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  1. #61
    Incurable Postaholic DA_Champion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    In that case, where do I sign? I brought my own pen.
    OK, so you're as enthusiastic as some of the guys in the comment section of this io9 piece:
    http://io9.com/why-shouldnt-arrow-cr...ust-1168290743

    One guy asks:
    Why can't WB just swallow its pride, give Bruce Timm a call, and call it a day?
    Another guy answers:
    That should honestly be a serious question that someone asks at the next panel.
    It's gotten to the point where it's a glaring issue. It's like benching your one best player, every time you have a big game. Any other coach would be fired.

    I still don't get the love for the people behind the animated universe. Based on the DCAU, I don't see how anybody can be convinced they would write a much better script than Goyer. Further, some of the comic book veterans were behind the disastrous Green Lantern script.

  2. #62
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
    I still don't get the love for the people behind the animated universe. Based on the DCAU, I don't see how anybody can be convinced they would write a much better script than Goyer. Further, some of the comic book veterans were behind the disastrous Green Lantern script.
    I didn't say he should write the script. And you didn't ask if I thought he should write the script. You asked if I thought he should be WB's version of Feige.

    Bruce Timm was one of the genius minds behind what is widely regarded as one of the greatest American cartoon shows of the last 20-25 years (BTAS). That show spawned an extremely successful and cohesive animated universe that lasted for almost 15 years. That's INSANE. They treated the subject matter seriously, but playfully at the same time, the way I feel most comics are best viewed. They were able to be faithful to the comics while telling their own compelling and original stories. The Cadmus arc was phenomenal. Timm and Co. had a vision and they executed it very well in my opinion.

  3. #63
    aka Mainstream05 j03superbat's Avatar
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    DC Animated Movies

    Quote Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
    I still don't get the love for the people behind the animated universe. Based on the DCAU, I don't see how anybody can be convinced they would write a much better script than Goyer. Further, some of the comic book veterans were behind the disastrous Green Lantern script.
    Just curious, did you watch the Cadmus story arc on Justice League Unlimited? To date, that's not only the best run of episodes on ANY superhero animated show ever, that's one of the best adaptations of superheroes in any medium. If you gave me the choice between watching The Dark Knight and those episodes of JLU, I don't think Nolan would win out.

    ETA: as a caveat, you can't watch those episodes for the first time in a vacuum. They do take full advantage of the years of animated continuity that preceded it.

    Also, I don't think I'd consider Guggenheim, Berlanti, Goldenberg, or Green, the writers of Green Lantern, comic book "veterans." ETA: My mistake, Michael Green and Marc Guggenheim actually are comic book writers.
    Last edited by j03superbat; 08-20-2013 at 04:02 PM.

  4. #64
    Incurable Postaholic DA_Champion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j03superbat View Post
    Just curious, did you watch the Cadmus story arc on Justice League Unlimited? To date, that's not only the best run of episodes on ANY superhero animated show ever, that's one of the best adaptations of superheroes in any medium. If you gave me the choice between watching The Dark Knight and those episodes of JLU, I don't think Nolan would win out.

    ETA: as a caveat, you can't watch those episodes for the first time in a vacuum. They do take full advantage of the years of animated continuity that preceded it.

    Also, I don't think I'd consider Guggenheim, Berlanti, Goldenberg, or Green, the writers of Green Lantern, comic book "veterans." ETA: My mistake, Michael Green and Marc Guggenheim actually are comic book writers.
    Geoff Johns was also involved in Green Lantern. He approved of the script.

    I'm glad you liked the Cadmus story, but you can't compare the best of a sample of 3 to the best of a sample of 20 or 30. I might check it out someday, I'm behind in my viewings :-)

  5. #65
    aka Mainstream05 j03superbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
    Geoff Johns was also involved in Green Lantern. He approved of the script.
    He was a creative consultant, there to answer any questions the writers had. Maybe there's some interview out there where he says, "The script is great!" that I don't know about, but he really had no position of authority. The script would've been filmed with or without his approval.
    Last edited by j03superbat; 08-20-2013 at 07:35 PM.

  6. #66
    Nate nate-dog1701d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j03superbat View Post
    I do enjoy reading comics, and part of the fun of reading them is using your imagination to fill in the motion in between panels (much like you use your imagination to create all the visuals while reading a book). But for the same reason that some people would rather wait for the movie adaptation than read a book, some folks need to see that motion.
    I understand that. I'll add that I see adapting novels differently than adapting comics because it takes a different ability to fill in the blanks than it does to completely envision a world based on words alone. I do get a thrill out of seeing Middle-earth interpreted onscreen, for example. Comics are kind of in-between, as they already show the visuals. I also see a difference (less so, admittedly) in adapting a comic to live action. For me, the live action world looks different enough to justify it, even with similar camera angles, lighting, production design, and such. Not that I'd request that over something new, but that's how my mind works.

    To be honest, I do prefer watching movies to reading books, with no slight meant toward reading books. I like visuals, motion, and sound, as well as the nuances of a good actor's performance. But when we're talking about comics I've read (crucial emphasis) being animated, I feel like I've already seen it. So, I can enjoy it, but it doesn't really unlock additional enjoyment for me, generally speaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    But that's a pretty dim view of the voice work being done here. Not saying you're wrong, but that's a statement all right.
    I've come across more negatively than I intend. I don't mean to discredit the work done in these movies in any kind of absolute sense. I'm not a Sith, after all. Obviously, some of the voice casts are better than others, the sound is better in some than others, the animation and designs are better in some than others, etc. It's not as if I get zero satisfaction out of seeing an animated version of a comic I've read. It's just that when I already know the ins and outs of the story and how it looks, and due to the fact that I can imagine voices, sound effects, and the occasional music cue myself, I don't need it. Also, I've seen enough superhero animation that I'm not in a state of starvation for such things. Were animated superheroes some sort of novelty, it might be different. That doesn't take away from the works themselves, which is why I didn't call them valueless, feeble attempts at filmmaking (as a whole). My thoughts only reflect my experience with watching some of these animated adaptations of comics I've read. I won't say it's impossible for one to blow me away, but it's hard to get excited about seeing largely mediocre adaptations when I could at least be seeing new things.

    I'll close by saying I was never trying to argue a point. I was just interested in how others valued the translation from comic to animation and offered a few thoughts. I think I've said my piece, and the thread seems to have moved on, so I guess I will as well.
    Last edited by nate-dog1701d; 09-09-2013 at 12:49 PM.

  7. #67
    Nate nate-dog1701d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    Bruce Timm was one of the genius minds behind what is widely regarded as one of the greatest American cartoon shows of the last 20-25 years (BTAS). That show spawned an extremely successful and cohesive animated universe that lasted for almost 15 years. That's INSANE.
    I don't think I've ever stopped to think about the magnitude of that accomplishment. Very impressive, indeed.

  8. #68
    Incurable Postaholic DA_Champion's Avatar
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    I watched Green Lantern First Flight. It had a more cohesive plot, better dialogue, and more interesting characters than the live action version. I think this is the first time where I agree with the camp that the DCAU > DCCU. I don't think that there was a worthless scene of the father dying at the start. They developed several of the lanterns, and I actually understood why Sinestro switched sides. The villain made sense, though I found later on wikipedia that the guys who built the big yellow lantern actually have a lot of backstory.

    Unlike in the Green Lantern live action movie, the planet "Oa" in First Flight looks like an intergalactic capital, and not an abandoned sewage dump. Further, at no point in First Flight do they re-use the same shot twice.

    With that said, still too much action for my tastes, and I still am under-impressed with how rapidly Hal Jordan becomes the greatest of the Green Lanterns.

  9. #69
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
    With that said, still too much action for my tastes, and I still am under-impressed with how rapidly Hal Jordan becomes the greatest of the Green Lanterns.
    Keep in mind that the runtime restriction necessitates a certain frenetic pace. They are also going to lean on the action because of the target audience.

    And watch Superman vs. The Elite.

  10. #70
    Incurable Postaholic DA_Champion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    And watch Superman vs. The Elite.
    I just did so at your suggestion. It is a higher quality movie, they should make more of where that came from. I laughed several times, and there was a compelling plot. They brought in some new characters, and Lois actually shows up as a character and there are some fun Superman-Lois scenes. I thought the main antagonist would annoy me by having a ridiculously obscene british accent and a union jack shirt, but it actually worked.

    I'm not sure if the theme was adequately resolved in the climax though. The Elite challenge Superman morally, by saying that criminals should be killed and there is a good example when that skeleton guy kills the UN official. Then ... Superman defeats them by overpowering them. The moral that comes out is that you can be good, if you're vastly stronger than your potential opposition. It's not a satisfactory resolution to the moral challenge raised by the elite. Further, I'm not sure Superman was actually stronger than the Elite, so even that doesn't work.

    In other words, the movie suffers from what you accused MoS of suffering, it set up a lot of great questions, and then didn't resolve them, other than through plot holes :-)
    Last edited by DA_Champion; 09-07-2013 at 07:05 AM.

  11. #71
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    Superman vs. The Elite was a great movie one of the best.

    DA watch Batman: Under the Red Hood another great animated movie if you haven't seen it.

  12. #72
    aka Mainstream05 j03superbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
    I don't think that there was a worthless scene of the father dying at the start.
    That was actually one of my disappointments with the film (albeit understandable because of the increasingly frustrating time restrictions that have hampered most of the DCAU films). In the comics, Hal's father and his death carry a tremendous influence over his life decisions. One of the most furious moments I had watching the live-action version was seeing how cheesily they handled it, and how little impact it had on the rest of the film. I think the trauma of losing his father and the way he grows up idolizing him is one of the things that makes the character interesting to me.

  13. #73
    String Bikini Theory BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow's Avatar
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    In many ways the DCAU was superior to the actual DC universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by j03superbat View Post
    I think the trauma of losing his father and the way he grows up idolizing him is one of the things that makes the character interesting to me.
    Not to mention the drama of Hal's enemies (mostly the Sinestro Corps) telling Hal that Martin Jordan died as a fearful coward. Of course it turned out to be a lie but it was a great way to get an emotional response. Then there's Hal blaming Carol's dad for Martin's death. It's assumed that her dad is living it up when Carol actually has to run the company and take care of her dad. None of this is shown in the animated movies or the live action one.

    I think it's also worth noting that Hal's brother blames Hal for driving their mother into an early grave. Jessica didn't want her kids following in their dad's footsteps and seeing Hal flying broke her heart.

    So yeah a really interesting and messed up family dynamics.

  14. #74
    Pirate King Backward Galaxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
    I just did so at your suggestion. It is a higher quality movie, they should make more of where that came from. I laughed several times, and there was a compelling plot. They brought in some new characters, and Lois actually shows up as a character and there are some fun Superman-Lois scenes. I thought the main antagonist would annoy me by having a ridiculously obscene british accent and a union jack shirt, but it actually worked.

    I'm not sure if the theme was adequately resolved in the climax though. The Elite challenge Superman morally, by saying that criminals should be killed and there is a good example when that skeleton guy kills the UN official. Then ... Superman defeats them by overpowering them. The moral that comes out is that you can be good, if you're vastly stronger than your potential opposition. It's not a satisfactory resolution to the moral challenge raised by the elite. Further, I'm not sure Superman was actually stronger than the Elite, so even that doesn't work.
    Superman doesn't defeat them by overpowering them. That's only how he stops them as a threat. Stopping them and beating them are two different things in that movie and it is crucial that they be viewed that way to understand the message of the film. If you don't, you reduce the climax to what you described, Superman overpowering them. But that's not what it is and the actual physical confrontation doesn't really matter. Superman sees that people are turning away from him and the way he does things. Sure, he can punch the Elite until he neutralizes them, but what he does is something more subtle. He shows the entire world what it would be like if Superman resorted to killing. And the reaction you get is stunning. The very same people who applauded the Elite for killing are horrified to see Superman do it. Even the Elite are horrified by it. Disgusted even. Because he represents a purity that we all cling to even while we're justifying this and justifying that and defining morality as ambiguous at best. That Act 3 is the most satisfying conclusion to a pure Superman story I have ever seen.

    ETA: I think it also shows how Superman has faith in us. It would have been absurd if Superman had gone to all the trouble of showing everyone what it would be like for him to kill, and then everyone was fine with it. He knew he could get his point across specifically because he had faith in that part of us that has faith in the pure goodness he represents.

    God, I love that movie.
    Last edited by Backward Galaxy; 09-07-2013 at 11:28 AM.

  15. #75
    Mad Man with a Box! HalJordan4184's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backward Galaxy View Post
    Superman doesn't defeat them by overpowering them. That's only how he stops them as a threat. Stopping them and beating them are two different things in that movie and it is crucial that they be viewed that way to understand the message of the film. If you don't, you reduce the climax to what you described, Superman overpowering them. But that's not what it is and the actual physical confrontation doesn't really matter. Superman sees that people are turning away from him and the way he does things. Sure, he can punch the Elite until he neutralizes them, but what he does is something more subtle. He shows the entire world what it would be like if Superman resorted to killing. And the reaction you get is stunning. The very same people who applauded the Elite for killing are horrified to see Superman do it. Even the Elite are horrified by it. Disgusted even. Because he represents a purity that we all cling to even while we're justifying this and justifying that and defining morality as ambiguous at best. That Act 3 is the most satisfying conclusion to a pure Superman story I have ever seen.
    I totally agree about how this movie ended. Superman didn't win by simply physically stopping the Elite. He showed why going down that path was a bad idea. The levels of insanity and horror people would be welcoming into the world. When Superman seemingly let go of the moral compass people were used to him following, they realized they no longer had any power over their lives. They were horrified at what happens when we create that world. It's almost the exact same situation in Kingdom Come. This time, Superman simply lets the world have it's choice and leaves, rather than try to fight the losing battle.

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