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  1. #1
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    Where in the world is Merlyn?

    K so, Merlyn in episode 7 was nice but where has he been? He's probably on the run from the league, but I'm not sure. If he does come back, it would be a perfect way to introduce ra'as for season 3.

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    He is on the run since Moira contacted Ra's al Ghul and said that Merlyn was still alive.

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    OP – Not sure if you recall this, but Merlyn actually showed up briefly in the Barry Allen two-parter. Just saying, 'cause I got the impression that you think his most recent appearance was following Moira's trial.

    I'm imagining that he's trying to figure out a way to keep Ra's and the League from finding him, now that they know what he was up to and that he's still alive. I guess they don't agree with his methods...... Anyway, up until "Heir to the Demon", I thought for sure Merlyn would somehow win Ra's favor once again by offering to kill/capture Sara, and succeeding. Since Nyssa released Sara, however, that seems unlikely — although, Ra's himself had no part in the release, and therefore it could be rendered void.

    Somehow, you've gotta know Merlyn will find a way out of this.


    On the other hand... at present, there is the possibility, however slim, that Malcolm Merlyn really is dead. Think about it, Moira could have been going through her own "ghosts" dilemma — like how Oliver saw Ghost-Slade and fought with him in the Arrowcave... and made a big mess. Perhaps Moira had a similar experience, and saw Merlyn kill her driver.

    Like I said, this is slim — very slim — but it's still a possibility, since Merlyn has just vanished, and the last time we saw him he was somehow aware of Thea's lineage. But if only Moira, Walter, and Dr. Gil (Gill?) knew about that, then who told Merlyn? Did he figure it out some other way? Probably the doctor told him, but then it's strange that he said nothing about the matter to Moira or Walter when they paid him to keep quiet about Thea's parentage — especially given that he was most likely the one who gave Merlyn that information in the first place.

    So, what this could possibly mean is that Moira unwittingly gave disinformation to Ra's. I can't be certain, but it seems unlikely that he'll be pleased when he learns that she was "lying" (there's a reason I put this in quotation marks: because Ra's won't know that she was just hallucinating). She could very well end up on the ****-lists of Slade, Blood, and Ra's.

    Anyone else thinking Moira Queen just won't/can't possibly make it out of Season Two alive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob14 View Post
    OP – Not sure if you recall this, but Merlyn actually showed up briefly in the Barry Allen two-parter. Just saying, 'cause I got the impression that you think his most recent appearance was following Moira's trial.

    I'm imagining that he's trying to figure out a way to keep Ra's and the League from finding him, now that they know what he was up to and that he's still alive. I guess they don't agree with his methods...... Anyway, up until "Heir to the Demon", I thought for sure Merlyn would somehow win Ra's favor once again by offering to kill/capture Sara, and succeeding. Since Nyssa released Sara, however, that seems unlikely — although, Ra's himself had no part in the release, and therefore it could be rendered void.

    Somehow, you've gotta know Merlyn will find a way out of this.


    On the other hand... at present, there is the possibility, however slim, that Malcolm Merlyn really is dead. Think about it, Moira could have been going through her own "ghosts" dilemma — like how Oliver saw Ghost-Slade and fought with him in the Arrowcave... and made a big mess. Perhaps Moira had a similar experience, and saw Merlyn kill her driver.

    Like I said, this is slim — very slim — but it's still a possibility, since Merlyn has just vanished, and the last time we saw him he was somehow aware of Thea's lineage. But if only Moira, Walter, and Dr. Gil (Gill?) knew about that, then who told Merlyn? Did he figure it out some other way? Probably the doctor told him, but then it's strange that he said nothing about the matter to Moira or Walter when they paid him to keep quiet about Thea's parentage — especially given that he was most likely the one who gave Merlyn that information in the first place.

    So, what this could possibly mean is that Moira unwittingly gave disinformation to Ra's. I can't be certain, but it seems unlikely that he'll be pleased when he learns that she was "lying" (there's a reason I put this in quotation marks: because Ra's won't know that she was just hallucinating). She could very well end up on the ****-lists of Slade, Blood, and Ra's.

    Anyone else thinking Moira Queen just won't/can't possibly make it out of Season Two alive?
    In regards to how Merlyn found out about Thea: re-watch 2x07, near the end when he confronts Moira after killing her driver. He mentions having contacts in the DA's office, and we know Donner (the ADA who took Vertigo) had found a trump card, which Laurel then confronted Moira about. When Merlyn confronted Moira, he seemed to intimate that he had pushed his contact in the D.A.'s office (Donner, perhaps?) to look into Thea's birth circumstances.

    As for where Merlyn's been..... the man has shown he's quite clever, so even if he's been dodging League agents the entire time since, he's also probably been planning to confront Thea himself. As for why he hasn't confronted Oliver as of yet.... Merlyn is the most confusing character. He's done everything he could to not kill Oliver since finding out his secret, and when he did fight him in the finale it was to keep him from disarming his device. Or rather, making Oliver think thus. I think Merlyn almost feels as though Oliver and he are kindred spirits, and in a way they are. I don't think Oliver and he will ever be buddies, but I can see them occasionally being forced to work together in the series, but with Merlyn's primary role continuing to be that of a recurring antagonist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    As for where Merlyn's been..... the man has shown he's quite clever, so even if he's been dodging League agents the entire time since, he's also probably been planning to confront Thea himself. As for why he hasn't confronted Oliver as of yet.... Merlyn is the most confusing character. He's done everything he could to not kill Oliver since finding out his secret, and when he did fight him in the finale it was to keep him from disarming his device. Or rather, making Oliver think thus. I think Merlyn almost feels as though Oliver and he are kindred spirits, and in a way they are. I don't think Oliver and he will ever be buddies, but I can see them occasionally being forced to work together in the series, but with Merlyn's primary role continuing to be that of a recurring antagonist.
    But why would he want Oliver to find out that he's still alive? Keep in mind, Oliver did succeed in minimizing the damage resultant from Merlyn's earthquake device. He didn't stop it entirely, but Merlyn's designs weren't wholly successful either. Plus, with the League after him, now, why fight two battles when one can just be avoided for the present time?

    I've also been confused as to why Merlyn didn't kill Oliver. Sure, that would mean the show's over, and that would suck. But it's not like Merlyn even tried to kill him. And yet he killed Robert Queen, Frank Chen, Adam Hunt, etc. I think Merlyn has a few reasons for not wanting Oliver dead (at least, up until the Season One finale). Firstly, part of Merlyn's deal with Moira was that she and her family would be kept safe as long as she cooperated with the Undertaking. Secondly, Oliver was Tommy's best friend (despite their falling out toward the end of the season), and probably, after Malcolm revealed to Tommy that he was in fact the Dark Archer, Malcolm realized that Tommy would know he killed Oliver and would hate him for it (had he done so during their last encounter in "Sacrifice"). But also, I think it's entirely plausible that Malcolm believed (and maybe still believes) he could corrupt Oliver (I don't think he sees the two of them as kindred spirits, but rather as potential allies).

    I think it's extremely likely that Malcolm and Oliver will end up joining forces at some point to fight Slade. Since Slade is out to destroy everything and everyone Oliver values or loves, that automatically unites Oliver and Malcolm in their desire to keep Moira and Thea safe (Malcolm wants to have a relationship with Thea, and he hasn't killed Moira yet, so he obviously cares for her... at least, to a degree).

  6. #6
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    I've also been confused as to why Merlyn didn't kill Oliver. Sure, that would mean the show's over, and that would suck. But it's not like Merlyn even tried to kill him.
    Sorry to be nitpicky (I know, I'm a pain in the butt!), but Malcolm actually tried to kill Oliver once, in the "Damaged" episode. He sent a hired killer to shoot Oliver, right after the Ollie/Laurel liplock. It was a guy who had sneaked into Oliver's party by pretending to be a barman. In the deleted scenes you see Laurel descending the stairs from Oliver's room, and then you see the killer in the bar. In the final cut you only see him knocking on Oliver's door, asking if he can bring him anything to drink, then Ollie opens the door, fights with the guy and finally Quentin saves the day by bursting in and shooting the killer.

    Moira understands that the guy was sent by Merlyn, so she goes and confronts him, making her famous "paper cut" speech (those who are as nutty fans as I am will know what I'm talking about!). Anyway, I think this was the first time that Moira stood up to Malcolm. So, yes, Malcolm did try to kill Oliver once, even before he was sure that Oliver was the Hood. But maybe you were only referring to their final fight in "Sacrifice"?

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    As evaba said, once Merlyn tried the very first time (in "Damaged") to kill Oliver, he didn't try very hard again. I still believe he had his suspicions, because honestly? The skill Merlyn has, there's really no way Oliver could have beaten him in the "Year's End" fight. They both came away scarred but Merlyn could have dealt a much more devastating blow. A single arrow to the spine would've removed the threat of the Hood forever, and Merlyn had time to put, what, two arrows into Oliver when his back was turned? Not to mention, when Oliver confronted Merlyn in his office, Merlyn spent more time trying to convince the Hood to become his ally. "You can't stop what's coming, nor should you. This city needs what is about to happen in order to survive."

    In regards to my 'kindred spirits' comment: I simply meant both of them have lost someone important to them, and that drove them to try and save the city in the best way they knew how. They also both received training and both favor arrows for delivering their message rather than another weapon. But in retrospect, yes, I think the term 'potential allies' suits the two archers better. One thing the producers seem to be going for (and this is one of the few things that I believe them on when it comes to the show) is that the primary villains in the series are never just evil types. From what Tommy said in Season 1, it sounds like Malcolm was a lot more loving and caring prior to his departure after Rebecca's death. But the thing that gets me is that he spent 20 years trying to figure out how he could save the city. Think about it. Oliver and Tommy were supposedly around 10 when he returned, and they were closing on thirty when the Undertaking happened (I'm sure evaba will post their actual ages soon enough...). So clearly, he spent a lot longer than five years finding different ways. My guess is that he started the original Undertaking on his own, than found allies in Frank CHen and later Robert Queen, as well as the others who we saw meeting him, Moira, and Frank. But after however long that was (10-15 years, roughly?) he decided on the new Undertaking and convinced Frank and Robert to do it (and later Moira). Merlyn was, for all intents and purposes, a shattered man before his visit to Nanda Parbat and was reforged in those two years he spent training. Merlyn's intentions at the start were good, but of course, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    That's why, despite the apparent 'evilness' of Deathstroke's plan (I'm calling Present Day Slade Deathstroke to separate the present from the past Slade), I don't think it's as simple as we're being led to believe. The writers and producers have said that Deathstroke's plan will shock Oliver, and if it was simply vengeance against Oliver for the death of Shado, that wouldn't shock Oliver. Also, Slade on the island is half-mad with grief and Mirakuru clouding his judgment, while Deathstroke is cold and calculating in the present. I suspect that Deathstroke might well be trying to teach Oliver more lessons as he treid to do as Slade on the Island. So in the end, you can be sure that Deathstroke's plan will, from his POV, make sense as something other than an evil plot.

    Like Rob14, I'm sure that Malcolm will have to be part of the fight against Deathstroke. Why? Well, there's Thea for one. Merlyn seems intent on replacing Tommy with her (at least from what I can tell from his conversations with MOira, particularly those in 2x08), and despite Moira's continual standing up to him he has yet to kill her. So one has to wonder if perhaps he still has lingering feelings for her. His threat to Thea and Moira in 1x23 was made in the heat of battle and when he was probably at his angriest. Not to mention, he assumed Oliver wouldn't be making it out of there. Which of course, means he fell for the classic villain cliche of giving the hero a reason to screw him over....

    As I've said.... Merlyn is the most confusing character because they've done a tremendous job of making him Oliver's, ahem, dark reflection.

  8. #8
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    Putting arrows through some poor souls.

    The show has missed him. Imagine him and Slade in the same scene. The badassery.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    Sorry to be nitpicky (I know, I'm a pain in the butt!), but Malcolm actually tried to kill Oliver once, in the "Damaged" episode. He sent a hired killer to shoot Oliver, right after the Ollie/Laurel liplock. It was a guy who had sneaked into Oliver's party by pretending to be a barman. In the deleted scenes you see Laurel descending the stairs from Oliver's room, and then you see the killer in the bar. In the final cut you only see him knocking on Oliver's door, asking if he can bring him anything to drink, then Ollie opens the door, fights with the guy and finally Quentin saves the day by bursting in and shooting the killer.

    Moira understands that the guy was sent by Merlyn, so she goes and confronts him, making her famous "paper cut" speech (those who are as nutty fans as I am will know what I'm talking about!). Anyway, I think this was the first time that Moira stood up to Malcolm. So, yes, Malcolm did try to kill Oliver once, even before he was sure that Oliver was the Hood. But maybe you were only referring to their final fight in "Sacrifice"?
    I remember that scene, but I'm not convinced the man was actually supposed to kill Oliver. Remember, Merlyn's primary leverage over Moira was her children. Why would he want Oliver dead? If the guy had killed Oliver, Moira would have been absolutely livid — she may very well have turned on Malcolm then, and just sent Thea away for the time being. What if Thea had been caught in the crossfire, and both she and Oliver had been killed? Just too big a risk for Malcolm to take. I think he just suspected, like probably everyone else, that Oliver could in fact be the SC Vigilante, and wanted to know for certain if this was true. Problem is, Lance intervened and killed the guy, and only a short while after Oliver was cleared of all charges. So, Merlyn didn't bother with him after that.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    As evaba said, once Merlyn tried the very first time (in "Damaged") to kill Oliver, he didn't try very hard again. I still believe he had his suspicions, because honestly? The skill Merlyn has, there's really no way Oliver could have beaten him in the "Year's End" fight. They both came away scarred but Merlyn could have dealt a much more devastating blow. A single arrow to the spine would've removed the threat of the Hood forever, and Merlyn had time to put, what, two arrows into Oliver when his back was turned? Not to mention, when Oliver confronted Merlyn in his office, Merlyn spent more time trying to convince the Hood to become his ally. "You can't stop what's coming, nor should you. This city needs what is about to happen in order to survive."
    As far as the "Damaged" topic is concerned, see my previous comments to evaba.

    Beyond that, it is strange Merlyn didn't just paralyze the Vigilante in "Year's End". But then, I think in some measure he had respect for the Hood. I mean, respect for him as a fighter. Merlyn of course was the better of the two — pretty much throughout the first season — whether or not they were on par in "Sacrifice" is, I think, debatable. Not only that, but for all Merlyn knew, the Green Hooded Vigilante Guy had no actual connections to The Undertaking, even though very many of his targets were involved with that operation — he could still have been just some guy in a green hood who hates one-percenters.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    In regards to my 'kindred spirits' comment: I simply meant both of them have lost someone important to them, and that drove them to try and save the city in the best way they knew how. They also both received training and both favor arrows for delivering their message rather than another weapon. But in retrospect, yes, I think the term 'potential allies' suits the two archers better. One thing the producers seem to be going for (and this is one of the few things that I believe them on when it comes to the show) is that the primary villains in the series are never just evil types. From what Tommy said in Season 1, it sounds like Malcolm was a lot more loving and caring prior to his departure after Rebecca's death. But the thing that gets me is that he spent 20 years trying to figure out how he could save the city. Think about it. Oliver and Tommy were supposedly around 10 when he returned, and they were closing on thirty when the Undertaking happened (I'm sure evaba will post their actual ages soon enough...). So clearly, he spent a lot longer than five years finding different ways. My guess is that he started the original Undertaking on his own, than found allies in Frank CHen and later Robert Queen, as well as the others who we saw meeting him, Moira, and Frank. But after however long that was (10-15 years, roughly?) he decided on the new Undertaking and convinced Frank and Robert to do it (and later Moira). Merlyn was, for all intents and purposes, a shattered man before his visit to Nanda Parbat and was reforged in those two years he spent training. Merlyn's intentions at the start were good, but of course, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    Actually, Tommy had just turned 28 during the events of "Dead to Rights" (see the engraving on his tombstone in Season Two). So, considering Malcolm left when Tommy was eight, returned two years later... yeah, 18 years planning for The Undertaking. No one can say Malcolm isn't one hell of a patient guy!

    Also, very good point about the "road to hell" and the villainous characters in the series. It's not like they're just out to cause mischief — in Malcolm's case, he suffered a horrible tragedy. He basically tortured himself by listening to his wife's last message to him... over and over again. Then, of course, being trained by the LoA and becoming such a BA obviously made him go a tiny bit nuts...

    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    That's why, despite the apparent 'evilness' of Deathstroke's plan (I'm calling Present Day Slade Deathstroke to separate the present from the past Slade), I don't think it's as simple as we're being led to believe. The writers and producers have said that Deathstroke's plan will shock Oliver, and if it was simply vengeance against Oliver for the death of Shado, that wouldn't shock Oliver. Also, Slade on the island is half-mad with grief and Mirakuru clouding his judgment, while Deathstroke is cold and calculating in the present. I suspect that Deathstroke might well be trying to teach Oliver more lessons as he treid to do as Slade on the Island. So in the end, you can be sure that Deathstroke's plan will, from his POV, make sense as something other than an evil plot.
    Right now, Deathstroke's plan does look as though it's motivated by nothing more than vengeance... and he's got valid gripes with Oliver. But there's got to be more going on that just hasn't been revealed in-series yet. It strikes me as almost bizarre how calm Deathstroke is versus how Slade is on the island... and by that I mean one minute going into kill them all mode, and the next reverting back to the old Slade (with a little help from Sara and Ollie).

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    In reading the Season 2 Spoilers thread, there's an intriguing bit about Episode 16 and the set-up it plays for the finale. I suspect that Deathstroke's plan will attract ARGUS's attention, as David Ramsey seems to imply that the Suicide Squad and Team Arrow will be joining forces against Deathstroke.

    More thoughts on Merlyn: from what the producers have intimated, we will probably see Merlyn at least one more time this season. My guess would be the finale as a surprise ally. Of course, the really amusing thing would be if ARGUS captured him and he's part of the Suicide Squad....

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    In reading the Season 2 Spoilers thread, there's an intriguing bit about Episode 16 and the set-up it plays for the finale. I suspect that Deathstroke's plan will attract ARGUS's attention, as David Ramsey seems to imply that the Suicide Squad and Team Arrow will be joining forces against Deathstroke.

    More thoughts on Merlyn: from what the producers have intimated, we will probably see Merlyn at least one more time this season. My guess would be the finale as a surprise ally. Of course, the really amusing thing would be if ARGUS captured him and he's part of the Suicide Squad....
    I like that idea. In the final battle of episode 23, It's Suicide Squad, Argus, and Team Arrow against HIVE, Deathstroke, and Blood. The league is up in the air as of now. Malcom Merlyn, in my mind, is neither an ally or an enemy, but he could be a deciding factor in the war. If he chooses Arrow, (which is most likely because he needs help with the League) or if he somehow finds about Slade and goes to him for help.

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    If Merlyn is involved, I doubt he'll really be on a particular side.

    He might fight Slade simply to protect Thea and Moira, since he seems to care for them. But I can also see him fighting Team Arrow, because, assuming Ra's doesn't agree with Nyssa's decision to release Sara from the League, then killing Sara could possibly be a way for Merlyn to get back into Ra's good graces, thereby rendering any help from Arrow, Waller, or anyone else unnecessary. Also, if he does wind up on Ra's good side again, it probably means he'll have the League's support against Team Arrow in the future.

    Then again, Merlyn could also show up briefly during the climactic battle, kill Sara with an arrow (thereby revealing to Ollie that he's still alive), and then go to the Queen mansion and abduct Thea. I guess it really depends on what's most important to Merlyn when the time comes — whether he wants to get back on Ra's good side, or stop the man who wants to kill his daughter.

    That aside, considering what Drunkenmunkey posted above, if we end up with all those groups coming together in one episode... yeah, now it makes sense why the show is saving up production funding for this finale! Not only that, but there's also the possibility that they could bring Barry Allen back for the finale... as The Flash!

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    I had another thought.... they've said Katrina Law will be back as Nyssa again this season, right? Well, my personal guess would not be that she would be after Sara, but Merlyn. She likely recruits the Arrow and Canary to help her, thus revealing to Oliver that his nemesis survived their battle (if Oliver doesn't find out prior to that). But I'd guess Merlyn kills Nyssa, thus bringing even more condemnation on his head from the League, and possibly trouble for Team Arrow if he holds them responsible.

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    Merlyn is a wildcard. My guess is we'll never know what is going on with him. It may have been mentioned elsewhere on this forum (apologies to the original author if so), but we could see a re-enactment of Ivo's psycho stunt where Deathstroke has Oliver, Sara and Thea captive. Deathstroke puts Oliver in the position to choose whether Sara or Thea dies. Enter Merlyn to save Thea and Oliver saves Sara. Then the threesome square off against Deathstroke and manage to subdue him. In the melee, Merlyn disappears with Thea as part of the S2 cliffhanger. Anything's possible at this stage.

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