, Laurel etc. also joined) gave them an opening to make Felicity's role more prominent once they decided to double down on Olicity.

    It goes back to my view that they converted Felicity from a likeable (but minor) supporting character to a polarizing major lead character ... without doing enough due diligence in giving her the sort of character development a lead character should deserve. They've made some efforts in the past eg. giving her an origin episode but they don't reinforce this effort much. They default to angst and melodrama with her more often than not. Maybe the Havenrock fallout will give her a chance to go through some character-specific growth that doesn't depend on her relationship status, at least this is my hope.

    In a way, any other character not named Oliver, Sara or Slade gets burned because they didn't get the benefit of flashback development in the way those characters did. They got two seasons' worth of flashback development (technically four for Ollie, but S3 and 4 Ollie flashbacks pale in comparison to his first two seasons), it would be impossible for anyone else to catch up with them.

    Again, this is a writing problem: they wrote Felicity as a minor supporting character for nearly two seasons. She got jumped up to the main roster and did not possess the development needed for a main roster character. And their "efforts" to give her such development over the past two seasons are ... meh, especially once you add the 'primary romantic interest' albatross around her neck.

    If you need an objective opinion on what such an albatross does to a character in the Flarrowverse -- ask Iris on Flash, Kendra on LoT and Jimmy on SG. Kendra's already paid the price (consider her Exhibit A), Iris may yet survive this or not it's unclear ... and I'm terrified of what might happen to Jimmy if his job at CatCo is to be the main candle-keeper for Kara's love.

    So Felicity's patchy growth and the impact of Olicity are symptoms of long-simmering writing issues that existed prior to the whole Olicity thing and sadly we've had to see them come home to roost in S3 and S4.

    I also think Diggle needs to be seen struggling with the weight of killing Andy, at least for a few eps. I will roll my eyes if he gets over it after say, one or two episodes. Whatever the circumstances, it's still fratricide and no one's going to tell me he won't be bearing the weight of that decision beyond just one or two episodes. In contrast, we don't need to see him going woe-is-me for 22 episodes either. I'm of the view that realistically he will never truly get over the deed, it will be like a scar he wears forever.

    S5 might be a recognition of all this, a course correction, etc. Wait-and-see is probably the prudent route for fans. If they've learned some lessons, they will have to prove it on-screen this season.

  11. #26
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    I don't know what the current problems with the show are since I no longer watch it, but I know the problems I had with the show that lead me to stop watching came to the forefront almost simultanously with Olicity and there for it gets the brunt of my ire and displeasure. Who Oliver is in a romantic relationship with doesn't matter in the least, I just happened to see the decline of the show's quality at the same time as I saw the rise in focus on Olicity. Does that mean Olicity is at fault? Maybe not. Maybe the show would still be just as crappy now without Olicity coming to our screens but Olicity will always carry the brunt of the blame for me because it's rise in the show was when the show no longer was something I wanted to watch. Was Arrow near perfect before Olicity? No, but almost everyone on this site can agree that the quality of the show took a noticable downturn after season 2, the writing was getting sloppy, stunts weren't as prominent and as well choreographed, etc. Olicity isn't the sole problem of the show, it's where you can find where the shows problems became evident.

    Why should I like a character or relationship that comes to rise at the same time as a show I enjoy watching is no longer enjoyable?
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 09-18-2016 at 03:19 PM.

  12. #27
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    Catching up with the topic (was on a convention this weekend, so no time for the forum). Not much too add beside what most people here had written already - the main issue is the writing and execution, and overfocusing on romantic plots, which should never leave the postion of plot C or even D in the shows like Arrow. What JDBentz wrote about Robin Hood BBC is all true, I've watched that show. It was quite silly show, no comparision to Robin of Sherwood which is miles ahead both in the approach to the legend and exection. But it was enjoyable to watch, and despite the ridiculus plots the chracters were likeable (had problems with Robin, though, since my Robin is Robert of Huntingdon played by Jason Connery). The show had a real dropdown in the "quality" (which was never too high), and was messy also in season 2, although season (similar like in Arrow's case) was good to watch (Allan'a subplot! Also Guy of Gisbourne was such an intriguing character). I've never found an information why Marian was killed off - was it for a cheap drama (Robin quickly forgotten about The Love of his Life) or the actress wanted out of the show (heard about the latter, but have no confirmation).

    In fact Robin dies in the legends, betrayed by his own cousin (kinswoman in some versions - if I recall corectlly it was translated as a cousin in Polish version), a nun in a convent. She was scared of the consequences if the authorities found out that she helps him - Robin was wounded - so she bled him to death (she opened his vein, so it was slow).

    Robin of Sherwood killed off Robin because after 2 seasons the actor, Michal Praed, decided to take anther role - d'Artagnan on a stage. Instead of simply recasting Robin, the creators came up with a plot where the Sheriff actually sucesses in killing off the hero. Everything seems to be lost, when another hooded archer appears shortly after Robin's death and saves merry men from the noose. Later it turns out that it was Robert of Huntingdon (Jason Connery), called up by Herne the Hunter to pick up the mantle. It turns out that Robin is not one man, rather different men bearing that name. Nothing is forgotten. Nothing is ever forgotten.

    I must say I liked that second Robin more, because he clearly struggled with the legacy. He had also to give up everything - the title, lands and privileges. They are Green Arrow stories where Ollie has to do the same - Green Arrow: Rebirth follows that trope. Arrow could do that, starting from Public Enemy episode , but they took two steps back after making a step forward, because they didn't had the guts to truly do something what no one did before with a hero (at least on a small screen, because for Marvel heroes revealing their identity to public is nothing special ). This is why I need fan fictions to have a story following those tropes.

    The reason why people at this forum were generally okay with the concept of Olicity relationship at the beginning of season 4 was a hope that it will put an end to those CW love triangles nonsense. Unfortunately, it stared with the scene in Ivy Town showing Oliver Queen who still has SA face and looks, but nothing in common with Ollie from season 1, 2 and even 3. Because Oliver for season 3 still cared enough for Starling citizens to give up his freedom to stop Ra's from killing them at random. You have failed this omelette is almost a symbol of a bad writting.

    Now, because I'm lazy, I'll just quote my post from Tumblr regarding the issue:

    "In the case of a vigilante hero baking muffins and omelettes it’s not really the direction of development I wanted to see. I could watch Oliver repaing or making arrows in his Lair, though. Not to mention that his trauma and obssesion over the goal (that would be saving city and righting his father’s wrongs) miraculously disappeared. The problem is that such things doesn’t come and go, even if you have a loving and undestanding person at you side. Srlsy, I would say that someone who is a fan of the pairing in question can feel a little cheated that all the crucial moments when the characters build up the beginning of their relationship happen convinientely off screen. Ivy Town version of Oliver didn’t feel like the same guy from season 1, 2 and even 3 - a guy who was a very different from the classic GA from comics (classic; because there are also comic runs where GA is quite brooding hero with issues). Still, it was an interpretation of the character which I found interesting enough to follow the tv show.

    So my main issue is not with a specyfic pairing, or a lack of another pairing, but with how it was executed. It all comes down to writing.

    Going back to muffins and cooking. Instead of “you have failed this omelette” wouldn’t it be more interesting to have a scene with Felicity and Oliver talking about his experiences on the island (while cooking a dinner together, because why not?). Then Oliver could have mention something about almost starving to death before he was able to hunt something, having to eat ants or raiding the birds’ nests when there was nothing else to find. Doing everything what was needed to survive. With that no one would be surprised that he prefers his food properly cooked."


    I would say that Oliver Queen is not a fridge*, he doesn't need a source of light to have it inside. He had quite strong sense of duty or obsession over a goal if someone prefers to put it that way. Righting his father's wrongs, fighting for little guys, saving the city - those were the tropes which appeared in season 1. Quite ironic that as a serial killer Oliver actually cared for the oridnary people. If he can't be alone for some time in this reality (that would be the most likely outcome, but well, it's television, not RL) what they should aim for would be partnership, and partners giving themselves enough space. Moreover, since his first love is the city, a woman he would be with would also need to accept the fact that there would a lot of sacrifices along the way, and no possibility to truly have a normal relationship. This still doesn't exclude baking muffins in a spare time, see above; but fake weddings and five-minutes long declarations about the light and Love of the Life should be cut down, because really, Broken Hearts should be in fact about Cupid and Green Arrow & co trying to stop the crazy murderer, not (as Shelby noticed the pattern) used as a background plot for relationship drama.

    BkWurm1 has right as well - Oliver facing those faceless Ghosts in season 4 all the time or LOA member in season 3 makes everything repetitive. Bland. Boring. Also enemy with a face, someone who targets little guys is more realistic (as much as a show about a guy with a bow and running around the city in a green hood can be). How many memorable moments from season 1 or even 2 you can name? I have quite a number. The fight in Adam Hunt office. The fight with China White. The fight with Deadshot. Ollie being arrested shortly after starting his career. Oliver saving people kidnapped by the Dark Archer. Hall fight when the vigilante went to save Walter. The fight with Merlyn. Oliver's/the Hood's/the Arrow's relationship with detective/officer/captian Quentin Lance. Hard to say that Arrow as the show made anything the best - but The Cop & The Vigilante trope was explored in interesting, complex way in season 1/2. In season 3 what should put them on opposite sides would be a situation where Lance would need to choose between the law & duty and his loyalty toward the vigilante. At least that's my opinion, not that situation with him getting rabid over Sara's death and his private vendetta.

    Similarly like President Luthor - I liked S1/S2 Felicity. She was a hero at that time, without nonsense like shooting from a machine gun or flying in Atom suit. She was a hero when she took risks aiding a vigilante (25 years for hacking), or offered herself to be a bait for the Dollmaker. They killed her with the writting IMO. It has nothing to do with liking the character - I like characters which most of people watching Arrow were not fond of - like Amanda Waller or Carrie Cutter, or those from a far background, like Doctor Pressnall (1:24 in the show + 3 mentions - yay!).

    One more thing - I had a presentation about the downfall of the show on the convention I mentioned. All of you guys contributed, since I talked about the issues we've been discussing many times (during the course of season 4 especially). In the section about the fandom I mentioned this forum - a group of twenty something people who care mostly about the quality and writing, not specyfic pairing. (Mentioned also GreenArrowTV as a page delivering insigtful reviews and objective views).

    *came across that on Reddit forum long time ago, when people were comparing Oliver to a fridge. Don't remember all of it, apart from the light inside and a fridge not shooting arrows (as well as Ollie in season 4).

  13. #28
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Moreover, since his first love is the city
    ,

    Here's the thing, I know that is the party line we are hearing said over and over this summer but really, since when? Is it just since the end of last season?

    Oliver didn't come back to save Starling City because he loved his city so much, he came back to right his father's wrongs. He did it to honor his father's last request. He also probably grabbed onto following his fathers request because he'd done and endured a lot of terrible things and finding a notebook of names basically gave him a clear path to earn a little redemption.

    BUT once he specifically realized that what his father needed him to stop was the Undertaking, he was thrilled with the idea of leaving all his responsibilities behind and having a normal life. Even when he partially failed he still left the city behind. He came back specifically to save the jobs of the people working at his company not for his city. Once back, he did see that the city needed help and he stepped in to fill that void, but he still wasn't doing it out of a sheer love of the city. He felt responsibility for trying to fix his failure and he wanted to honor Tommy's memory by finding a way to do it without killing. He did I think believe that this was the life he needed to live but was it motivated out of sheer love for his city or because he was trying to redeem himself?

    Then Slade showed up and he considered Slade part of his mess but he was willing to leave the city unprotected by handing his life over to stop Slade from further targeting his family. The city wasn't his first concern.

    Slade then set an army of Mirikuru soldiers on Star City. Oliver stopped it but was it out of love of the city or because he felt Slade was his responsibility? I'm not saying he didn't care about the city, just that it wasn't the only or even first bit of motivation.

    At the start of season three, he's in a good place, the whole team was happy about cleaning up the city and the difference they were making, and Oliver starts thinking that he could maybe allowed to have both his mission and a life. But their date blows up and he decides he can only be the mask. I could have been convinced that he'd chosen his love of the city over anything at that point except that he again shows pretty quickly that his mission to watch over the city comes second to his loved ones. He goes off to face Ra's to save Thea, knowing that he'd likely be leaving the city behind. Yes innocent citizens were under threat but if he put the city first he could have given the LoA Malcolm back before his sister was even a suspect in Sara's murder.

    He comes back from the dead and makes a pretty speech about never going away but we find out that his first priority is not the city but a combo of revenge and his sister's safety and he leaves town pretty quick to start his training . One could argue that he knew he was leaving his city in capable hands but that same argument could still be made when he leaves for good at the end of season three.

    He cares about what happens to Starling/Star City but it rarely had been shown to be his first love. Now he doesn't have the girl or the best friend or the long time ex/teammate and his sister has taken a step back. What he still has is the city. He can focus on that now that everything else is out of his reach but I think it's not true that the city was every before his top priority or first love. So when Felicity gets the blame for taking him away from it or for showing him up in her love for doing the job, I have trouble because she didn't change Oliver. He was always like that.

  14. #29
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    @BKWurm1

    Ok first the party line thing is them realizing they've screwed up over the past two years or atleast since season 3, where it more of seemed Oliver has become overly focused on Feclity and not his city. In fact he even said "I came back because of Feclity" in a season 4 episode, so that's why. Now talk and all is nice but some proof once season 5 starts is going to answer of whether or not they are serious about getting back on track, in that regard.

    You do bring up some good examples of all the time Oliver has wanted to quit and such. However, like Oliver giving himself up to Slade is not so much he's not putting his city but rather the reverse. Oliver knows the threat Slade is to Starling as long as he's alive so he's giving himself up to Slade to hopefully keep his entire city safe and his family as well.

    For me I never really got the sense of the mission to protect Starling not being his first priority until 3x23 when Oliver drove off into the sun set due to being burnt out after 8 years of non stop fighting and everything else. That's the only way I can see it without going into the whole Oliver/Feclity thing and getting mad at the fan pandering.

    Then we had season 4 of Oliver being more concerned about cooking for Feclity instead of his city, like I pointed out above.

    Now they are trying to fix the damage done since 3x23 from that and really I blame more then Feclity. I blame the poor writing that led to this in the first place.

    Is it a little heavy hammered? Yes but then again this team of showrunners likes to take a sledge hammer to crack pecans out of their shells and don't do things subtlety.

  15. #30
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    @BKWurm1

    Ok first the party line thing is them realizing they've screwed up over the past two years or atleast since season 3, where it more of seemed Oliver has become overly focused on Feclity and not his city. In fact he even said "I came back because of Feclity" in a season 4 episode, so that's why. Now talk and all is nice but some proof once season 5 starts is going to answer of whether or not they are serious about getting back on track, in that regard.

    You do bring up some good examples of all the time Oliver has wanted to quit and such. However, like Oliver giving himself up to Slade is not so much he's not putting his city but rather the reverse. Oliver knows the threat Slade is to Starling as long as he's alive so he's giving himself up to Slade to hopefully keep his entire city safe and his family as well.

    For me I never really got the sense of the mission to protect Starling not being his first priority until 3x23 when Oliver drove off into the sun set due to being burnt out after 8 years of non stop fighting and everything else. That's the only way I can see it without going into the whole Oliver/Feclity thing and getting mad at the fan pandering.

    Then we had season 4 of Oliver being more concerned about cooking for Feclity instead of his city, like I pointed out above.

    Now they are trying to fix the damage done since 3x23 from that and really I blame more then Feclity. I blame the poor writing that led to this in the first place.

    Is it a little heavy hammered? Yes but then again this team of showrunners likes to take a sledge hammer to crack pecans out of their shells and don't do things subtlety.
    I understand where most here are coming from but BkWurm1 is totally correct. I've complained about Oliver's throwing in the towel time and time again back during season 3 I believe (or was it the start of season 4?). Oliver Queen in the comics might want to save his city at all costs, doing whatever is necessary, and fighting for the little guy but Arrow isn't. They paid homage to the character and laid the ground work to go that way but obviously decided to conciously ignore it. Either they're teasing fans with it now or have decided by making that relatively minor course correction they'll win some viewers back.

    Season 1 he runs off thinking he's a failure, Season 2 he's willing to run off with Sara and Season 3 he runs off with Felicity. His helping the little man in Season 1 seemed more reluctant than anything to me and was taken up more by Roy and Sara in Season 2 before being dropped until Laurel took on the BC persona. Arrow's Oliver Queen doesn't portrait the the traits his fans would like him to portrait.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 09-24-2016 at 07:04 AM.

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