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  1. #16
    Settling In Gintoki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Explains why Arrow's season 3 took the unnatural turn it did. Differing tastes and opinions with differing followers. I have no problem with kiddy shows attempting to look all mature and acting like they know absolutely nothing about life, I just prefer a much more mature form of storytelling than Flash or Arrow have to offer.
    Good for you. Lol kiddy shows....these daredevils fan. Just so you know, I didn't like season 3 arrow as much as compared to first 2 seasons, because everyone knows it was a weak season.
    Sure, go ahead enjoying your boring dark and gritty show. While i will enjoy better stuff like Arrow and Flash.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gintoki View Post
    Good for you. Lol kiddy shows....these daredevils fan. Just so you know, I didn't like season 3 arrow as much as compared to first 2 seasons, because everyone knows it was a weak season.
    Sure, go ahead enjoying your boring dark and gritty show. While i will enjoy better stuff like Arrow and Flash.
    I don't think it's just the "dark and gritty", since "Daredevil" actually had quite a lot of humorous/lighthearted/warm moments as well, especially in the portrayal of the friendship between Matt, Foggy and Karen. In fact, I even thought some of the scenes with Wesley and Madam Gao were pretty funny...although she was a quite scary lady, she had a dry sense of humor, and I loved how she kept in talking in Mandarin, just to show her superiority. Leland was also a funny figure, with his quips and his impatience.

    Furthermore, I have to agree with the abrupt and disconcerting change of tone between seasons one and season three "Arrow". It started out as a story about a psychologically damaged anti-hero who had no qualms about breaking people's necks or killing them with arrows, and by the end of season three it had turned into this cloying tumblr fan fiction/romcon with a happy Ollie (who has apparently totally forgotten about all the men he killed and their families) riding off into the sunset with his sweet and quirky tech girl. I can understand that the writers wanted to give the show a lighter tone and satisfy the Olicity shippers (or themselves, since they seem to love the pairing), but it also means sweeping the whole question about vigilante justice and redemption under the rug, as if Oliver never had done the things he did in season one.

    "Daredevil" confronts the issues of vigilante justice and how far you can go in a much more mature and serious manner IMHO. Matt as "Daredevil" is as cruel as Oliver when he confronts the bad guys, but he does struggle with the dark elements in his personality, which is evident in his talks with the Hell's Kitchen priest, and he clearly draws a line at killing. The writers also let Claire function as the viewers' mouthpiece when she talked about her fears that Matt would let his dark persona take over. There were some hints of this in the early season one "Arrow" episodes as well, when Laurel said that Oliver is a murderer without remorse, or later on when Tommy confronted Oliver about his killings. However, in seasons two and three it's like we're supposed to forget what Oliver once was, and accept him as this perfect boyfriend to Felicity Smoak, and this lack of character consistency is rather jarring and disappointing IMHO. Why did the producers/writers make Oliver a vengeful serial killer (no matter if those he killed were bad guys!) in the first place if they were not going to make his struggle with his season one modus operandi/killer instinct a focal point in his development towards becoming a hero? It's just like the dropped an opportunity to make his character portrayal deeper and more interesting in favor of a tacked on romance, or external plot fireworks like having him impersonate the new Ra's al Ghul.

    Finally, I personally think that "Daredevil" is a better written and acted series than "Arrow" ever was, even though I've never had any major problems with "Arrow". This excellence extends to the actors who portrayed the secondary characters as well, who never felt stereotypical, which is IMHO sometimes a problem with "Arrow's" secondary characters (super-corrupt businessmen in S1, under-utilized DC villains in other seasons).

    In sum: I still think "Arrow" is a good comic book adaptation, otherwise I wouldn't participate on this forum. However, watching "Daredevil" made me see some of "Arrow's" weaknesses, especially in season three.
    Last edited by evaba; 07-18-2015 at 08:31 AM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I don't think it's just the "dark and gritty", since "Daredevil" actually had quite a lot of humorous/lighthearted/warm moments as well, especially in the portrayal of the friendship between Matt, Foggy and Karen. In fact, I even thought some of the scenes with Wesley and Madam Gao were pretty funny...although she was a quite scary lady, she had a dry sense of humor, and I loved how she kept in talking in Mandarin, just to show her superiority. Leland was also a funny figure, with his quips and his impatience.

    Furthermore, I have to agree with the abrupt and disconcerting change of tone between seasons one and season three "Arrow". It started out as a story about a psychologically damaged anti-hero who had no qualms about breaking people's necks or killing them with arrows, and by the end of season three it had turned into this cloying tumblr fan fiction/romcon with a happy Ollie (who has apparently totally forgotten about all the men he killed and their families) riding off into the sunset with his sweet and quirky tech girl. I can understand that the writers wanted to give the show a lighter tone and satisfy the Olicity shippers (or themselves, since they seem to love the pairing), but it also means sweeping the whole question about vigilante justice and redemption under the rug, as if Oliver never had done the things he did in season one.

    "Daredevil" confronts the issues of vigilante justice and how far you can go in a much more mature and serious manner IMHO. Matt as "Daredevil" is as cruel as Oliver when he confronts the bad guys, but he does struggle with the dark elements in his personality, which is evident in his talks with the Hell's Kitchen priest, and he clearly draws a line at killing. The writers also let Claire function as the viewers' mouthpiece when she talked about her fears that Matt would let his dark persona take over. There were some hints of this in the early season one "Arrow" episodes as well, when Laurel said that Oliver is a murderer without remorse, or later on when Tommy confronted Oliver about his killings. However, in seasons two and three it's like we're supposed to forget what Oliver once was, and accept him as this perfect boyfriend to Felicity Smoak, and this lack of character consistency is rather jarring and disappointing IMHO.

    Finally, I personally think that "Daredevil" is a better written and acted series than "Arrow" ever was, even though I've never had any major problems with "Arrow". This excellence extends to the actors who portrayed the secondary characters as well, who never felt stereotypical, which is IMHO sometimes a problem with "Arrow's" secondary characters (super-corrupt businessmen in S1, under-utilized DC villains in other seasons).

    In sum: I still think "Arrow" is a good comic book adaptation, otherwise I wouldn't participate on this forum. However, watching "Daredevil" made me see some of "Arrow's" weaknesses, especially in season three.
    Agree for sure on the abrupt tone change from a show like Daredevil to the comedy soap opera at the end of season 3 which is proved even more so with them brining in an actor who is a comedy actor and more Olicty sex scenes.

    The great thing that used to be when it was Arrow instead of the "Felicity superhero show" was when they did briefly did get into his methods about how he operates. You are very correct about how they are just swept Oliver's ruthless methods under the rug and expect us to forget them now that he's a "hero" due to apparently not killing. Why I put quotation marks around hero is because you mean to tell me as a viewer that Oliver in season 1 because he sent a few thugs to the morgue was a not a good guy, was not a hero? Bullcrap. He was hero from the very first episode when he went after Adam Hunt then every other guy that followed plus just to name a few The Count, The Savior, The Royal Flush gang, The Dogger, Garfield Lynns, Malcolm Merlyn himself, Fyers and stopping that plane from being blown up? Oliver Queen is a hero despite his flaws.

    Anyhow moving on in season 2 that's when the tone began to change to a degree of it began going lighter and I think that's when we began to loose some up what made Arrow so good.

    I've never seen Daredevil yet (long story on why not) but it sounds like a great show.

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    @Haggard01, I also think that Oliver was a (kind of) hero from the beginning, albeit a flawed one. He had the best intentions, and he did help people and his city. However, the taking of people's lives should not be something that can be atoned for just by ceasing to kill. That's not how it works in real life, and even if we're talking about fiction (where viewers are much more forgiving towards killer heroes than they would have been if they were for real) these moral issues should IMHO not be swept under the rug and totally forgotten.

    I personally think that Oliver's character portrayal would have had more depth if there had been a follow up to his season one killings/mindset. The writers amnesia when it comes to their own writing becomes rather ludicrous when we see Oliver being morally indignant/condemnatory towards Ted Grant for accidentally killing ONE man six years ago (and it turned out it wasn't even him, but his protege!). He even expected Laurel to condemn Grant, although he knows that she knows about his own killings. In fact, it seems as though Ollie's friends and relatives have forgotten about his body count as well, and now view him exclusively as a hero.
    Last edited by evaba; 07-18-2015 at 08:43 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gintoki View Post
    Good for you. Lol kiddy shows....these daredevils fan. Just so you know, I didn't like season 3 arrow as much as compared to first 2 seasons, because everyone knows it was a weak season.
    Sure, go ahead enjoying your boring dark and gritty show. While i will enjoy better stuff like Arrow and Flash.
    The only kiddie show here is Arrow. Daredevil and The Flash are far and away better quality and better style than the Broken Arrow.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Agree for sure on the abrupt tone change from a show like Daredevil to the comedy soap opera at the end of season 3 which is proved even more so with them brining in an actor who is a comedy actor and more Olicty sex scenes.

    The great thing that used to be when it was Arrow instead of the "Felicity superhero show" was when they did briefly did get into his methods about how he operates. You are very correct about how they are just swept Oliver's ruthless methods under the rug and expect us to forget them now that he's a "hero" due to apparently not killing. Why I put quotation marks around hero is because you mean to tell me as a viewer that Oliver in season 1 because he sent a few thugs to the morgue was a not a good guy, was not a hero? Bullcrap. He was hero from the very first episode when he went after Adam Hunt then every other guy that followed plus just to name a few The Count, The Savior, The Royal Flush gang, The Dogger, Garfield Lynns, Malcolm Merlyn himself, Fyers and stopping that plane from being blown up? Oliver Queen is a hero despite his flaws.

    Anyhow moving on in season 2 that's when the tone began to change to a degree of it began going lighter and I think that's when we began to loose some up what made Arrow so good.

    I've never seen Daredevil yet (long story on why not) but it sounds like a great show.
    I disagree. Oliver was a hero by stopping that plane from being destroyed. But he wasn't those things in several of those other instances. He was a vigilante.

  7. #22
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I don't think it's just the "dark and gritty", since "Daredevil" actually had quite a lot of humorous/lighthearted/warm moments as well, especially in the portrayal of the friendship between Matt, Foggy and Karen. In fact, I even thought some of the scenes with Wesley and Madam Gao were pretty funny...although she was a quite scary lady, she had a dry sense of humor, and I loved how she kept in talking in Mandarin, just to show her superiority. Leland was also a funny figure, with his quips and his impatience.

    Furthermore, I have to agree with the abrupt and disconcerting change of tone between seasons one and season three "Arrow". It started out as a story about a psychologically damaged anti-hero who had no qualms about breaking people's necks or killing them with arrows, and by the end of season three it had turned into this cloying tumblr fan fiction/romcon with a happy Ollie (who has apparently totally forgotten about all the men he killed and their families) riding off into the sunset with his sweet and quirky tech girl. I can understand that the writers wanted to give the show a lighter tone and satisfy the Olicity shippers (or themselves, since they seem to love the pairing), but it also means sweeping the whole question about vigilante justice and redemption under the rug, as if Oliver never had done the things he did in season one.

    "Daredevil" confronts the issues of vigilante justice and how far you can go in a much more mature and serious manner IMHO. Matt as "Daredevil" is as cruel as Oliver when he confronts the bad guys, but he does struggle with the dark elements in his personality, which is evident in his talks with the Hell's Kitchen priest, and he clearly draws a line at killing. The writers also let Claire function as the viewers' mouthpiece when she talked about her fears that Matt would let his dark persona take over. There were some hints of this in the early season one "Arrow" episodes as well, when Laurel said that Oliver is a murderer without remorse, or later on when Tommy confronted Oliver about his killings. However, in seasons two and three it's like we're supposed to forget what Oliver once was, and accept him as this perfect boyfriend to Felicity Smoak, and this lack of character consistency is rather jarring and disappointing IMHO. Why did the producers/writers make Oliver a vengeful serial killer (no matter if those he killed were bad guys!) in the first place if they were not going to make his struggle with his season one modus operandi/killer instinct a focal point in his development towards becoming a hero? It's just like the dropped an opportunity to make his character portrayal deeper and more interesting in favor of a tacked on romance, or external plot fireworks like having him impersonate the new Ra's al Ghul.

    Finally, I personally think that "Daredevil" is a better written and acted series than "Arrow" ever was, even though I've never had any major problems with "Arrow". This excellence extends to the actors who portrayed the secondary characters as well, who never felt stereotypical, which is IMHO sometimes a problem with "Arrow's" secondary characters (super-corrupt businessmen in S1, under-utilized DC villains in other seasons).

    In sum: I still think "Arrow" is a good comic book adaptation, otherwise I wouldn't participate on this forum. However, watching "Daredevil" made me see some of "Arrow's" weaknesses, especially in season three.
    Thanks evaba, you hit just about all the points I should've if I hadn't been to tired to type. Daredevil isn't mature because of the "dark and gritty" and it got it's mature rating among other things because of the violence but Daredevil has always had a consistantly much more mature tone to their stories than many other comicbooks, both DC and Marvel. Anyone who hasn't been able to guess, yes I'm definately a Daredevil fan but it's not why I praise the show or comics, the praise I've just given is why I became a fan. Daredevil has it's flaws but it's not some cheesy teeny soap opera a la Reign/Twilight thinking they can be mature simply because they bring in storylines about killing and substance abuse. Arrow was the most mature and best comicbook adaption on TV when it started (flawed but still the best TV had to offer) but was overtaken even by The Flash from the very start in season 3 proving it's not the "dark and gritty" needed for a mature tone. Sadly I see Arrow in a downward spiral personally but maybe it's this direction of writing that fans of the CW want to see, it's definately not the type of writing that I want to see. After spending nearly 3 years as a very strong fan of Arrow (I've praised the show and tried convincing people to watch it the first 2 seasons) I'll most likely leave the show with a heavy heart for the loss. I'm not claiming others should abandon as well, obviously people like Gintoki prefer this type of show and that's why stories like Twilight are such a success. Yet that success doesn't make them anymore mature, it's still a teeny drama.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 07-18-2015 at 10:08 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    The only kiddie show here is Arrow. Daredevil and The Flash are far and away better quality and better style than the Broken Arrow.
    That's good to know, that's like your opinion, so i won't get butthurt or anything. Though i seem to have noticed you're not really a fan of the series, and most your message comprise of hate, why do you even visit this arrow forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Sadly I see Arrow in a downward spiral personally but maybe it's this direction of writing that fans of the CW want to see, it's definately not the type of writing that I want to see. After spending nearly 3 years as a very strong fan of Arrow (I've praised the show and tried convincing people to watch it the first 2 seasons) I'll most likely leave the show with a heavy heart for the loss. I'm not claiming others should abandon as well, obviously people like Gintoki prefer this type of show and that's why stories like Twilight are such a success. Yet that success doesn't make them anymore mature, it's still a teeny drama.
    Now the daredevil fanboy is gonna act like smart guy. Maybe, just maybe if you read my post carefully, you would see i wrote season 3 was weak compared to the first 2 seasons, and nowhere on their level of epicness. But due to being a fanboy, you just ignored that fact, and trying acting smart and in the end looked like a fool, but in reality you're just butthurt at the fact i find daredevil bad. Mind you, that's my opinion.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gintoki View Post
    That's good to know, that's like your opinion, so i won't get butthurt or anything. Though i seem to have noticed you're not really a fan of the series, and most your message comprise of hate, why do you even visit this arrow forum?


    Now the daredevil fanboy is gonna act like smart guy. Maybe, just maybe if you read my post carefully, you would see i wrote season 3 was weak compared to the first 2 seasons, and nowhere on their level of epicness. But due to being a fanboy, you just ignored that fact, and trying acting smart and in the end looked like a fool, but in reality you're just butthurt at the fact i find daredevil bad. Mind you, that's my opinion.
    Actually I couldn't care less if you enjoy Daredevil or not. No I didn't ignore you mentioning season 3 was "weak", season 3 simply brought to light what has been under the facade of the show since the beginning. We'll most likely see the same thing with the Flash in 1-2 seasons from now which would be a shame IMO.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    Actually I couldn't care less if you enjoy Daredevil or not. No I didn't ignore you mentioning season 3 was "weak", season 3 simply brought to light what has been under the facade of the show since the beginning. We'll most likely see the same thing with the Flash in 1-2 seasons from now which would be a shame IMO.
    Too early to judge yet. Let's see how it goes. Let's hope the producers realize the faults in previous season.

  11. #26
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gintoki View Post
    Too early to judge yet. Let's see how it goes. Let's hope the producers realize the faults in previous season.
    Not really to early to judge but I do agree that hopefully the producers will realize the faults they made with Arrow.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gintoki View Post
    That's good to know, that's like your opinion, so i won't get butthurt or anything. Though i seem to have noticed you're not really a fan of the series, and most your message comprise of hate, why do you even visit this arrow forum?
    Because I was a fan and I don't really tend to just drop stuff just because it's gotten bad. Which it has.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gintoki View Post
    Now the daredevil fanboy is gonna act like smart guy. Maybe, just maybe if you read my post carefully, you would see i wrote season 3 was weak compared to the first 2 seasons, and nowhere on their level of epicness. But due to being a fanboy, you just ignored that fact, and trying acting smart and in the end looked like a fool, but in reality you're just butthurt at the fact i find daredevil bad. Mind you, that's my opinion.
    Daredevil isn't bad. You just don't like it, which you're allowed to. Arrow is bad now. That's not an opinion. You saying it's weak isn't important to this issue, as that person didn't say that you didn't say that. You're hurt because someone is being less antagonistic than you at the moment. You also come off to me as more of fanboy for getting so agitated at this person's attitude than they are. I'm very sorry that you feel way regardless though.

  14. #29
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    Daredevil isn't bad. You just don't like it, which you're allowed to. Arrow is bad now. That's not an opinion. You saying it's weak isn't important to this issue, as that person didn't say that you didn't say that. You're hurt because someone is being less antagonistic than you at the moment. You also come off to me as more of fanboy for getting so agitated at this person's attitude than they are. I'm very sorry that you feel way regardless though.
    The reason I'm not as antagonistic or as agitated as Gintoki is my life doesn't revolve around some fictional stories (it's just not THAT important to me) and his/her posting only further reenforces my argument of the teeny drama Arrow is. Gintoki's dislike of Daredevil is his/her opinion yet my praise for Daredevil makes me a fanboy and I'm the one "butthurt" that Gintoki doesn't like it? Gintoki's praise is the "epicness" of Arrow? That almost sounds like me when I was in grade school. It's quite a large portion of the vocal fandom of both Arrow and Flash trying to brow beat those that don't share the belief of the "epicness" of the shows in the same manner as schoolyard bullies that think they're cool because other kids listen to them. Not that it doesn't exist but this type of fandom is less prevelant among truly mature shows while they run rampant among teeny shows.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 07-18-2015 at 01:57 PM.

  15. #30
    Settling In Gintoki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    Daredevil isn't bad. You just don't like it, which you're allowed to. Arrow is bad now. That's not an opinion. You saying it's weak isn't important to this issue, as that person didn't say that you didn't say that. You're hurt because someone is being less antagonistic than you at the moment. You also come off to me as more of fanboy for getting so agitated at this person's attitude than they are. I'm very sorry that you feel way regardless though.
    You're making it sound like your opinion is a fact. I won't call the show bad, just because of one weak season.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDevil View Post
    The reason I'm not as antagonistic or as agitated as Gintoki is my life doesn't revolve around some fictional stories (it's just not THAT important to me) and his/her posting only further reenforces my argument of the teeny drama Arrow is. Gintoki's dislike of Daredevil is his/her opinion yet my praise for Daredevil makes me a fanboy and I'm the one "butthurt" that Gintoki doesn't like it? Gintoki's praise is the "epicness" of Arrow? That almost sounds like me when I was in grade school. It's quite a large portion of the vocal fandom of both Arrow and Flash trying to brow beat those that don't share the belief of the "epicness" of the shows in the same manner as schoolyard bullies that think they're cool because other kids listen to them. Not that it doesn't exist but this type of fandom is less prevelant among truly mature shows while they run rampant among teeny shows.
    Then i wonder why you're discussing 'fictional stories' on a forum, if your life doesn't revolve around it, and continue to say hilarious stuff.
    Yeah, you do certainly seem butthurt. You're fine to praise daredevil, nothing wrong with it, but you're giving off a butthurt vibe from your message.
    Oh, so now you have a problem, that i find Arrow 'epic'.
    Oh God....You're making it sound like I'm forcing people to like Arrow/Flash. Really it's an opinion preference. You find Arrow to be some 'teeny drama', fine, that's your opinion, but i don't agree with it. Damn, you need to grow up, and stop getting butthurt and not everyone likes dark gritty shows like daredevil.

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