Barry has got it ALL wrong, soooooo, humour me.

[speople]

Because a tragic origin/background is essential for a hero. Also, Flashpoint.

I'm thinking Rip as well, which is why unlike Waverider or Flash for example who can do it under their own power, Wells needed a super-powered suit to travel through time and stop Barry. Just time travelling via his time machine WOULD have got him there (the correct moment(s), however without personal super speed as well, the occupant of the time machine might not have been able to prevent Barry from saving his mom.

[shadow4486]

@ Shadow 4486. Quoting one of my all time favourite quotes from the Dungeons and Dragons tv series (the one where Eric is given the powers of Dungeon Master for a day).

"Once touched by power, one is never again quite the same".

The explosion had the opposite effect on anything that was already super-powered, rather than giving powers it took them away (to create a balance). However, as the quote says, last vestiges remained in both Wells and the suit. Similar to how Eric still had some slight powers of the Dungeon Master even after Dungeon Master had removed them.

The RF suit and Wells don't have the power to time travel though, which is why the suit needed recharging with the tachyon device. So that the suit, and Wells, are ready for when Barry eventually goes back to try and save his mom.

Damn, if I keep batting like this I should apply for a job on the show

So what you're saying is that Wells had power but the explosion took away his power? And those "last vestiges" would be the healing?

So in your "Three Timeline" theory (which I like very much, BTW), how does Wells (speedster) lose his power? And is he using the tachyon device to "charge up" the suit so he can get it back.

Also, what is your theory on where the RF suit in the future room came from? Was it in the ring? Or was it in another dimension? Or was it in the "speed force"? (Just saying that last part made me throw up in my mouth a little) Did he have the suit all along?

Also, Who was the RF who threatened Joe in his house? Do you think that was Wells? If so, then he's got speed.

Ok, I'm gonna stop because I'm confusing myself.

Thanks, S

[Backward Galaxy]

It's possible that in timeline 2, with his mother still alive, Barry just wouldn't have the impetus to develop the necessary grit, determination, and desire, to battle against AND overcome, personal loss and adversity. So that when the crucial moment of the timeline eventually comes, he won't be able to break free from Psycho Pirate's control and destroy the cannon.(And that (his mother's murder) is a MAJOR personal loss esp in the manner of it, that Barry has to overcome).

While I feel like that is something a showrunner might think makes for an excellent story, I find it very hard to believe there's a reality where Barry becomes Flash and fights bad guys but DOESN'T face the kind of adversity you're talking about. It's easier for me to believe he wouldn't become Flash at all in that scenario.

But then, I also have a problem with that. A great deal has been made of Nora's death changing Barry forever, but it's still the accident that happens over a decade later that turns him into the Flash. A timeline where Nora is alive AND he becomes Flash only reinforces this. I've never looked at Nora's death as the reason Barry becomes a hero, not in the same way the death of the Waynes propels a young Bruce Wayne into taking on the mantle of the Bat. But if I'm wrong, then he wouldn't be Flash at all in timeline 2.

Something I haven't talked about previously is also the idea that Barry would go back in time for such a selfish reason in the first place. Generally speaking, it's not the heroic thing to do. Superman did it in his first major movie, but he did it in the moment immediately following that tragedy. It wasn't something he did years after the fact just because he wanted a better life for himself and his family, with no consideration for the consequences such a major change to the timeline might have.

In this instance, the only way I see Barry traveling backwards in time is if he comes to the realization that someone else did it first, to mess with him. I can see him traveling back in time to stop RF from traveling back in time and killing Nora. I can't see him going first.

[Sozzeled]

While I feel like that is something a showrunner might think makes for an excellent story, I find it very hard to believe there's a reality where Barry becomes Flash and fights bad guys but DOESN'T face the kind of adversity you're talking about. It's easier for me to believe he wouldn't become Flash at all in that scenario.

But then, I also have a problem with that. A great deal has been made of Nora's death changing Barry forever, but it's still the accident that happens over a decade later that turns him into the Flash. A timeline where Nora is alive AND he becomes Flash only reinforces this. I've never looked at Nora's death as the reason Barry becomes a hero, not in the same way the death of the Waynes propels a young Bruce Wayne into taking on the mantle of the Bat. But if I'm wrong, then he wouldn't be Flash at all in timeline 2.

Something I haven't talked about previously is also the idea that Barry would go back in time for such a selfish reason in the first place. Generally speaking, it's not the heroic thing to do. Superman did it in his first major movie, but he did it in the moment immediately following that tragedy. It wasn't something he did years after the fact just because he wanted a better life for himself and his family, with no consideration for the consequences such a major change to the timeline might have.

In this instance, the only way I see Barry traveling backwards in time is if he comes to the realization that someone else did it first, to mess with him. I can see him traveling back in time to stop RF from traveling back in time and killing Nora. I can't see him going first.

My only issue with Barry not going first is that he would never know someone in a different timeline went back in time to kill his mom. He would have to go first and then someone would have to follow him to keep his mom dead, but then that would make it so there would be three speedsters. Barry, the person who followed him, and then the person from the other timeline.

Time travel is messy!

[Backward Galaxy]

My only issue with Barry not going first is that he would never know someone in a different timeline went back in time to kill his mom. He would have to go first and then someone would have to follow him to keep his mom dead, but then that would make it so there would be three speedsters. Barry, the person who followed him, and then the person from the other timeline.

Not if she was alive in the first timeline and dead in the next two, with RF being the one who killed her the first AND second time. The yellow lightning would be something he would recognize. As soon as he became aware of his own ability to time travel, he would finally realize what happened and would be motivated to go back in time to stop it. This also presumes Barry becomes Flash no matter what happens to Nora.

[speople]

So what you're saying is that Wells had power but the explosion took away his power? And those "last vestiges" would be the healing?

So in your "Three Timeline" theory (which I like very much, BTW), how does Wells (speedster) lose his power? And is he using the tachyon device to "charge up" the suit so he can get it back.

Also, what is your theory on where the RF suit in the future room came from? Was it in the ring? Or was it in another dimension? Or was it in the "speed force"? (Just saying that last part made me throw up in my mouth a little) Did he have the suit all along?

Also, Who was the RF who threatened Joe in his house? Do you think that was Wells? If so, then he's got speed.

Ok, I'm gonna stop because I'm confusing myself.

Thanks, S

So what you're saying is that Wells had power but the explosion took away his power? And those "last vestiges" would be the healing?

So in your "Three Timeline" theory (which I like very much, BTW), how does Wells (speedster) lose his power? And is he using the tachyon device to "charge up" the suit so he can get it back.

Also, what is your theory on where the RF suit in the future room came from? Was it in the ring? Or was it in another dimension? Or was it in the "speed force"? (Just saying that last part made me throw up in my mouth a little) Did he have the suit all along?

Also, Who was the RF who threatened Joe in his house? Do you think that was Wells? If so, then he's got speed.

Ok, I'm gonna stop because I'm confusing myself.

Thanks, S

As per the quote, Wells carried some latent power of the suit within him even after he took it off.
However to strike a universal balance, the explosion removed virtually all trace of the super-powers of those who previously had them (including Wells and the suit).

The difference between faster than light (for time travel), and Barry's current Mach 1 or so speed, is vast. In comparison, Mach 1 is almost negligible.

In such an analogy, even after losing the "power" due to the explosion, Harrison and the suit, could still travel at the velocity similar to what Barry is travelling at now (Mach 1), due to the last vestiges of latent energy still stored within them due to at one time being an object/person of truly enormous power.

Therefore the "last vestiges" are some healing and the power to travel at around Mach 1. The suit definitely needs recharging somehow though if it's going to take it's wearer beyond light again, which is why Wells has the device, and why he's always encouraging Barry to kick it up a notch (is Wells secretly siphoning off some speed energy? in Barry's cosmic treadmill room)

Before he altered timeline 2, turned it into a roundabout and entered timeline 3, Wells was elsewhere in the now timeline 2. If he's really Rip Hunter (he could have used Rip's time machine (just like in a H G Wells novel) to go to a point in timeline 2 and remove Eobard's suit from wherever it was stored before going to confront Barry.

Re locations:

RF in Barry's house: Wells
RF in Joe's house: Eobard
RF in Mercury labs: Eobard
RF on rooftop, street racing and in the stadium: Wells
RF in forcefield and in the final fight: Eobard.

Both Eobard and Wells CAN have the suit in the same timeline, because Eobard's is from the future of the current timeline (3) and Wells' suit is from the now defunct timeline (2).

[speople]

@ Backward: Getting over ones mom dying under such circumstances is hard for anyone to get over.
In ANY timeline, after Barry is born, he would eventually become The Flash, but only in a timeline where Nora is killed would he become a great hero because of his ability to overcome SUCH loss and tragedy. (There's a big difference between having the power to do something, and having the conviction to use it and use it well).

Re going first: If you're mom is murdered, and you've got the ability to time travel, you're almost certainly going to go back in time to see who did it and your instinct would be to try and prevent it as well. Therefore in any timeline where Nora is killed, Barry would invariably go "first" and thus end timeline 1.

[shadow4486]

As per the quote, Wells carried some latent power of the suit within him even after he took it off.
However to strike a universal balance, the explosion removed virtually all trace of the super-powers of those who previously had them (including Wells and the suit).

The difference between faster than light (for time travel), and Barry's current Mach 1 or so speed, is vast. In comparison, Mach 1 is almost negligible.

In such an analogy, even after losing the "power" due to the explosion, Harrison and the suit, could still travel at the velocity similar to what Barry is travelling at now (Mach 1), due to the last vestiges of latent energy still stored within them due to at one time being an object/person of truly enormous power.

Therefore the "last vestiges" are some healing and the power to travel at around Mach 1. The suit definitely needs recharging somehow though if it's going to take it's wearer beyond light again, which is why Wells has the device, and why he's always encouraging Barry to kick it up a notch (is Wells secretly siphoning off some speed energy? in Barry's cosmic treadmill room)

Before he altered timeline 2, turned it into a roundabout and entered timeline 3, Wells was elsewhere in the now timeline 2. If he's really Rip Hunter (he could have used Rip's time machine (just like in a H G Wells novel) to go to a point in timeline 2 and remove Eobard's suit from wherever it was stored before going to confront Barry.

Re locations:

RF in Barry's house: Wells
RF in Joe's house: Wells
RF in Mercury labs: Eobard
RF on rooftop, street racing and in the stadium: Wells
RF in forcefield and in the final fight: Eobard.

Both Eobard and Wells CAN have the suit in the same timeline, because Eobard's is from the future of the current timeline (3) and Wells' suit is from the now defunct timeline (2).

So the suit having the power (latent power) I would assume that would be "Speed Force" power? It can't simply be the suit that allows someone to move at superspeed or even convey superspeed power upon an ordinary person, correct?

So he's recharging the suit to do what? Get back to his time? Get his speed back? To defeat Barry. He can do this last one by just telling Barry to run slower. Instead of him yelling, "Run, Barry. Run!" he'd just say, "Hmm, let's see where this goes if you just stand there."

And here's something completely separate...Cisco and Caitlin know that Wells, a mild mannered scientist who's (by their knowledge) disabled. He just got his (bleep) handed to him by a ruthless killer who is faster than Barry. He may have been punched more times than a boxer in a 15 round bout but he's gonna come back to work the next day with all the cuts and crap on his face COMPLETELY HEALED? And that's not gonna throw off some red flags in Cisco and Caitlin's minds. They were helping bandage him up, so they know the extent of his injuries. This has to be explained somehow. Caitlin is a biologist but she couldn't just say "Oh, I didn't notice." Unless... unless.... she's in on the whole thing!!!!!

Wait, wait...I'm not starting any additional conspiracy theories here.

But the "all of a sudden healed" situation can't just be swept under the rug, IMO.

[Backward Galaxy]

@ Backward: Getting over ones mom dying under such circumstances is hard for anyone to get over.
In ANY timeline, after Barry is born, he would eventually become The Flash, but only in a timeline where Nora is killed would he become a great hero because of his ability to overcome SUCH loss and tragedy. (There's a big difference between having the power to do something, and having the conviction to use it and use it well).

I don't buy it. There are many heroes who never had to overcome a murdered loved one to become great heroes, and almost every one of them had to overcome other great adversities. In a timeline where he becomes Flash, he would have to face supervillains, save civilians, encounter other inspirational people, etc... It doesn't work for me.

Re going first: If you're mom is murdered, and you've got the ability to time travel, you're almost certainly going to go back in time to see who did it and your instinct would be to try and prevent it as well. Therefore in any timeline where Nora is killed, Barry would invariably go "first" and thus end timeline 1.

That's not what the hero does. That's not how these stories are built. If he did that, he wouldn't be playing the role of hero anymore. That doesn't work for me.

[DigificWriter]

@speople: You're unnecessarily over-complicating things with all these theories. It's fairly straightforward storytelling apart from the time-travel elements: Wells is the RF and a time-traveler; he killed Nora Allen, and Barry went back in time to stop him, but couldn't and had to settle for saving his younger self.

[Exedore]

Sadly the tragic origin is what is popular now. See MOS or SV. And Geoff Johns brought Barry back to life in the comics with a tragic past and it's Geoff's work that is informing this show.

Yes the tragedy was brought about by RF but Geoff established in Flashpoint that it's a bad idea for Barry to go back and undo that because that results in the chaos that was the Flashpoint timeline. :/

[Sozzeled]

Any theory could be right, we will just need to wait it all out! Probably won't know a whole lot more until the season finale.

[speople]

So the suit having the power (latent power) I would assume that would be "Speed Force" power? It can't simply be the suit that allows someone to move at superspeed or even convey superspeed power upon an ordinary person, correct?

So he's recharging the suit to do what? Get back to his time? Get his speed back? To defeat Barry. He can do this last one by just telling Barry to run slower. Instead of him yelling, "Run, Barry. Run!" he'd just say, "Hmm, let's see where this goes if you just stand there."

And here's something completely separate...Cisco and Caitlin know that Wells, a mild mannered scientist who's (by their knowledge) disabled. He just got his (bleep) handed to him by a ruthless killer who is faster than Barry. He may have been punched more times than a boxer in a 15 round bout but he's gonna come back to work the next day with all the cuts and crap on his face COMPLETELY HEALED? And that's not gonna throw off some red flags in Cisco and Caitlin's minds. They were helping bandage him up, so they know the extent of his injuries. This has to be explained somehow. Caitlin is a biologist but she couldn't just say "Oh, I didn't notice." Unless... unless.... she's in on the whole thing!!!!!

Wait, wait...I'm not starting any additional conspiracy theories here.

But the "all of a sudden healed" situation can't just be swept under the rug, IMO.

@ Shadow: The suit still conveys a slight connection to the speed force, as does Wells even when the suit isn't being worn. However being worn he can obviously go faster than without it. Together (Wells + suit) = around Mach 1.

Wells' secret room. It's ENTIRELY different to what's before it. So is it possible that the room is the Time Machine and he also heals over time inside there as well ?

Upon watching the clip again earlier today however, my initial reaction was that he wasn't healing so quickly, that it was more of a continuity error between takes.
Similarly, I noticed that Barry's watch showed the same time on 2 different occasions.
@ 17.02 in the ep it shows 6.15 @ 27.20 it shows 6.15 No wonder he's always late, his watch doesn't work haha.

[speople]

@speople: You're unnecessarily over-complicating things with all these theories. It's fairly straightforward storytelling apart from the time-travel elements: Wells is the RF and a time-traveler; he killed Nora Allen, and Barry went back in time to stop him, but couldn't and had to settle for saving his younger self.

When time travel is introduced into a comic, show or w/e, the writers invariably need to lock events down so that plot holes so big you could drive a tank through them don't appear. Quite often, in mediums I've seen, they've failed more than succeeded (imo anyway)

The timeline(s) I presesnt, are (imo) a tight lockdown that explain a lot of what we as viewers have seen so far, what the current Barry's (thinks he's) seen in the past, a time travel element he's invariably going to do in the future as a result of that, and a future after that following the time interference of Barry and the man who was in the yellow suit.

When an event in time is changed, or tried to be changed, unless said interference is somehow locked into a loop so that the initial interference becomes irrelavant anyway, chaos and plot holes loom. (I always liked how they did it in Genesis of the Daleks with Tom's ethical questioning becoming the delaying factor).

It will be interesting to see just how the writers lock down Barry's journeys on a regular basis. They succeeded in keeping the original timeline secure in the power outage episode, but actual time travel lockdowns are harder to do.

As for Wells is a time traveller and the RF, if he WAS the actual RF, he wouldn't need the tachyon device to re-power Eobard's suit. Once switched on, it was obvious and visible that it was re-powering it. (My timelines also offer an explanation as to why that needed to be done).

[speople]

I don't buy it. There are many heroes who never had to overcome a murdered loved one to become great heroes, and almost every one of them had to overcome other great adversities. In a timeline where he becomes Flash, he would have to face supervillains, save civilians, encounter other inspirational people, etc... It doesn't work for me.



That's not what the hero does. That's not how these stories are built. If he did that, he wouldn't be playing the role of hero anymore. That doesn't work for me.

Heroes are succeptible to emotions too. In the first Superman film you mentioned, Reeve immediately changed time. Barry doesn't know he can time travel yet, what's not to say that when he realises he can, that his first stop won't be the night his mom died.