View Poll Results: The reason why Oliver's fighting skills are so low in the season 4 is:

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  • He lacks conviction

    7 58.33%
  • All of injuries suffered took a toll on him eventually

    1 8.33%
  • He is out of shape (also too much of those omelettes and muffins)

    2 16.67%
  • He is too cold (the costume with bare arms)

    1 8.33%
  • Yao Fei's/Shado hood used to gave him additional skills (improved strenght, agility, perceptiveness)

    1 8.33%
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  1. #16
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    To conclude, while I agree that it would be great to see Ollie go out by himself sometimes, I don't think demanding that this or that character should leave the show (usually the character that we don't like!) is the solution. The larger team is here to stay, so the best solution is to split them up, and let them go on separate missions (e.g. Laurel+Thea or Diggle+Ollie, or Oliver by himself). As I already said, I personally like many aspects of the new team dynamic, and I frankly sometimes feel that the complaints about other masked heroes stealing Oliver's thunder is just another way of saying "we don't want Laurel on the team, please return to the golden OTA days when Felicity was the only woman on the team/in the Arrowcave"...
    What I'm tired of is that all the members are treated as if they have equal skill level and that has never been the case before. I love Diggle but never before was it suggested that he was Oliver's equal out in the field, yes he was his partner and trusted team member and skilled in his own right but never to the same degree as Oliver which is why he was always his back up and not the actual guy in the mask front and center. Suddenly the guy that usually stayed in the shadows the first two years and only came out when necessary and who in season three planned on quitting the life altogether so Sara would have her dad, this guy is in the field, front row, wearing a mask every single day. At the end of season 3 he wasn't sure he'd even offer Laurel and Thea some support and suddenly he is the unspoken leader.

    Then there is Laurel and Thea. Rather than say one is better than the other when their training is reasonably on par with each other or deal with the thorny issue of why one is called a side kick and the other an equal, both were made equal and while they should have equal say in how they risk their lives, they should not be treated as equal in skill level or strategic planning to either Oliver or Diggle.

    And yet when everyone goes out into the field, they all are together and yet fighting on their own. Each getting their time in front of the camera even if it is repetitive or doesn't advance the narrative.

    Also, why does everyone have to go on EVERY mission? They needed Oliver back because the ghosts were overwhelming them. They needed extra muscle and his experience in handling the unbeatable enemy. So sure, when they go after ghosts, everyone join the fun and I thought in Lost Souls during the rescue of Ray, they used everyone well, they had specific jobs and purposes and worked together but on different fronts.

    But it was absurd when they sent five people to steal one part from Kord Industries. There is a loss of intelligence in how the missions are structured. The fights have become all about brute force and since everyone is equal, if it's too early in the episode, everyone has to lose their fight - which keeps them equal - but then in the B portion of the episode when it is time for a win, everyone but the guy that has to stick around and be a part of the main narrative gets to have a clean win. So everyone but Oliver.

    So that means Ray and Laurel and Thea can all successfully complete their part of the mission and fight and wander off set but since the story still has to be told, Oliver gets a knife to his back so Lance can talk down Ladycop or Oliver has to slip up and let a ghost get the drop on him so Diggle can swoop in and save his brother in green.

    They are writing the spectacle of having so many masks without taking into account how the many masks affect the actual story being told and since Arrow remains Oliver's story, those dramatic narrative beats need to have him involved even when telling someone else's tale. So Oliver gets to be there for Lance or Diggle or when Thea is lighting Anarhky on fire, but the only reason narrative reason for him to be there is if he doesn't definitively win his fights, something that isn't an issue for the other characters. They keep racking up more clean wins while Oliver is forced to lose.

    So what's the solution?


    I'm not opposed to breaking up the team in the field as suggested but I do think unless they know they are facing overwhelming numbers, the team should be taking turns in going out at all. Go out in pairs or trios, I don't care the combo. Rotate the roster. It makes sense from a real world standpoint too since they all have obligations and responsibilities outside the mask that would need the occasional night off.

    Another suggestion is to clearly show that Oliver is handling more than his equal share of the fighting. Maybe they think they are accomplishing that, I do not agree.

    Finally, let Oliver win! Let HIM save the others. Let the narrative be written so if they need him there for dramatic reasons that he is not there because he's not a good enough fighter. Bring in random passerbyers to wander into the line of fire and get in the way. Let there be a clear excuse for why Oliver doesn't win when our experience with his skill level and abilities says he should win.

    That's not too much to ask, is it?
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 11-21-2015 at 08:47 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    What I'm tired of is that all the members are treated as if they have equal skill level and that has never been the case before. I love Diggle but never before was it suggested that he was Oliver's equal out in the field, yes he was his partner and trusted team member and skilled in his own right but never to the same degree as Oliver which is why he was always his back up and not the actual guy in the mask front and center. Suddenly the guy that usually stayed in the shadows the first two years and only came out when necessary and who in season three planned on quitting the life altogether so Sara would have her dad, this guy is in the field, front row, wearing a mask every single day. At the end of season 3 he wasn't sure he'd even offer Laurel and Thea some support and suddenly he is the unspoken leader.

    Then there is Laurel and Thea. Rather than say one is better than the other when their training is reasonably on par with each other or deal with the thorny issue of why one is called a side kick and the other an equal, both were made equal and while they should have equal say in how they risk their lives, they should not be treated as equal in skill level or strategic planning to either Oliver or Diggle.

    And yet when everyone goes out into the field, they all are together and yet fighting on their own. Each getting their time in front of the camera even if it is repetitive or doesn't advance the narrative.

    Also, why does everyone have to go on EVERY mission? They needed Oliver back because the ghosts were overwhelming them. They needed extra muscle and his experience in handling the unbeatable enemy. So sure, when they go after ghosts, everyone join the fun and I thought in Lost Souls during the rescue of Ray, they used everyone well, they had specific jobs and purposes and worked together but on different fronts.

    But it was absurd when they sent five people to steal one part from Kord Industries. There is a loss of intelligence in how the missions are structured. The fights have become all about brute force and since everyone is equal, if it's too early in the episode, everyone has to lose their fight - which keeps them equal - but then in the B portion of the episode when it is time for a win, everyone but the guy that has to stick around and be a part of the main narrative gets to have a clean win. So everyone but Oliver.

    So that means Ray and Laurel and Thea can all successfully complete their part of the mission and fight and wander off set but since the story still has to be told, Oliver gets a knife to his back so Lance can talk down Ladycop or Oliver has to slip up and let a ghost get the drop on him so Diggle can swoop in and save his brother in green.

    They are writing the spectacle of having so many masks without taking into account how the many masks affect the actual story being told and since Arrow remains Oliver's story, those dramatic narrative beats need to have him involved even when telling someone else's tale. So Oliver gets to be there for Lance or Diggle or when Thea is lighting Anarhky on fire, but the only reason narrative reason for him to be there is if he doesn't definitively win his fights, something that isn't an issue for the other characters. They keep racking up more clean wins while Oliver is forced to lose.

    So what's the solution?


    I'm not opposed to breaking up the team in the field as suggested but I do think unless they know they are facing overwhelming numbers, the team should be taking turns in going out at all. Go out in pairs or trios, I don't care the combo. Rotate the roster. It makes sense from a real world standpoint too since they all have obligations and responsibilities outside the mask that would need the occasional night off.

    Another suggestion is to clearly show that Oliver is handling more than his equal share of the fighting. Maybe they think they are accomplishing that, I do not agree.

    Finally, let Oliver win! Let HIM save the others. Let the narrative be written so if they need him there for dramatic reasons that he is not there because he's not a good enough fighter. Bring in random passerbyers to wander into the line of fire and get in the way. Let there be a clear excuse for why Oliver doesn't win when our experience with his skill level and abilities says he should win.

    That's not too much to ask, is it?
    Well-written and I can agree with every word.

  3. #18
    Site Groupie Shelby Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    So what's the solution?

    I'm not opposed to breaking up the team in the field as suggested but I do think unless they know they are facing overwhelming numbers, the team should be taking turns in going out at all. Go out in pairs or trios, I don't care the combo. Rotate the roster. It makes sense from a real world standpoint too since they all have obligations and responsibilities outside the mask that would need the occasional night off.

    Another suggestion is to clearly show that Oliver is handling more than his equal share of the fighting. Maybe they think they are accomplishing that, I do not agree.

    Finally, let Oliver win! Let HIM save the others. Let the narrative be written so if they need him there for dramatic reasons that he is not there because he's not a good enough fighter. Bring in random passerbyers to wander into the line of fire and get in the way. Let there be a clear excuse for why Oliver doesn't win when our experience with his skill level and abilities says he should win.

    That's not too much to ask, is it?
    I like these suggestions, all three, but especially the latter two -- good ideas.

  4. #19
    Not us united costas22's Avatar
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    To make his team mates shine more.

  5. #20
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I think there's definitely a bit of weakening of Ollie's abilities to make it more equal footing and --fair-- for lack of a better word, for the rest of Team Arrow. This is similar to what they've done with Superman in the JLU animated series. Supes always seemed to be at 50%-75% strength during their battles. In many situations, full-strength Superman wouldn't even had needed the other teammates, he'd get the job done on his own. And I think this was to emphasize that only the "team" aka the JLU working together could defeat the opponent or crisis. I believe part of the reason Ollie seems less capable is for this purpose. It also works on the flip side -- in order to make an opponent or crisis more of a threat, Ollie is being made to be less than capable of taking it on by himself.
    Realistically speaking Sups could easily took out all the enemies by himself, and the rest could join Avengers for shawarma. Still, to refer to other shows - I don't recall Robin in "Robin of Sherwood" being made less and less capable despite having a team.

    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who finds this new, happy and domesticated "Cordon Bleu" Oliver a bit of a bore! It's like Oliver's character portrayal lost quite a lot of its complexity when the writers decided that the love of a worthy woman is enough to heal a man with a severe case of postraumatic stress AND turn a former serial killer into a model boyfriend! I'm not a big fan of this new Ollie, because I think he's pretty one-dimensional without his "edge". Maybe that's why I'm turning to the Marvel Netflix universe with their messed-up, but still likable heroes and heroines.
    It's good that season 1 and 2 can be treated as a story which wraps up more or less, or at least brings Oliver to a certain point. As for the rest I keep thinking that I'm watching a fanfic or something.

    Yes, I also appreciate Netflix series. I liked Daredevil and I'm looking forward to season 2. Haven't seen Jessica Jones yet (didn't have time) but I've heard it's good.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I'm not opposed to breaking up the team in the field as suggested but I do think unless they know they are facing overwhelming numbers, the team should be taking turns in going out at all. Go out in pairs or trios, I don't care the combo. Rotate the roster. It makes sense from a real world standpoint too since they all have obligations and responsibilities outside the mask that would need the occasional night off.

    Another suggestion is to clearly show that Oliver is handling more than his equal share of the fighting. Maybe they think they are accomplishing that, I do not agree.

    Finally, let Oliver win! Let HIM save the others. Let the narrative be written so if they need him there for dramatic reasons that he is not there because he's not a good enough fighter. Bring in random passerbyers to wander into the line of fire and get in the way. Let there be a clear excuse for why Oliver doesn't win when our experience with his skill level and abilities says he should win.

    That's not too much to ask, is it?
    Very good points, I agree with all of them. They really should give Ollie a chance to actually save a day once a while.

    As for the team working in smaller teams - it's definitely what they should do. I doubt anyone here will remember this one, but there was a short-lived tv show "Magnificent Seven", based on the film under the same title. As the title says, there were seven main heroes (protecting a city). And I bring it here as an example, because in that show the showrunners knew that they don't necessary need all seven in every single scenes. Some took the lead in plot A, others had a part in plot B and C. Sometimes one of them got in the trouble and had to deal with it on his own and the others appeared later in the story.

  6. #21
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    So, it seems that the suit was to blame after all. Long-sleeve jacket = badass. I dread to think what would happen if Ollie had The Original Hood back.

  7. #22
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Off topic I recently discovered a Korean film you might be interested in called “War of the Arrow“. A decent movie where archery isn't just a cameo but actually a vital element in the story. Even fantastical/absurd elements are attempted to be explained in a way that almost makes sense.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 12-02-2016 at 05:54 AM.

  8. #23
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    They basically showed how Oliver already had really good fighting skills in the beginning. But then he ran into Malcolm, and Malcolm was better. But he improved and beat Malcolm. The same happened with Slade and Ra'S Al Ghul. Especially since Ra'S killed him without any real effort. But later on he trained Oliver. Meaning all the training Oliver had on the island and throughout the show, his fighting skills should be superior to just about anybody else in the show. So the only thing to blame is lame writing. Just like you all probably noticed, there is more ******** and the quality of the show is getting worse....

  9. #24
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    Salmon Ladder

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post


    she always did like him best when he was working the salmon ladder....)
    Hey guys, I'm working on something I want to get your opinion on. I'm thinking of starting a business selling a freestanding 10 rung salmon ladder for under $200. Do you think Arrow fans would want to get one and be able to exercise like Oliver? It would be free standing, and about 10 rungs high. What do you think?

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