Was Rumple really that bad to Bae?

[Degobunny]

I don't trust Neal that he wouldn't go around trying to kill Rumple with it.

Except Bae/Neal is not a killer he could not even consider killing Pan.

[Degobunny]

Yes. But the real Rumplestilskin never would have done that. It's because of his magic that he did all of those stuff. It messed with his brain. I'm convinced that it did. It was dark magic after all.

Then why should Bae let him near Henry? According to you Rumple can not be held responsible for his actions as the dark one and last I checked he still is the dark one.

[SteelyGal]

So he was still willing to leave his father in a world where Pan could kill him? Why is Neal better?

All Neal was trying to do was get Henry away from Rumple because he didn't trust him. So far, Neal has shown it is not in his nature to kill but it is in Rumple's. Rumple even said as much when Neal stopped him from killing the two Lost Boys. Neal saved his father's life once before. I think he would do it again.

I don't trust Neal that he wouldn't go around trying to kill Rumple with it.

So Neal should trust Rumple with Henry's life but Rumple shouldn't trust his own life with Neal? As I mentioned above, Neal saved his father's life once before. If anyone can be trusted, I think it would be Neal.

[super_j_man]

Yes. But the real Rumplestilskin never would have done that. It's because of his magic that he did all of those stuff. It messed with his brain. I'm convinced that it did. It was dark magic after all.

Your argument is the classic "the devil made me do it" argument. While it is true that Rumple was under the effects of dark magic, what this discussion is really boiling down to is: do you blame Rumple for his actions as the dark one and did Bae have reason to resent his father. This argument can be debated for days after days. After reading some of your posts, I don't think you're appreciating the complexity of the relationship. Your argument is valid that Rumple loved his son and I think deep down Bae knows it. In this episode it seemed that Rumple and Bae were putting their differences aside and becoming father and son........until Rumple admitted that he was going to kill Henry. IMO, evil is evil no matter how you look at it. Forgiveness is an admirable quality, but denial isn't. Bae knows what it is father is and no matter how much Rumple loves his son, until Rumple can really prove that he's changed for the good nothing else matters.

BTW, it's not that I hate Rumple nor do I think any of the other posters on this thread do. But I can't see him as a truly "good" character until he completely gives up his dark magic. I actually like how Rumple is presented and feel sympathy toward him. But I also don't blame Bae for the way he feels and not fully trusting his father. I don't think it's unnecessary drama. I think the relationship is well written.

That's my two cents on the matter...

[moviefan2k4]

Rumple committed his first murder to kill the Dark One and take his powers, so you can't blame the magic itself. The original Dark One tricked Rumple, but he still did it pre-powered.

[superhippie2000]

Good points. I still waffle on how being the Dark One really effects Rumple and his actions. But, since being the Dark One, he has primarily used his powers for nefarious reasons.

Maybe it just makes him more likely to do stuff. like prevents him from having self control or something.

[dreamsofnever]

The way I see it, the show is basically equating magic use in the way that Rumple and Regina use it with drug addiction. If you look at in those terms, is a drug addicted parent really "that bad" to their child?

Ultimately, the tragedy of Rumple is that it was never a lack of love of his son and in the beginning, his intentions were good. But in practice, he made some very poor decisions and though Bae begged him to quit being the dark one and to quit hurting people, he continued to do so and just couldn't stop himself from getting darker and darker.

For a child, that must have been a terrifying thing. And for a child of an addict, it's heartbreaking to have a parent who just won't quit something, no matter how much you beg them. It's hard to watch your parent change into someone else. In this case, Rumple became someone very very scary as the Dark One.

The emotional/psychological damage was done to Bae in spite of Rumple's intentions and that sort of thing can't just be undone. (Similar to the damage done to Emma, in spite of Snow and Charming's intentions and good reasons for sending her away) And as shown at the end of the episode, Rumple is still struggling with whether or not to kill Henry to save himself. So I don't think that Neal was wrong in wanting to protect Henry or in his reactions to Rumple with this episode.

[Anu]

All Neal was trying to do was get Henry away from Rumple because he didn't trust him. So far, Neal has shown it is not in his nature to kill but it is in Rumple's. Rumple even said as much when Neal stopped him from killing the two Lost Boys. Neal saved his father's life once before. I think he would do it again.

So Neal should trust Rumple with Henry's life but Rumple shouldn't trust his own life with Neal? As I mentioned above, Neal saved his father's life once before. If anyone can be trusted, I think it would be Neal.

When exactly did Neal save Rumple's life?! I remember Rumple saving Bae's life.

[Anu]

All Neal was trying to do was get Henry away from Rumple because he didn't trust him. So far, Neal has shown it is not in his nature to kill but it is in Rumple's. Rumple even said as much when Neal stopped him from killing the two Lost Boys. Neal saved his father's life once before. I think he would do it again.



So Neal should trust Rumple with Henry's life but Rumple shouldn't trust his own life with Neal? As I mentioned above, Neal saved his father's life once before. If anyone can be trusted, I think it would be Neal.

Neal has always hated Rumple so it's hard to know what he would do once he had the dagger. Considering what he did to Rumple at the end it's hard to trust him too.

[Anu]

It's still weird that Neal would think that his own father would kill his own grandson. No matter how evil Bae has seen him, he knows that family is a big thing for Rumple. That's what baffles me the most.

[SteelyGal]

When exactly did Neal save Rumple's life?! I remember Rumple saving Bae's life.

In the ep, The Queen is Dead", Rumple is stabbed with poison by Hook. Neal agrees to sail Hook's ship back to Storybrooke in order to save his father's life. He tells Emma that despite his differences with his father, he doesn't want him to die.

[SteelyGal]

Neal has always hated Rumple so it's hard to know what he would do once he had the dagger. Considering what he did to Rumple at the end it's hard to trust him too.

The only threat of Rumple dying is if he tried to take down Pan and there was no need for Rumple to do that since Neal had Henry. So when Neal left him behind, he didn't leave him behind to die. Neal believes in Rumple's powers and his desire for self preservation so he assumed that Rumple would find a way to live and didn't need his help doing it.

There is a difference between hating what your father has become and done to you and wanting him dead. The only way Neal would ever consider killing Rumple is if he saw Rumple standing over Henry or Emma about to rip out their hearts. He had the chance to kill his father when he was incapacitated but chose to let him live. He doesn't want his father dead; he just wants to save Henry. That is all he is focused on right now - that and saving Emma.

[Anu]

The only threat of Rumple dying is if he tried to take down Pan and there was no need for Rumple to do that since Neal had Henry. So when Neal left him behind, he didn't leave him behind to die. Neal believes in Rumple's powers and his desire for self preservation so he assumed that Rumple would find a way to live and didn't need his help doing it.

There is a difference between hating what your father has become and done to you and wanting him dead. The only way Neal would ever consider killing Rumple is if he saw Rumple standing over Henry or Emma about to rip out their hearts. He had the chance to kill his father when he was incapacitated but chose to let him live. He doesn't want his father dead; he just wants to save Henry. That is all he is focused on right now - that and saving Emma.

Who knows, maybe Pan wants to kill Rumple after what he did to save Henry. Maybe he needed Neal's help to get home? I still believe that Rumple became the dark one because of Neal, and I will not change that opinion. When was he incapacitatated? When he immobilized him at the latest episode? He couldn't kill him that way, he needs the dagger.

[liana]

When exactly did Neal save Rumple's life?! I remember Rumple saving Bae's life.

The moment when he thought his father was going to die, due to Hook's poison, even though Bae didn't want to go to Storybroke, he was told going there was the only way to save his father because there was magic there. So, he decided to leave his fiancée behind, and offered himself to bring Hook's ship there, since it was the fastest way to get there. So, he did play a very important role in saving Rumple's life. And he did that, without trusting his father or believing him. He did it because he couldn't see his father die.

As for ther reason why Neal wanted to dagger, seems pretty obvious to me. First of all, regardless of what you feel towards Neal, he hates magic, and he would never want the Dark One's powers for himself. Therefore, he would never murder his father and become the Dark One. However, he knows, pretty well, that whoever has the dagger also has the Dark One under his control. If Rumple willingly gave the dagger to Neal, it would simply mean he would never be able to murder his grandson, for the simple reason that Neal was going to say, 'you can't ever kill Henry' and he would be forced to obey him. End of the story.

And Rumple knows that, because that's exactly how he realized August wasn't his son in the first season. He knows pretty well Neal would never, ever want his magic. However, giving Bae his dagger mean renouncing control of his powers. Neal would stop him from killing or doing anything evil he ever wanted to, and Rumple is addicted to power. This addiction made him chose not going with Bae in the first place. Giving him the dagger would be the same as renouncing being the Dark One, and would be a complete reparation towards Bae. It would mean that, this time, between magic and power and Bae, he was chosing Bae.

[SteelyGal]

Who knows, maybe Pan wants to kill Rumple after what he did to save Henry. Maybe he needed Neal's help to get home? I still believe that Rumple became the dark one because of Neal, and I will not change that opinion. When was he incapacitatated? When he immobilized him at the latest episode? He couldn't kill him that way, he needs the dagger.

Hook used Dream Shade that would have killed Rumple until Snow saved him. After Neal had Rumple immobilized with squid ink, he could have used Dream Shade to kill Rumple. Neal lived in Neverland so it is not so farfetch he would know how to get the deadly poison.