The Felicity Smoak Discussion Thread

[Shelby Kent]

I was fine with the scene where Barry gave Oliver rat poison in season two but then I learned about warfarin when a family member had blood clots and now I know that it won't act that fast so I cringe every time I see that scene knowing just a little too much to accept it as plausible.

Definitely, if you have a medical background there is pretty much no show on TV AT ALL that you can watch without suspending disbelief. Eventually, that is just your default mode for all shows and you don't even have to remind yourself to do it. But even if you try to ignore the stuff you see, you can still be very distracted when you least expect it. For instance, I have become totally blase about watching everyone get injections and .000000001 second after the needle pierces the skin, the cure has taken effect! I just nod my head and say,"mmm hmmm....yeah, that's right....problem solved, he's cured...now on to our next scene...." But once, I found myself watching a scene with Ray in the hospital and all I could think about was,"Why is he in a hospital room and he is on a stretcher and not a bed? Would the hospital not get fined for what could be a patient safety or quality issue? What is going on with Material Services that they don't have a bed for him? And he is in a room... it's not like he's camped out in the ED or a procedure room....and wouldn't some obsequious hospital VP somewhere be having a hissy fit that a local VIP businessman is on a stretcher and not a bed!" I barely noticed what the characters were talking about, I was so obsessed with that darn stretcher

In fact, in another show, a more realistic-type show, a character was in hospital and there was a piece of equipment in the room that was just spot-on for the kind of injuries sustained, I don't think I've ever seen another show think to include it for a common injury (severe beating, rib fractures) -- so the fact that the show did such a good job with accuracy was so shocking to me (b/c I just have such low expectations always) -- well seeing that they got something so right was so distracting that I forgot to pay attention to what was going on in the scene, and I had to go back and rewatch the scene!

I always think about what it must be like for people who are IT experts, and martial arts experts, and just all the other kinds of other experts/jobs/careers on all kinds of things we see in all the shows we watch and how funny it must seem to them watching various shows.....

[BkWurm1]

ShelbyKent - First, I should have clarified in my post that when I referred to work, I consider her work in Arrowcave & team Arrow to be work. Not just what she does for Ray. She doesn’t get paid for Arrow stuff (I guess?) but what she does is serious business and it is no less work than when medical & relief workers volunteer to go on rescue/humanitarian relief missions where earthquakes, tsunamis etc occur.

I agree that it is serious work but I also think that there is a big difference in the way she and her “co-workers” would even be expected to treat each other since they are IMO a lot more than co-workers. Emotions from all of them have spilled all over the lair as have tempers. I see their interaction when not strictly in or during an op as more of what I’d expect to see with a family. That’s the standard I’d expect. They are partners bringing their distinct viewpoints and attitudes and all their baggage too cause there is no one else they can share it with -though that started changing with Diggle having Lyla.

I don’t have any expectations or even a desire to see them treat each other in an “appropriate” work manner EXCEPT in the middle of an operation and I while I remember Felicity sniffing into the com and have a quaver in her voice in the very final episode, I’m not remembering that coming up ever before. Even during her disagreement with Diggle and Roy about closing the door, she was scared and half convinced they were going to die in front of her eyes but she didn’t let them now it in the field.

Oliver doubled down on never being with the woman he loved while on the coms trying to talk down Carrie Cutter and Felicity is seen with tears in her eyes, but Diggle had to tell Oliver about it, nothing came over the coms to alert him to it. She was the one in the first half of the season trying to make nice while he was giving her the cold shoulder. In the second half, when he first came back she walked away rather than make a scene but HE followed and pushed. It was though after the mission. She also yelled at him in the lair in between missions when they were dealing with the power struggle in the lair (and she was speaking for all of them and Oliver DID hear her and back off) She also dropped a couple snide remarks between missions too right after Oliver’s return but again, she’s pissed and it’s more a family dynamic where she’s free to be pissed IMO.

Now there was a scene in “Sara” where she and Oliver get in a fight about being 100% and she accuses him of not having any feelings but I’m doing my best not to hold it against either of them. They both were off base but Oliver was as messed up emotionally as Felicity. She cried and he got cold. Neither were thinking straight (or he’d know how dumb he sounded with that “I can’t grieve so the rest of you can”. Dude, you flat out AREN’T letting Felicity grieve if you are expecting instant “A” game and Sara’s death to have zero effect on Felicity. ) So I won’t hold that scene as an example of her letting her emotions get in the way at “work” since Oliver lost it too and again, it wasn’t in the middle of an op.

There is one example that I do think fits your issues (after Ray found out who the Green Arrow was) and I’ll get to that in a later post, but otherwise, can you think of any time it happened? I don’t think it did. I think during any “work” situations minus the instances mentioned, she controlled her emotions as much as she ever has which is a level no one has ever had any complaints about.

I do agree that the stressful events have been increasing in number but the problem is, with the nature of Arrow work, one can’t be sure that things (crises etc) will get better.

But the chances of them being so very personal are unlikely. Let’s take for example, Thea’s “death”. Oliver is devastated naturally and Felicity is fond of Thea and she cried for Moira for Oliver even though she didn’t like the woman. For a lot of people, this would be a stressful situation and I’m sure it was for her too but it wasn’t so personal that it left her super emotional or impacted her being able to accomplish what was needed in a calm manner.

When she realized that Malcolm was serious and the LP was really what they were going to do then she cut the crap, insisted she was going too, got the transport, faked the papers, convinced the hospital to release Thea and transport her to the airport. She can handle and thrive under stressful life and death situations. We saw it in the years before and smack dab in the middle of a very trying and personally trying year. She didn’t even balk at Malcolm coming. She was the one comforting Oliver all the way over there.

It is very likely that they could stay at the same level, if not escalate. In which case, if by S3 it has been difficult for her to handle the stress, then how will she have the reserves to take on yet more stress in seasons to come? (Hopefully time off with Ollie will help and serve as a sabbatical…but refueling from sabbaticals can last only so long if things start ramping back up…).

It really is about reserves. The sabbatical would allow for her reserves to be refueled and just that break, something we haven’t had any sign of her previously in the last three years taking in ANY form, should make a huge difference. So I’m first saying that Felicity comes with deep emotional reserves and that it took an intense series of very personal sorrows, betrayals and heartbreaks – that were unrelenting – to really drain them. Felicity was grieving after Oliver’s death but she’d already found a way to tap into her normally steady and positive outlook on life a week after he died and that was after the rejection, Sara’s death, Cooper’s betrayal, her mother’s life being threatened, and Oliver saying loved her right before going off to die.

And she was still doing ok by anyone’s standards. It took all the other crap to fall on her before she actually started to use up all her reserves. I just don’t see her being in those circumstances again, but even if she was, she has a much better support system now. She actually has someone she can turn to and get comfort from and in Season three it looked like she had to go to Central City to even talk to a friend.

I also think that what Felicity might have learned from this past year is that she had to take time for herself to feed those reserves rather than let herself be put in a situation where she uses them all up supporting everyone else. That was EBR’s one wish, hope, belief for season 4’s Felicity so I feel like she’s got a good chance of making that happen.

**
Given that Felicity has experienced so much stress, what is your assessment of what she has experienced in comparison to others? I ask this b/c in a work setting it is highly possible that a colleague will experience a great deal of stress while others are just kind of plugging along. But in case of Team Arrow, seems like everyone is under a lot of stress (Laurel lost her sister as you point out…), so I’m not sure that I would use her “more emotional” reaction as an objective indicator that her stress was more so than the others; it is possible that various team members experienced just as much if not more stress yet did not react in the same way we saw Felicity react….

Laurel channeled her stress into fighting. Oliver pushed it into revenge against Ra’s, Diggle was in the best position with his family to find comfort and solace, Quentin is now drinking again (I hope he’s done by Oct) Ray instead of really dealing with his grief and anger he decided to throw money at the problem and build a super suit. Thea hooked up with psycho dad to make her not feel like a victim. I said that I thought Felicity actually dealt with her emotions rather than subvert them in something else. Laurel, Oliver, Thea, Quentin and even Ray – they all found ways to avoid their feelings. They are doing their best NOT to feel them. And it’s all going to come at a cost later down the road.

Roy was messed up about the cop that he killed. He tried to help his family anonymously but he was still racked by guilt. He was able to get some of his feelings out in the field but it took trading his whole life in before he started to feel at peace again.

Felicity is IMO the only one that was actually processing her grief and anger and hurt in the moment rather than putting it off for later so just by that, she probably was feeling it more but more than that I do think she had more dumped on her pain wise this season than anyone else.


Part of that assessment include how long they've had to carry the weight of there pain. Thea lost her mom last season and tuned to Malcolm to help her channel her helplessness and fear. She kind of thought she was doing pretty good. She rolled with her kidnapping, was fearless about facing the Loa with her dad and then was accepting of Oliver as the GA. Then she did find out about how she was used as a pawn. but that doesn't happen until 3-14. She also thinks Roy died in 3-19 and she had to deal with Oliver going away but she got Roy back and was too busy being dead to really deal with her daddy issues and thinking Oliver was lost to her only happened for a few episodes and she was totally spared thinking her brother was letting her die. Pain yes, but a shorter time period and fewer events to process and she's barely starred dealing with them.


Laurel lost her sister. Sad yup, even tragic. I’m sure she loved Sara but Laurel wasn’t that close to her. The time line just doesn’t allow for it. She barely was getting back into any kind of relationship with Sara before Sara had to go back to the LoA and while they clearly kept in contact and the good feelings were there between them, they just couldn’t have spent much time together. So as tragic as Sara’s loss was for Laurel, she’s not going to experience that big of a hole in her life. AND frankly, she’d had five years to practice and get used to Sara being dead. This time might have been different since one, she actually liked her sister this time around and two, Laurel was already in an emotionally tenuous place with her addiction issues and dealing Tommy’s death.

What Laurel is dealing with is not nothing but she barely even seemed troubled by Oliver being presumably dead so we have no reason to think she’s been deeply affected by that. She toward the end of the season became estranged with her Dad but for many weeks she assumed it was just going to blow over like always, so rough but he's still alive and she has every reason to think time will fix it. So in addition to having an immediate place to take and bury her feelings under all she’s doing to become a mask, she IMO isn’t experiencing as many sorrows in as such a short time. She has time to recover from them.

Oliver IS messed up and should be getting hit harder than Felicity (and that's just counting this year stuff). He broke his own heart, not only loses Sara again, but sees his destiny in her death, “dies”, loses his mind a bit over Ra’s beating him – not cool man – you almost got Dig killed cause you were being so pig headed, becomes hated by the city he loves, loses Quentin’s respect, sees Roy trade his life for his freedom, sees his sister lay dying, experiences all the wonder of being with the woman he loves (well after that couple months where she was ticked and dating another dude) and then has to send her away and go undercover for some unknown time period with only Malcolm Merlyn – the guy that got him into the whole mess in the first place as a contact. He tops his list by betraying his friends and losing his “brother’s” trust. He almost manages to commit suicide which was the closest thing he hoped at that point for a win. Yeah, Oliver should be a mess and he is. We know he is. But he also tells the audience that he’s not letting himself feel anything with Sara’s death and he’s the one that denied himself happiness with the woman who he was in love with and he did take some comfort in saving his sister and positioning himself so he can take on Ra’s. So he actually sneaks a few wins in there

But the bigger issue is that he’s saving up his trauma for later and that’s on top of having learned how to be hardened. He thinks feeling something is actually a weakness but it’s not and that’s the lesson that he’s just figuring out at the end of the season. (Honestly, I think it is a lesson that too many people in general haven’t yet figured out. )

Then there is Quentin. He’s lost Sara again and he feels like he’s also lost Laurel because she betrayed him with her silence and he also feels betrayed by Oliver for not telling him about Sara. Quentin is in pain but he’s only even finds out about Sara in 3-13. He has lost a child and I won’t try to quantify that but again, he’s medicating his pain with alcohol so he’s not feeling it as strongly AND he only has to deal with the one set of issues and nothing more is added to it.

That’s the difference and why I say Felicity probably feels the pain more – ‘cause she is actually letting herself feel it and is processing it rather than burying it and I also think that she’s had more personal heartbreak in a constant stream over a longer period and without let up. (Not including Oliver, but he’s a freak, lol) Episode 1-Episode 23. She has a few breaks in the first half and a couple in the back but that's it. In season three she can't seem to go more than two episode without something very personally painful happening. Oliver and his constant rejecting, dangled maybes, "deaths", near deaths, attempted deaths, and worse than deaths caused a lot of her pain but Oliver being the main purveyor of pain doesn't lessen it. That rollercoaster of hearbreak, hope, misery and hopelessness is a ride nobody else had to go through in season three. Or at least their coasters were on shorter tracks or allowed for longer pit stops and distractions along the way.

[evaba]

@Shelby Kent, kudos for a great feminist analysis of how we women should learn to communicate in a manner that makes our words count! I find your comments about how we underestimate our worth, and how we resort to communication strategies that are often diminishing, very interesting. We Western women like to believe that we have acquired some measure of equality, but I think there are many subtle differences when it comes to how we communicate, which often put us in an inferior position. Men are often so convinced that they are right (even when they are not!) that they express their ideas with great conviction and self-assurance, while even very capable and intelligent women often hesitate to "take the floor", and tend to present their ideas with a lot of "hedges" ("it could be that this is the case", rather than "this is how it is"). This happens even in the academic world, whose members are supposed to be above such things. For example, at academic seminars it is noticeable how women tend to talk less and with less self-assurance (especially if they are young), even if their ideas and thoughts are intelligent and innovative.... while guys can drone on and on, even though they often don't have that many essential/original things to say! In fact, I even think there are studies of seminars and meetings of different kinds which show how men tend to talk longer and more often, and thus dominate the discussions, even if the male-female ratio is 50/50.

It is also interesting to note that when a woman takes the floor and dominates the discussion, she is often labelled "domineering" or even self-centered...while if a man had done exactly the same thing, few people would have reacted! So, even if women now can study and reach high positions, even in hitherto male-dominated fields, I think that male-female interaction is still ruled by many subtle codes and prejudices, and you gave a great description of some of those. Of course, there are codes of behavior that pertain to race/class as well, such as how servants were supposed to behave towards their masters, or blacks towards whites (at least in the past). However, I think the "position of weakness" that you talk about in relation to Felicity and Oliver is very typical of male-female relations, and how we women voluntarily put ourselves in a role that we don't HAVE to adopt, especially if we are as intelligent and capable as Felicity is supposed to be.

Now, I think that one of the reasons why I can't root for Oliver and Felicity is that I cannot see their relationship as a mature love affair/companionship between two adults. Some of this feeling might be due to the real world discrepancy in ages between EBR (24) and SA (34), but it also has to do with how Felicity has been represented on screen. She is the young, socially awkward Wünderkind, who is exceptionally intelligent, but who has little experience with men, and who regards herself as unattractive (or at least undesirable) by men....at least until season three, when two dashing superheroes fell deeply in love with her! In season one this impression of Felicity as Oliver's "Manic Pixie Dreamgirl" was reinforced by her obvious admiration for his muscular, scarred body, and her sexual innuendos, which Oliver stoically/benevolently overlooked.

To ME their season one and two relationship didn't seem like a mature relationship between two equals, who share some difficult experiences, and thus are able to understand each other (i.e. something akin to the Sara/Oliver relationship). They were rather posed as opposites: Felicity was the sweet/quirky/precocious/socially awkward tech girl while Oliver was the tormented/dark/sometimes brutal vigilante. He was also portrayed as a man who could engage in a one-night stand with Isabel, or become sexually involved with Sara, despite their messy history. I understand that season three was partly about changing this picture by showing how Felicity was confronted with difficulties and heartbreak, something that made her character portrayal more complex and steered her away from the "hero hacker side-kick"/Manic Pixie Dreamgirl stereotype. On the other hand, season three also gave us an Oliver who was more ready to embrace his civilian self and who dared to be happy and carefree. However, I still feel that the transition for both of them was too rushed, and that they are still too far apart to be really compatible as partners, at least in my eyes. In fact, I would say that the Oliver/Felicity relationship still has this fairy tale, immature aspect that makes it hard for me to become engaged in their love affair.

[JDBentz]

Laurel lost her sister. Sad yup, even tragic. I’m sure she loved Sara but Laurel wasn’t that close to her.

Closeness doesn’t matter when it comes to loss of family, Bkwurm1. Maybe you should take an empathy course. You clearly have a lack of it outside of the character of Felicity.

The time line just doesn’t allow for it. She barely was getting back into any kind of relationship with Sara before Sara had to go back to the LoA and while they clearly kept in contact and the good feelings were there between them, they just couldn’t have spent much time together.

Yep, and Oliver clearly spent a whole lot of time with his family to re-connect in Season 1. . . . Wait. . . . on-screen he mostly spent his time in the ruins of his father’s factory or kicking bad guys in the teeth. And yet he was still fairly close with his family despite this. One would think maybe it happened off-screen, and that Laurel and Sara’s bonding occurred primarily off-screen as well. . . But of course, that doesn’t quite fit with your “Laurel is a (insert chosen insult)” viewpoint.

So as tragic as Sara’s loss was for Laurel, she’s not going to experience that big of a hole in her life.

Further evidence that you need a course in empathy beyond the character of Felicity. I had a fight with my best friend, who was to me what Tommy was to Oliver, and we had a fight that strained our friendship for a YEAR before he died. But it still took me a LONG FRICKIN TIME to get over it.

AND frankly, she’d had five years to practice and get used to Sara being dead.

And we come to the crème de la crème, where you have to imply that Laurel is a completely heartless individual and a sociopath by using the term “practice”. As far as Quentin and Laurel were concerned, Sara was dead up until she turned up in Starling in Season 2. There is no practice about it, Bkwurm.

This time might have been different since one, she actually liked her sister this time around and two, Laurel was already in an emotionally tenuous place with her addiction issues and dealing Tommy’s death.

Very nice disclaimer. Sadly, it doesn’t hold much water. See, even if family members are fighting, they are still going to grieve when one of them dies, especially if they grew up together.

Now, you do a fine analysis of all the characters and how they push their grief off to the side in order to get the job done while Felicity deals with her emotions right then and there. Sadly, this does not work in convincing me that she belongs as part of Oliver’s love life, nor as part of Team Arrow. If the writers and producers are going to keep up the current momentum they’ve had, then Season 4 will be even more trying for Team Arrow and they will have to continue to push their emotions aside to deal with later. If Felicity continues to be unable to do so, than she is going to be detrimental to the team.

As far as Felicity in Oliver’s love life, let me direct you to your own words on her continual pain throughout Season 3:

That’s the difference and why I say Felicity probably feels the pain more – ‘cause she is actually letting herself feel it and is processing it rather than burying it and I also think that she’s had more personal heartbreak in a constant stream over a longer period and without let up. (Not including Oliver, but he’s a freak, lol) Episode 1-Episode 23. She has a few breaks in the first half and a couple in the back but that's it. In season three she can't seem to go more than two episode without something very personally painful happening. Oliver and his constant rejecting, dangled maybes, "deaths", near deaths, attempted deaths, and worse than deaths caused a lot of her pain but Oliver being the main purveyor of pain doesn't lessen it.

I can buy that Oliver is the main purveyor, but its not like she doesn’t try and find others whom she can connect with, and I seem to recall Donna, Ray, and Cooper also having some contributions to this.

That rollercoaster of heartbreak, hope, misery and hopelessness is a ride nobody else had to go through in season three.

Yup. Nobody except maybe Oliver, and Roy, and Thea, and Nyssa (even if Nyssa’s was off-screen). Oh, Laurel and Captain Lance, too, even if you don’t actually count them. In fact, the only one who didn't really have this coaster except for Episode 12 and Episode 20 was Malcolm.

Or at least their coasters were on shorter tracks or allowed for longer pit stops and distractions along the way.

Oh, nice recovery. But again, not enough to cover your complete bias towards Felicity. My bias is towards story, and I’ve never shied away from tearing strips off Laurel, Sara, Oliver, etc. when they do something that doesn’t contribute to the story.

Also, if Oliver is such the purveyor of pain and misery for Felicity in Season 3, then her riding off with Oliver into the sunset is her living in a fantasy world. We all know Oliver’s going back to being a vigilante. And since Wendy Mericle has said they’re going to throw everything they can at these two and see if they make it through in Season 4. . . . well, I am personally doubting they will. If Oliver is in love with anything, its Felicity’s idealism and optimism, two things he sorely lacks at the moment (hello, he spent three seasons where, near the end of the season, he was willing to die in order to save his city; talk about a lack of idealism and optimism there!). Felicity. . . . sorry, can you remind me exactly what qualities Oliver has that Felicity would actually fall for? Because if its mainly the whole ‘pretty boy’ appearance and his salmon ladder climbing. . . .

Oh, and the question about what qualities of Oliver’s Felicity fell for is an open question for anyone to answer. Because in looking back on the entire three seasons, I can’t find anything beyond Oliver’s tenacity in challenging those who threaten his city, which would again make this more fairy tale type story, which Arrow is most definitely not.

[evaba]

Great post, JD! I think that ALL the main characters on "Arrow" had difficult things to deal with in season three, and that we shouldn't diminish the pain of one character in order to highlight the pain of another, with the purpose of excusing or explaining his/her behavior. In the final analysis, I think it all comes down to personal preferences...it is so tempting to give the characters we support a pass (or come up with elaborate justifications concerning their behavior), while judging other characters in a very different manner.

[Haggard01]

Dear Bkwurm1 I know JDBentz did a reply post and I'm going to do one similar.

Laurel lost her sister. Sad yup, even tragic. I’m sure she loved Sara but Laurel wasn’t that close to her.

Ok so basically what your saying is just because they weren't close Laurel can't grieve. I've lost family members who I only remember one major day I ever sent any time with on a good note and the rest I can't ever remember seeing much of him but I still grieved for him. Laurel Lance who in your mind is a "interest insult" is some kind of cold nutcase because obviously she is a threat to Felicity Smoak.

The time line just doesn’t allow for it. She barely was getting back into any kind of relationship with Sara before Sara had to go back to the LoA and while they clearly kept in contact and the good feelings were there between them, they just couldn’t have spent much time together.

Ok this perhaps would apply in the first two seasons where they actually spent more time on the bloody story and making sure that was good instead of season 3 that probably spent more time on "oh how do you feel" then any real story. In season 1 Oliver more time that we saw in the mission of writing his father's wrongs but we were still shown he cared for his family. Even in season 1 we were shown that despite what Sara did of stealing her boyfriend Laurel still cared for her "dead" sister.

So as tragic as Sara’s loss was for Laurel, she’s not going to experience that big of a hole in her life.

Have you ever lost somebody? Because any half decent human with emotions wouldn't be that cold towards the loss of some one close to them. Whether they show it in front of others in another question. Sara was Laurel's sister so there is going to be a loss there whether she was around or not. I have the gut feeling you would have not have said that if Donna Smoak died.

AND frankly, she’d had five years to practice and get used to Sara being dead.

That sounds like something the Joker or Ivo would say. You don't practice losing a person. I'm just moving on.

That’s the difference and why I say Felicity probably feels the pain more – ‘cause she is actually letting herself feel it and is processing it rather than burying it and I also think that she’s had more personal heartbreak in a constant stream over a longer period and without let up. (Not including Oliver, but he’s a freak, lol) Episode 1-Episode 23. She has a few breaks in the first half and a couple in the back but that's it. In season three she can't seem to go more than two episode without something very personally painful happening. Oliver and his constant rejecting, dangled maybes, "deaths", near deaths, attempted deaths, and worse than deaths caused a lot of her pain but Oliver being the main purveyor of pain doesn't lessen it.

Uh ok. You think Oliver didn't feel pain when his father blew his own head off right in front him, Yao Fei being murdered, Shado's death, killing Slade, losing Akio ect. To say one character feels pain more than the rest is compete bull crap to be blunt. There's no feeling more pain because your not inside that persons head. Felicity may attempt to deal with it which is highly debatable but what she's doing with her emotions is making her a weakness to everyone on the team.

Ever here of the a funny thing called life? Felicity's the one who let herself get a fantasy version of Oliver in her head that he couldn't match up to. Proved very clear on working with Malcolm. From Diggle to Laurel they deal with their pain and loss but move on because they've got a mission to complete.

Also if Oliver is such the main and misery of Felicity than how come she rode off into the merry sun set with him? Or the fact that you like that scene so much.

Judging from what the new show writer Wendy has said they maybe returning to telling an actual story with throwing Oliver and Felicity as a couple through hell and seeing if they survive. Personally if they do I'll only see it as more fan pandering because the only things I can find of why Felicity likes the idea of Oliver is because of probably his good looks and well that's about it. That's nothing to build a foundation of anything on.

Now I didn't examine Oliver with how he sees Felicity because I'm not getting into him on this post.

That rollercoaster of heartbreak, hope, misery and hopelessness is a ride nobody else had to go through in season three.

Yea sure, just besides Oliver, Laurel who you hate, Diggle, Quentin, Sara because I can't imagine being killed felt enjoyable, Ray Palmer with his wife ect.
I get you like to prop up Felicity don't discount the rest of them.

[President_Luthor]

The whole grief/loss issue would touch a nerve esp with those who have experienced it personally. I think trying to put a value or rating on how Felicity, Laurel etc. handle loss or express grief is a subjective exercise. (On this we must tread carefully, as many people have experienced grief or loss in real life.)

Everyone processes grief in different ways and handles it differently. Some people need a lot of time, others can put up the appearance of "getting over it" quickly even though they could be far worse off than someone who isn't keeping their grief under wraps.

Some fans might not like how Laurel was perceived to handle Sara's loss, but this doesn't invalidate the grief she did experience or have less meaning than another character. It's a matter of opinion if Laurel handled it "better" or "worse" than ... the average person? An average character on Arrow? Ollie? Felicity? And who gets to set the standard or yardstick by which we're measuring how someone handles grief over losing a loved one? I think all the scene parsing and head canon retconning is never going to fairly or accurately define how well someone -- Laurel, Felicity, whoever -- has handled grief or loss. Does the CW have a 'Handling Grief Well' character bible that all their characters must comply with in order to be deemed "acceptable" to viewers? Obviously not, because we're not androids who'll all express grief the same way for the same length of time.

Grief and coping with loss is an entirely personal and subjective thing and I'm pretty sure both Laurel and Felicity would have choice words for anyone on the series who told them their grief somehow doesn't measure up according to some ethereal standard (handling grief or loss) that by its nature cannot be defined objectively.

If we don't like how Laurel's mourning of Sara went, either just for her character or as part of the larger series narrative, it's a matter of opinion or taste. Where things get dicey is when we try to allege that the grief of character A isn't as "good" as or worth "less" than that experienced by character B.

Context is everything. It's fair to pass judgment on the writing if you will, but on the subject of grief/loss itself -- there won't be a correct answer because there is no right or wrong to it. Everyone deals with it differently.

I'm off the soapbox now.

LOT and DC shoutouts aside, it'll be Felicity and Ollie (separately) who I'll have the highest expectations for in S4. This is make-or-break season for these two re: characterization. And it'll likely be the LOT crew that will either make or break it for them.

[Shelby Kent]

Well, BkWurm1, I think you've done a very thorough job of addressing some of the questions I raised and sharing your perspective and there's quite a lot that is worth considering and responding to (which I hope to do, as I think there is room for me to clarify some of my earlier comments....), but on initially reading through your post, and thanks in part to your excellent recall of details about everything everyone else has gone through, I was puzzled about this comment:

That’s the difference and why I say Felicity probably feels the pain more – ‘cause she is actually letting herself feel it and is processing it rather than burying it

So I wanted to clarify. The first read through my thought was: well the assumption here must be that Felicity feels the pain more, having suffered more (a quantitative relationship: more pain = more feeling; b/c there is a quantitative relationship with amount of pain and feeling [perception; sensation] and that is how I first read this). But in looking more closely (rather than my first knee-jerk reaction), I am thinking what you are saying is that she is allowing herself to feel more, rather than trying to avoid feeling by drinking or fighting or seeking revenge or developing a relationship with a new-found father etc. Your emphasis is on the act of feeling. I can see that point of view.

In my view, what is going on with here is how people are coping with their pain, as well as the issue of how people are expressing their pain. There's probably overlap here.

Laurel has expressed pain over Sara's death in many different ways (she was crying, and she was angry etc,). One way in which she is coping with pain is trying to channel the feelings into a constructive activity/goal (seeking justice for her sister, fighting as Black Canary); some of this she is doing in a "healthy way" (training, trying to take down bad guys) and some is unhealthy (losing control and trying to kill someone etc). But in the end, I don't know that what we are seeing means that Laurel is not feeling her pain just as much as Felicity is feeling her pain. Laurel might be doing something (fighting) but we don't know that while she is doing that, she's not feeling her pain. It could be that she is both feeling her pain and coping with it. Coping with it doesn't necessarily mean that one is not feeling it; coping with it is a way to manage the emotions and responses to the emotions arising from the pain (hopefully in a way that is not detrimental). For example, someone killed my sister, I feel incredible pain, the pain makes me feel angry that my sister's life was taken, I am going to respond by [here insert activity: collect evidence, beat someone up, etc] and I still feel my pain. .....I don't know that coping lessens the act of feeling the pain; coping activities might help might diminish the feeling, but not necessarily.

I think (could be wrong here b/c I have terrible recall) that Felicity might be crying more and seeming to display more of what we call the "acceptable feminine emotions" (crying, having fights that are more about emotional issues and feelings -- this is just an overall impression on my part) than most of the other characters. Of course this is stereotypical behavior that is being forced on the character (if my supposition is true). For instance, if I had been put in the position of what Roy had done (killed a cop), I'd be crying and having tearful talks A LOT -- but Roy is not really afforded that kind of behavior, seeing as he is one of our masculine heroes etc......

Anyway, I think one might think that b/c it appears that Felicity is expressing her pain in a way that our society finds very acceptable for females to express pain, it could appear to one that she is letting herself feel more in comparison to another female character who may be expressing her pain differently. Also, you have pointed out some of the different ways the males are coping (drinking, revenge....). As we know our society has very defined expectations as to how males are allowed to express and cope with pain. So again, what we are seeing doesn't necessarily tell us that they are not feeling their pain as much as Felicity is feeling her pain, even when it appears that they are using coping techniques that appear to bury it.

And just as other characters are using coping techniques to manage their painful emotions (some techniques more productive and constructive than others; many are using combinations of coping techniques and are using a blend of constructive/destructive methods) so too is Felicity using coping techniques. Maybe her coping techniques are less personally and generally destructive for her? Maybe they are more productive? (she is working on getting justice for Sara, she is communicating her emotional distress through crying....) On the other hand, if during discussions about strategy etc (where it is important to stay calm and not let emotions solely dictate actions) -- if she is letting her emotions out in these sessions, then that's not necessarily a productive coping strategy. Nor of course is it productive for other characters to let the emotion of anger dictate decisions during debates about strategy etc.

So, again, I think that b/c we see Felicity express her emotions a certain way and cope with her pain a certain way, while the other characters are taking different routes for expression and coping, does not mean that Felicity's "way" correlates with feeling her pain more than the others are feeling theirs....So as I see it, being openly expressive of sad emotions does not equate with feeling one's pain more fully , or allowing oneself to feel more, than someone who is communicating/expressing/coping in a different way.

[JDBentz]

An Analysis of Felicity Smoak

Whether for good or ill, here it is:

October is only a couple of months away, and we’ll soon be seeing a lot more videos, interviews, etc. as we get into gear for Season 4. I’ve had enough separation, for the most part, to try and give an objective analysis. But again, remember these are based on how I view the show. That does not necessarily mean I am correct.

Let’s cover the flashback sequences first that we have for Felicity. In 3x05, we see her time at MIT and discover she had a bit of a darker edge, more cynical about how things were. She would not have been out-of-place in a hacker group like Anonymous (and I say this as a fan of said organization). Now the main thing I wonder about is their choice of her being all Goth-Chick Felicity; even in those sequences, she didn’t really come across as someone drawn even partially to that lifestyle, so I would guess this was more them trying to show her ‘jaded nature’ in a physical form, and like in other regards, failing in the execution of it.

However, we find she is still very intelligent and knows that doin something like what Cooper was attempting to do could result in arrests; she did her best to avoid that outcome by having their friend pull the plug, but it is learned later that it was far too late. She listens to Cooper when he tells her that it wouldn’t be good for her to come forward now that he’s already taken a plea deal, and it would just mean both of them in jail. The funny thing about all this is they did that over phones in the jail, and last I checked, recording conversations between inmates and their visitors has been a practice since the 90s and was definitely in place by that point. So how Felicity didn’t get snatched up from that is a plothole, but one I guess we’re meant to ignore. She decides to change her life after hearing of Cooper’s death, and from what we know Walter is the one who snatches her up before anyone else (because quite frankly if she’s as brilliant as Dr. Wells/Eobard makes her out to be in Flash 1x04, the question becomes why in the hell didn’t he recruit her for STAR Labs since he didn’t mind bringing in Caitlin Snow, known to become an enemy of the Flash).

Moving forward a few months to 3x14, she is shown to be a workaholic along the lines of Laurel and Quentin, working long hours into the night. Now, when this episode first aired I was rather harsh on this scene and have been a bit harsh. However, taking a look at it from the perspective of all three seasons, it is quite clear that working very late into the night is a habit of Ms. Smoak (1x04, 1x09, 1x14 to name a few). Combine this with her difficulties in social cues, and it is actually more likely that she feels she gets more work done without anyone else around. However, this does not explain what she was doing dropping something off in the CEO’s office and that part is, I believe, the fan-pandering moment. However, in comparison to some of the others that have occurred for other characters (including the Lance sisters), it is harmless to the plot unless you get the more rabid Olicity fans claiming Oliver fell in love with her in that scene.

Fast forward to the present day. Felicity has probably kept her head down for the most part since its obvious from her words about her supervisor that she has a low opinion of him or her. Now, one thing I need to say here is that if not for the soft spot Walter probably has for her being the one to recruit her in the first place, the way she spoke to him when coming to his office would’ve been grounds for a firing, which he himself pointed out in a later episode before he decided to actually look into what she had been telling him. So I would guess that the lack of socializing with her co-workers has probably caused her some problems with regards to handling certain situations properly. Her constant teamwork with Oliver and Diggle as the series moves forward helps her greatly in this regard, IMO, and makes the character a bit more enjoyable to watch.

Felicity grows as a character throughout Season 1 by going from being a very awkward individual who is more at home behind a computer and handling normal IT stuff to someone who works with a vigilante known for brutality against certain types of people. She goes outside of her comfort zone by doing field work in the attempt to find the Dodger, going into the underground casino, and the Merlyn job, as they call it. The Felicity we meet in 1x03 would not have been able to, in 1x23, tell Oliver that if they are staying in the Glades with Merlyn threatening to level the low-rent district, that she’s staying as well.

Now, one thing that has been brought up in this thread is that Felicity feels what happens strongly and deals with her emotions as it happens. However, in both 1x18 and 1x23, she pushes aside her emotions to give a report to Oliver. So this further complicates things, from my perspective, as to how she could go from this in Season 1, capable of pushing down her emotions and dealing with them at an appropriate time (like with Oliver and Diggle afterward, or in her apartment alone), to dealing with them ‘as it happens’ in Season 3.

We come to Season 2. The loyalty of Team Arrow is shown when Diggle and she fly out to Lian Yu to locate Oliver and convince him to return to Starling City, officially because of the downfall of Queen Consolidated and Stellmore International coming in to make a power grab. Unofficially, of course, they want to get Oliver to go back under the Hood. After the attack by the Hoods on Queen Consolidated, Felicity argues the point with Oliver about why he’s being so reluctant, and later admits to having allowed herself to recognize that, in the process of saving the city, dropping bodies might be involved. While she is aware of the long relationship between the Queen and Merlyn families, she doesn’t really understand those ties, and this is no fault of her own. Being a socially awkward individual myself, I recognize that she just doesn’t understand those kind of deep ties because she doesn’t have them with her own family (a topic we’ll get to later).

Felicity is clearly behind Oliver’s decision to honor Tommy’s memory once he gets going, even apologizing for being the reason he killed again with the Count. Now, here, I’m of two schools of thought. On the one hand, it can be read as Oliver beginning to develop feelings for Felicity but because of his loss of humanity and his living in the darkness for so long, he doesn’t understand them. But it can also be read as him feeling guilty for pulling her into his world and he therefore sees her as someone he has to protect, while he doesn’t feel that way about Diggle, who he sees as a fellow soldier.

Now, one thing I find irritating about this season regarding Felicity isn’t so much the character’s fault as the choices of the costume designers. Her outfits were fine, for the most part, when she was an IT agent who barely had any interaction with the rest of Queen Consolidated. But she is moved to be Oliver’s Executive Assistant as her own cover since he cannot go down so many floors to discuss something with her about their nightly activities. Her outfits in Season 3 when working with Ray are, honestly, a bit more suitable since they were less, like those her mother wore. More professionsl, simply put. They clearly learned from Season 2 in this regard. But when you have her wearing outfits that don’t really speak to professionalism in Season 2, it would leave a casual viewer with the thought that maybe she’s not as intelligent as she’s made out to be if she can’t realize that the outfits she wears aren’t suitable here.

Now, Felicity does show a bit more of an independent spirit here when she refuses to do certain things that are, in her opinion, beneath her (like fetching coffee). She also shows independence in several areas throughout this season and was, to me, very impressive in her character growth. Her speaking to Oliver in 2x22 about how he will stop Slade because he’s taken down Merlyn, the Count, the Clock King, and the Triad before now was, for some, a bit jarring but it fit the character as she had been put forth. Now again, this season she showed the ability to push aside her emotions when needed and not let them overwhelm her.

As a result, the Season 3 Felicity is one I have problems with. From her disparaging her mother despite having dressed very similarly the past two seasons and occasionally during season 3 to her suddenly lacking the ability to compartmentalize her emotions while working on a mission, it is a very different Felicity we see in Season 3, and not one I enjoyed watching at all. Her pain was, I agree, derived primarily from Oliver and his ‘I can’t be with someone unless I can only be Oliver Queen and not the Arrow’ attitude. But from his alliance to Merlyn, to his joining the League to dismantle it from the inside, to his betrayals for the sake of the mission, were all far more devastating and to me, it showed a character who she really should not have been getting in the car with at the end of the season to ride off into the sunset. Oliver is still very much the same man he was in the first two seasons. He still has the ARGUS mindset, and he will have to fight that if they’re going to truly go with story over fan-pandering in Season 4, as they’ve occasionally alluded to.

I feel Felicity, if she is going to go with a man who has hurt her deeply with his betrayals, is a bit of a masochist. That is the term for someone who continues to do something or be with someone who only cuases them pain. Laurel and Oliver in Season 1 were masochistic, so I’m not going to say Felicity’s the only one. But she’s had a one-sided crush on Oliver since at least the final few episodes of Season 1.

I really hope to see a return of the Felicity that was enjoyable in Season 4. Because if Season 4 Felicity is the same as Season 3 Felicity. . . . *shrugs* Sorry, but I won’t really be all that nice to the character. EBR is a fantastic actress, but she is much better in the humorous side of things instead of trying to replace Susanna Thompson as a strong female lead, which is honestly how I read her more tremulous scenes this season to be. Maybe that wasn’t what she was trying for. But that’s what it looked like to me. The problem is that Moira Queen had a great deal of substance behind her whereas Felicity’s backstory is still being unfolded for us. Maybe once we’ve seen her full backstory, seen her confront her father (who I honestly think is more likely to be involved with the villains of Season 4’s flashbacks than being Damien Darhk), we can actually see her as this strong role. But right now, it’s just not there.

[BkWurm1]

If the writers and producers are going to keep up the current momentum they’ve had, then Season 4 will be even more trying for Team Arrow and they will have to continue to push their emotions aside to deal with later. If Felicity continues to be unable to do so, than she is going to be detrimental to the team

.

I guess we differ in opinion. I think the Team needs to put emotions on hold during an operation – and I think we’ve always seen them do that - but that it they don’t start learning to deal with their emotions rather than bury them under physical pain or adrenaline or booze then they are going to burn out and not only burn out, but lose it in a big way like we have kept seeing Oliver do like with him constantly planning to die.

I can buy that Oliver is the main purveyor, but its not like she doesn’t try and find others whom she can connect with, and I seem to recall Donna, Ray, and Cooper also having some contributions to this.

Not entirely certain I understand what is implied. Are you saying that Donna, Ray and Cooper also caused her pain? Yes that’s true. Are you saying that they should be counted as a support system for Felicity? Well, she just stopped being estranged from her mom and she’s still in Vegas so that’s nice but only a start. Ray is a friend and became someone she was involved with but she was still keeping Oliver’s secrets AND the moment there was a romantic connection is the moment you definitely don’t share your romantic woes about another you can’t get over. And Cooper? She loved him in college but that was a long time ago and he tried to kill her, so no, you probably didn’t mean to call them support systems.

That rollercoaster of heartbreak, hope, misery and hopelessness is a ride nobody else had to go through in season three.

Yup. Nobody except maybe Oliver, and Roy, and Thea, and Nyssa (even if Nyssa’s was off-screen). Oh, Laurel and Captain Lance, too, even if you don’t actually count them. In fact, the only one who didn't really have this coaster except for Episode 12 and Episode 20 was Malcolm.

I opened my post with this:

Felicity is IMO the only one that was actually processing her grief and anger and hurt in the moment rather than putting it off for later so just by that, she probably was feeling it more but more than that I do think she had more dumped on her pain wise this season than anyone else.

Part of that assessment include how long they've had to carry the weight of their pain. Nyssa doesn’t make my list at all. As for the rest…

Or at least their coasters were on shorter tracks or allowed for longer pit stops and distractions along the way.

Oh, nice recovery.

This was not just some quick way to cover my butt, no, it was a part of my argument from the start and why I came to my conclusions that I think pretty valid and true for me.

The reason I used the rollercoaster metaphor for Felicity is that while Laurel had a big drop with Sara, then her track leveled out. Maybe Oliver was a little dip and her father was a curve but otherwise, not a lot of jerking around.

I’m going to paraphrase the Joker from the Dark Knight. Something awful can happen but as long as a person can get used to it or expect it, they sigh, they morn, they point fingers, but they can cope. It’s when it’s constant chaos that people lose their minds and I think that Felicity experienced more chaos.

She was up, she was down, she got whiplash from twists she could have never foreseen like with her dead boyfriend coming back to try to kill her (at least Laurel’s only wanted to date her) and her whole year was like that, just as she thought she was on a flat section of track, there was another chaotic twist thrown at her and I agree that they others had stuff thrown at them, just that they also got the smooth tracks to recover afterwards or were on them before so they saw it coming (like with Laurel knowing she would eventually have to tell her dad) or their time on the coaster was shorter so they didn’t have to tap into their reserve of strength as long.

And since Wendy Mericle has said they’re going to throw everything they can at these two and see if they make it through in Season 4. . . . well, I am personally doubting they will.

I don’t know what is in store for them but one thing I’m not worried about is Oliver deciding that he can’t be in a relationship with her and be the Arrow. The Oliver that unilaterally made that choice and feared happiness as too distracting, that guy has moved on and while Oliver is a long work in progress and Felicity is imperfect too, I see them now having a chance to actually work toward their happiness and find balance between their work and personal lives to the benefit of them both.

Felicity. . . . sorry, can you remind me exactly what qualities Oliver has that Felicity would actually fall for? Because if its mainly the whole ‘pretty boy’ appearance and his salmon ladder climbing. . .

Oh, and the question about what qualities of Oliver’s Felicity fell for is an open question for anyone to answer. Because in looking back on the entire three seasons, I can’t find anything beyond Oliver’s tenacity in challenging those who threaten his city, which would again make this more fairy tale type story, which Arrow is most definitely not.

She told Barry that she knew Oliver was a good person at heart even as he was dropping all those lies on her and that she could trust him. She believes in the mission and the good he’s accomplished. She sees what he’s sacrificed and that makes him a hero in her eyes. She reassured Oliver that while he didn’t have a lot of specific (any) skills as a CEO, he cared for the people at Queen Consolidated and that they would see his heart and put their faith in him. (Turned out Board of Directors prefer cash over heart). What he was doing and the part she played opened her up to possibilities she’d not dreamed of for herself and she felt like because of him, she’d become something more. She thinks he’s resourceful and clever and capable of finding “another way”. She values his trust and loyalty (and he is sooo lucky she already loved him before he made a mockery of those things – but dude is messed up and he thought he had good reasons) She values his devotion to his sister. He’s shown himself to be kind and caring and passionate and exciting and sweet and deep. He’s also riddled with mental scars but he has no shortage of other qualities for her to admire. She also likes watching him work out but it’s not why she trusted him or why she believed he had a good heart. Oliver genuinely cares and that makes caring for him easy.

If Oliver is in love with anything, its Felicity’s idealism and optimism, two things he sorely lacks at the moment (hello, he spent three seasons where, near the end of the season, he was willing to die in order to save his city; talk about a lack of idealism and optimism there!).

You can be sure he also loves her intelligence, her loyalty, her faith, her kindness, her humor, her clarity, her bravery, and her strength.

Oliver and Felicity share a lot of the same core beliefs. Wanting to help, not worried about a lot of the grey corners, willing to face their fears, not feeling that special or worthy, a will to get back up and keep going (even if they need help getting back up) and strength in their convictions. They value truth but understand secrets. They value love and loyalty in their life and with their friends and family but know how to work alone. They are not in it for the glory. And they tend to put the good of others above themselves. They are very different people but share a lot IMO of the same beliefs and goals.

Also, if Oliver is such the purveyor of pain and misery for Felicity in Season 3, then her riding off with Oliver into the sunset is her living in a fantasy world. We all know Oliver’s going back to being a vigilante.

The main source of the chaos was Oliver’s belief that he couldn’t be the Arrow and with Felicity. He’s no longer the Arrow. He’s no longer that old Oliver. He’s discovered something new about himself and that’s a capacity to use feelings and dreams of the future as a motivation and not a weakness. Felicity never questioned being able to have a relationship with the whole man and now that’s who she rode off into the sunset with. I think Oliver already proved he’s a new man when he took Ra’s down and so his return to the suit doesn’t strike any fear into me. He’s just returning to explore more of who he is and Felicity has always supported both sides. The difference is Oliver is learning to integrate and find balance.

Now to the 3rd rail.

Laurel lost her sister. Sad yup, even tragic. I’m sure she loved Sara but Laurel wasn’t that close to her.


Closeness doesn’t matter when it comes to loss of family, Bkwurm1. Maybe you should take an empathy course. You clearly have a lack of it outside of the character of Felicity.

Well, I can’t help but base in part how Laurel would feel on how she’s reacted in the past. As long as Sara was dead, she was willing to think fondly of her but when she’s presented with her alive, she treats her like she wished she was still dead.

She and Sara were working on their relationship but we know Sara had to go away, so their relationship hasn’t as far as I could see changed that much and the lack of a clear close bond and the knowledge that Laurel could go five years thinking Sara’s dead to then on finding out she was alive her gut reaction was to want nothing to do with her sister, then yeah, that takes a bite out of any empathy I’d feel for Laurel.

I'm still not saying that she wouldn't grieve or feel sorrow but it still remains one event that she is coping with without a bunch of new trauma of equal weight constantly clobbering her over the head.

AND my own personal experience or bias if you want to call it such, has taught me that getting used to the idea of someone’s death DOES make a big difference in accepting it when it happens so those five years where Laurel believed Sara was dead, yeah, from my experience they absolutely would have helped prepare her.

Have you ever lost somebody? Because any half decent human with emotions wouldn't be that cold towards the loss of some one close to them. Whether they show it in front of others in another question. Sara was Laurel's sister so there is going to be a loss there whether she was around or not. I have the gut feeling you would have not have said that if Donna Smoak died.

As it happens, my personal bias comes from dealing with the death of a parent. I got to be there from 17 year old to mid thirties in the same household, staying to help care for my parents as they aged. I got to be there for the amputation and the quadruple bi-pass and the time his heart just stopped and he fell down flat on his back in the middle of the road while trying to help some kids that had crashed their car. He had the good sense to do it just as the paramedics pulled in so good on you dad, I got to keep him around for a bunch more years and during that time, I got to be there for the hundreds of nights I crept close to his bedroom door to make sure he was still breathing. All the scares and all the worries, the long patches of normal in between, I got to be there for all of it and then the two weeks he was in the hospital - checking in mentally clear but rapidly reverting to slipping in and out of consciousness until he breathed his final breath.

So yes, I have lost someone in my life, someone that in the end even shared my apartment. So yes, I also am speaking from bias when it comes to talking about the smaller hole left in your life when it's not someone in your day to day life.


Don't mistake me, I grieved and I cried and sorrowed but I had been, it turned out, mentally preparing myself for a long time.

Yep, and Oliver clearly spent a whole lot of time with his family to re-connect in Season 1. . . . Wait. . . . on-screen he mostly spent his time in the ruins of his father’s factory or kicking bad guys in the teeth. And yet he was still fairly close with his family despite this. One would think maybe it happened off-screen, and that Laurel and Sara’s bonding occurred primarily off-screen as well. . . But of course, that doesn’t quite fit with your “Laurel is a (insert chosen insult)” viewpoint.

Oliver was living in the same house in season one with his mother and sister. Sara moved back to Nanda Parbat and didn’t get to control her schedule. Did Nanda Parbat even have phones? A telegraph? A post office? I’m not being unreasonable to assume that there have not been any further girls night out or Daddy/Daughter bonding.

So as tragic as Sara’s loss was for Laurel, she’s not going to experience that big of a hole in her life.

Further evidence that you need a course in empathy beyond the character of Felicity. I had a fight with my best friend, who was to me what Tommy was to Oliver, and we had a fight that strained our friendship for a YEAR before he died. But it still took me a LONG FRICKIN TIME to get over it.

I’m not dismissing a feeling, just that when someone already isn’t a part of your daily routine, there are less triggers. Sara physically wasn’t occupying a set space in Laurel’s life. She was an occasional added layer and someone that Laurel could think about and heard from occasionally, but I stand by the difference of losing someone that’s a memory everywhere you go and weaved into everything you did.

AND frankly, she’d had five years to practice and get used to Sara being dead.

And we come to the crème de la crème, where you have to imply that Laurel is a completely heartless individual and a sociopath by using the term “practice”. As far as Quentin and Laurel were concerned, Sara was dead up until she turned up in Starling in Season 2. There is no practice about it, Bkwurm.

No, you implied Laurel was those things. I said she’d had practice being used to Sara being dead and what is learning to live for five years without Sara being “alive” but five years of memories of how to cope? Any negative connotation was not intended by me.

This time might have been different since one, she actually liked her sister this time around and two, Laurel was already in an emotionally tenuous place with her addiction issues and dealing Tommy’s death.

Very nice disclaimer. Sadly, it doesn’t hold much water. See, even if family members are fighting, they are still going to grieve when one of them dies, especially if they grew up together.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that I’m implying that Sara’s death doesn’t matter to Laurel or maker her sad. I did state I didn't think they were especially close but my post was about why I see the pain that the other characters went through as either not as painful or at least not as concentrated or going on as long. I knew going in I probably would upset someone but again, it was explicitly stated from that get go that these were my viewpoints and I answered a request to do so.

[BkWurm1]

Ok so basically what your saying is just because they weren't close Laurel can't grieve. I've lost family members who I only remember one major day I ever sent any time with on a good note and the rest I can't ever remember seeing much of him but I still grieved for him.

Nope, not saying that. Context really is everything. Please review my original post.

Laurel Lance who in your mind is a "interest insult" is some kind of cold nutcase because obviously she is a threat to Felicity Smoak.

I don’t even know what an “interest insult” is. I can’t stop you from assuming everything is some kind of a ship war but it doesn’t make it true.

AND frankly, she’d had five years to practice and get used to Sara being dead.

That sounds like something the Joker or Ivo would say. You don't practice losing a person. I'm just moving on.

Then you’ve never had to do it before. Hey, count yourself fortunate. I honestly didn’t mean it to be anything other than a fact, not a negative commentary or witty comeback from a Supervillain. I may have missed my calling.

Uh ok. You think Oliver didn't feel pain when his father blew his own head off right in front him, Yao Fei being murdered, Shado's death, killing Slade, losing Akio ect.

Again there is that pesky context thing, like where I specifically said only addressing season three.

Ever here of the a funny thing called life? Felicity's the one who let herself get a fantasy version of Oliver in her head that he couldn't match up to. Proved very clear on working with Malcolm. From Diggle to Laurel they deal with their pain and loss but move on because they've got a mission to complete.

And Felicity was there to let them know where to go and what to do on their missions. She dealt with her pain and got the missions done too. She just occasionally had a quiver in her voice.

Oliver coming back from the dead changed and now willing to work with Malcolm even though it did effectively betray Sara and Thea, well that’s not proof that Felicity was wrong with how he would have felt before he "died" and Ra’s got in his head. AND apparently it’s a fantasy that Roy, Laurel, and Diggle shared. Roy wanted to work with Malcolm but he never claimed Oliver would have, just that he wasn't there to be the one making the decision. Diggle and Laurel agreed not working with him was the right thing to do.

Felicity didn’t like Oliver’s choice and that was her free will to do so. He went on to do waay worse IMO later on and she knew about it and was able to forgive him. I don’t see her living in any kind of fantasy world, unless the argument is that she shouldn’t have been able to forgive him. Hey, Diggle didn’t.

Sara because I can't imagine being killed felt enjoyable

Seriously? Lol.

[BkWurm1]

The whole grief/loss issue would touch a nerve esp with those who have experienced it personally. I think trying to put a value or rating on how Felicity, Laurel etc. handle loss or express grief is a subjective exercise. (On this we must tread carefully, as many people have experienced grief or loss in real life.)

True, but I was asked what my reasoning and viewpoint was. This was mine. Never claimed everyone would agree with me.

I also never flung personal insults at anyone as I explored my viewpoint on fictional characters. This is not aimed at the post to which I am currently replying but seriously people, can we cut it out? You have an unfair advantage over me ‘cause I won’t allow myself to do that.

Grief and coping with loss is an entirely personal and subjective thing and I'm pretty sure both Laurel and Felicity would have choice words for anyone on the series who told them their grief somehow doesn't measure up according to some ethereal standard (handling grief or loss) that by its nature cannot be defined objectively.

So if the take away is we should not judge others for how they grieve and cope with pain, why is Felicity the only one judged this season for crying all the time? If it is a problem that she was near tears too much, then that sounds like pretty specific judgment that she didn’t have justification to her pain or feelings.

If we don't like how Laurel's mourning of Sara went, either just for her character or as part of the larger series narrative, it's a matter of opinion or taste. Where things get dicey is when we try to allege that the grief of character A isn't as "good" as or worth "less" than that experienced by character B.

I don’t like that the show didn’t build up the Lance sister’s relationship before they killed Sara. That was a big issue for me because I NEEDED that to feel Laurel’s loss at the levels the show probably wanted me to feel it but my post wasn’t so much about judging the existence of pain or the final depth of loss, but to show why because of how a character was handling it or how much time they had to handle it, that Felicity was getting clobbered by loss and stress more than the other characters in the show.

Maybe somethings can’t be quantified but events can be counted up.

[BkWurm1]

So, again, I think that b/c we see Felicity express her emotions a certain way and cope with her pain a certain way, while the other characters are taking different routes for expression and coping, does not mean that Felicity's "way" correlates with feeling her pain more than the others are feeling theirs....So as I see it, being openly expressive of sad emotions does not equate with feeling one's pain more fully , or allowing oneself to feel more, than someone who is communicating/expressing/coping in a different way.

We have been told and shown how the characters deal with grief. I accept as fact that Felicity lets herself feel the emotion because what we’ve seen of her character is that she wears her heart on her sleeve. She’s happy, you know it. She’s mad, you know it. Hurt, scared, worried, you know it. It's her MO and show history supports it.

I’m not really trying to judge the other’s methods for coping but I do really think we’ve been told that the rest do involve avoidance or delay to the pain. ( I also do think that Felicity also uses duty/work to keep herself focused but since she's getting judged for feeling her emotions while doing her duty, it seemed to be a moot point)

Oliver flat out states he just won’t feel it and thinks it's a weakness (that's another type of feeling but we are talking patterns so I think it fits) that makes a hell of a lot sense given all the pain he’d be buried under. It eventually comes out in other ways so if he won’t allow himself to grieve over Sara, maybe he’s going to start freaking out about really needing to see his sister. Total on the spot pop phycology but maybe his over protective stance toward Thea (to the point of taking away her agency) was because he was suffering from not dealing with what Sara’s death did to him in a straight forward manner.

Lance is “hiding” in the bottle. Laurel only feels the fire inside her quenched when she’s fighting and wearing Sara’s jacket. The case has been made that Laurel can utilize her coping tools and still be feeling the full range of Sara’s death but that is not been how Laurel has dealt with emotions before.

She has a history of putting them off and having to deal with them later. Like instead of facing the guilt she felt over Tommy’s death, displacing it as hatred toward the Hood. Then she turned to pills and alcohol to medicate her feelings instead. I actually am not judging, just pointing to show history. Sara had been dead for five years but Laurel said she had never been able to deal with her anger because she was grieving. Now in season three we saw Laurel be angry and Laurel saying feeling the anger and channeling it into clubbing that abuser made it feel like Sara is still alive.

It seemed reasonable to me to say that Laurel has found a way to put off feeling her pain like she has in the past.

In the end, real people are too complicated to peg in a hole, but Felicity and Laurel aren’t real and their emotional existence in its entirety is there on our screen to analyze and dissect. The unquantifiable stuff is still more our experiences and viewpoints and how we relate to what is shown.

[BkWurm1]

The funny thing about all this is they did that over phones in the jail, and last I checked, recording conversations between inmates and their visitors has been a practice since the 90s and was definitely in place by that point.

They fail on being realistic with this on The FLash all the time too. Barry is always talking about his secret with his father. Oh, and Roy and Thea were way to easy and free with there conversation too. It's a bad TV cliché.

[BkWurm1]

But she is moved to be Oliver’s Executive Assistant as her own cover since he cannot go down so many floors to discuss something with her about their nightly activities. Her outfits in Season 3 when working with Ray are, honestly, a bit more suitable since they were less, like those her mother wore. More professionsl, simply put. They clearly learned from Season 2 in this regard. But when you have her wearing outfits that don’t really speak to professionalism in Season 2, it would leave a casual viewer with the thought that maybe she’s not as intelligent as she’s made out to be if she can’t realize that the outfits she wears aren’t suitable here.

My headcanon is as much as she'd like to deny it, her mother's style of dress (and growing up in Vegas) influenced what she thought of as normal.