SV = Strong Women, Weak Men

[uncaged]

I think in this particular episode it's Oliver who comes off looking the worst. I mean, even Clark seems surprised to see that Oliver isn't holed up in WT where Chloe wants him to be. I mean, now that was sad. Oliver is a grown man who apparently isn't as high on the priority list for capture as Chloe seems to think if he can just stroll into his Luthorcorp office and then into the DP editor's office. And yet he seems to need her permission to go out and be a hero when she can just go wherever she pleases? They joke about her not being able to leave the world alone when she asks for her laptop, but imo that was just beyond bizarre that Oliver had to make up an excuse to go do his hero duty.

[Nivea]

I'm personally sick and tired of strong women getting the blame for the men being weak. If the men on the show are weak, then they're weak. Women should not have to be similarly weakened in order for men to look strong. Stop the scapegoating. If I want the men on the show to be written as strongly as the women, I'll ask for the men to be written stronger. I'm not going to consider criticizing a show that celebrates strong women as a strike against it.

well said.

[xrayvision]

I understand the thread title didn't bring up this issue. I was responding to something else in my initial comment. Also, I don't understand how you can say it isn't about the men being written weak because of women when you specifically suggest the CW network's focus on writing strong women is correlated to the weak writing for men.

Well, in my first lines, I was commenting on my opinions of the OP's intentions. The 2nd, about the CW's focus, was my own personal opinion.

If that's true, then I believe it's more important to advocate for strong writing for men without any reference to the way women are written. YMMV.

Well, if they're not mutually exclusive, then I think I have to mention the writing of the female characters. But if you look at what I wrote, I wrote other ways they could write strong female characters without absorbing the roles of the male characters. Oliver has been a mess frequently around Chloe this season or even when Chloe was not around & he was pining for her. This type of writing involves her. So I what I like to do is point it out while giving alternative ideas to how to write the female characters strong. Honestly, in Chloe's case, I don't think it could be done since IMO she should have been gone back in season 5 where Lois should have replaced her as a reporter. There should have never been a hacker role for her. If they wanted a hacker, they should have gotten a seperate character, be it male or female. But that's water under a bridge/spilled milk/etc.

Um, well, this episode opened with Lois discussing an article she had been working on. This episode also referenced Lois writing multiple articles in support of the repeal of the VRA. It even showed her being inspired by Perry White's renegade journalism style. Lois has been struggling as a reporter for the same reason Clark's been struggling as a hero. Both Lois and Clark, in this episode, were struggling with feeling powerless against opposition. Clark inspired Lois to support heroes and the repeal of the VRA, Lois then looked to Martha and Perry for inspiration for how to support heroes, and the circle completed itself by showing ordinary people inspiring Clark to keep hope alive.

What I don't like is Lois talking about writing the articles. I want to see her investigating them & writing them rather than just talking about them. Just like I want to see Clark investigating as a reporter & writing his stories and see Clark using his powers & doing his hero work rather than it just being mentioned by him or someone else. I feel like they're both out of their elements. I want to see them both in action in their elements.

For me, I just look at the last 2 episodes and in both of them Clark didn't have the impetus within him to start the inspiration. For Clark, he got the inspiration after it was all said & done (after the climax). I wanted to see him not get bogged down by losing faith after the same theme or a similar theme appeared in Collateral. He did what he had to, but his attitude & personality were just lacking. What I wanted to see is a lack of that scowl/mannerism he had tonight, move forward, inspire Lois to do what she did, and then for the masses to finally get Clark from just doing what he had to do to being glad & happy about what he had to do. If they would have dropped the discussion from Martha about sacrificing herself to protect Clark & dropped the negative attitude Clark had but kept the same inspiration he received from all those people, I would have loved it. But that attitude Clark had again prevented me from recognizing my beloved comic book hero in the Clark Kent in Smallville.

Lois didn't look weak in Ambush. In the end, she stood up to her sister and her father. I definitely would never say Clark strength in that episode was at Lois' expense. I absolutely loathe the idea that a man or a woman can't have a moment of strength or weakness without the person of the opposite sex looking strong or weak by default. Also, I thought Clark looked strong in Abandoned, Patriot, and Icarus. In all three episodes, Clark was a moral and strategic leader of his team. Everyone looked to him for guidance and reassurance. Furthermore, if the nature of a woman supporting a man is so detrimental to a man's strength, I have to wonder why Clark wouldn't have been perceived as strong in Luthor. Did Clark not encourage a woman, Tess, in that episode? Does not Clark, by this logic, look like a strong man?

Well, for a while I thought she did when General Lane was just bossing her around. But in the end, I think she seemed strong because she finally stood up to him & set Lucy straight so that Lucy could finally fix her life. But to me, Lois' strength seemed to come only after Clark stood up several times to General Lane. Otherwise, I think she would have buckled. I don't know. I have to watch the episode again, so I could be wrong.

I agree about Clark being strong in those episodes too. But I think the pinnacle of strong Clark this season was Ambush because he did not sway from his headstrong approach and everyone else benefitted as a result.

I don't think the nature of a woman supporting a man is detrimental to a man's strength as long as she isn't being depended on for the most basic things that should be inherent qualities in the man (such as confidence & other qualities). In real life, such men wouldn't be attractive to women since I'm sure no woman would want such a needy guy. That's probably the best word I can use to describe men on this show.

It seems like a bad habit of the writers that whenever a new person learns Clark's secret, he becomes needy of them. This is what I felt happened between Clark & Lois between last season & this season. Sure, last season Lois inspired him, but Clark didn't seem as needy as he does now with Lois having to supportive in more ways she was last season to get Clark into the same frame of mind he had last season when he didn't rely on her regarding advice relating to his secret since she didn't know his secret then. Instead, the inspiration/advice he got from her was from when they spoke on the phone & she believed she was speaking to the Blur & not Clark. The only one this didn't happen with was Pete, who helped him when he needed backup & gave him advice on things he had experience with that Clark didn't rather than patting him on the back & pepping him up for his upcoming battles, like Clark needs so often now.

I just want Clark & Lois to each do their own things & compare notes & be each other's inspirations without having to do anything extra than just living their lives. This would give the circle of inspiration some much needed subtlety, which this show hasn't been able to do in a long time. And it would allow both to be strong without the expense of the other. It would set Clark & Lois up as Jonathan and Martha except they would reporters (Clark also being a hero) rather than farmers.

[HopeforTomorrow]

I'm not disagreeing with the criticism. I think the criticism is valid. Where you and I disagree is on where the focus of the criticism belongs. I don't like women being used as explanations for male weakness. It does rub me the wrong way because I believe men and women can both shine together. Writing male characters better is my preferred rallying cry.

To the bolded: I'd like to believe that too on this show, but unfortunately, I'd say that the balance is quite off and has been quite off. I don't mind at all if a character such as Lois is written to be strong and supportive, but I'd just like to see Clark being equally written as well. It's been a problem for many seasons, and it's unfortunate that it's still happening this late in the series.

Anyway, I agree that male characters on this show have often been written as insecure, but I personally prefer to focus on just asking for the men to written better. I don't need to bring women into the conversation at all. But, hey, that's just me. You don't have to agree with me. Agree to disagree?

I understand what you're saying. I just think that it depends on if (for example) Clark is written in a scene with Oliver, or if he's written in a scene with Chloe. You're more than likely going to get two different Clark's - and the weaker Clark would most likely be in a Chloe scene I'd bet. JMO

Its been my opinion for a very long time now, and it continues to be my opinion now, that the writers for this show are just flat-out more interested in writing for the female characters over the male characters, to include (and maybe especially) their main character. It didn't originate in S10, but its a freaking crime that it continues into SV's final season. I think, right now, the writers are far more interested in writing Lois then Clark. I think they're more interested in writing Chloe then Oliver. Its obvious they like writing for Tess all season. And Martha was also written strong.

And its not an opinon that the CW as a network is geared towards females, as its something they loudly proclaim constantly. Is this writing network dictated? Maybe, I couldn't say. But do I think that a problem exists with the writing for this show. Oh, you bet!

I completely agree.

[Kevin24]

Well, the men still protect the women on the show and inspire them to be greater than they believed they could be. Remember that it is Clark that has inspired them to truly believe in what they are doing and he is the one who gave them the strength to push forward during the rough patches in life.

So, right now the strong women are using what they learned from Clark to help him find his way back to the light.

Also, women can help me too and vice versa.

[Christina :)]

He seems strong to me... He's respected too

[lexluthor408]

In short, how the women of Smallville are written should have nothing to do with how the men of Smallville are written and vice versa.

yes it should because there is only 42 minutes of story to tell and you can't glorify everyone. this is the story about clark kent, first and foremost.

[VilleFan]

I love my SV women strong (*cough* Tess *cough*)... so no complaints here

[ginevrakent]

yes it should because there is only 42 minutes of story to tell and you can't glorify everyone. this is the story about clark kent, first and foremost.

I completely and utterly disagree. If I had to watch a television show or entertain myself with a traditional monomyth in any form (television, film, novel) in which the main male character couldn't be glorified unless the women in his life were written to look weak in comparison, then I could neither enjoy such storytelling nor could I ever see such a male character as much of a hero or a man at all. All of the great Superman origin stories I've read, highlight Lois Lane's strength and heroism, including Superman: Secret Origin and Superman: Birthright. Both origin stories were about Clark Kent, first and foremost, yet they still managed to write a Lois Lane who was just as heroic and inspirational in her own right.

[umm]

Well, another Clark Kent once said this about his Lois Lane:

"When we were married, everyone asked me the same question. 'You're Superman. Why Lois Lane?' I knew she was the girl for me the moment I met her. Lois was brutally honest, curious as a cat, and you'd never get the last word in. She was the most human woman I'd ever met. But on the inside she was more super than I could ever be." - Infinite Crisis #5

It seems Superman loves strong women. Good for him. It takes a strong man to choose a strong woman; to not fear her strength as threatening his own.

Except this Clark Kent is by no means strong! He may have powers, but he stil comes of as weak, and it has nothing to do with how Chloe, Lana, Lois, Martha or any other female character in his vacinity is writen!

[ginevrakent]

Except this Clark Kent is by no means strong! He may have powers, but he stil comes of as weak, and it has nothing to do with how Chloe, Lana, Lois, Martha or any other female character in his vacinity is writen!

I disagree. The only episodes this season where I thought Clark looked weak in some way were Supergirl, Homecoming, Harvest, and Collateral. The latter episode, however, is the only one out of the others that I believe didn't feature a combination of strong and weak writing for Clark. In contrast, Clark has been strong in episodes like Lazarus, Shield, Isis, Ambush, Abandoned, Patriot, Luthor, and Icarus. I believe strength comes in many forms. Strength can be defeating the bad guy, saving someone, admitting you're wrong, saying goodbye, saying "I love you," telling a secret, humility, forgiveness, compassion, giving people second chances, intelligence, standing up for oneself, being a good friend, taking risks, working hard, and serving as a moral leader. Clark was all of these things in the episodes I mentioned above.

Doubt doesn't make someone inherently weak, which is what Clark was struggling with in Beacon. Clark didn't believe people would be willing to take risks to support him yet that didn't stop him from fighting or saving lives. When Lois asked Clark if he was just going to give up with minutes left in the game, Clark countered by saying he wasn't giving up because he was still going out there every day to serve the people as The Blur. He was giving them a reason to vote to repeal the VRA and he was the one whose example inspired all of the testimonials that swayed the vote in the heroes' favor. It takes true strength to be able to endure hatred and doubt, to keep going, and to keep fighting the good fight without expectation of receiving anything in return.

What I saw in Clark in Beacon was the strength of humility. This is a common theme in the Bible; the meek shall inherit the Earth and all that. I thought this episode really underscored the difference between the pride Clark exhibited in Lazarus ("You may not see me as a hero, but the rest of the world does!") and the humility Clark exhibits now. Proverbs 27:2 says, "Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; someone else, and not your own lips." By letting others speak for him, Clark's humility becomes strength. Another verse from the Bible, this time from 2 Corinthians 12:6-10 is more explicit:

Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

[umm]

I disagree. The only episodes this season where I thought Clark looked weak in some way were Supergirl, Homecoming, Harvest, and Collateral. The latter episode, however, is the only one out of the others that I believe didn't feature a combination of strong and weak writing for Clark. In contrast, Clark has been strong in episodes like Lazarus, Shield, Isis, Ambush, Abandoned, Patriot, Luthor, and Icarus. I believe strength comes in many forms. Strength can be defeating the bad guy, saving someone, admitting you're wrong, saying goodbye, saying "I love you," telling a secret, humility, forgiveness, compassion, giving people second chances, intelligence, standing up for oneself, being a good friend, taking risks, working hard, and serving as a moral leader. Clark was all of these things in the episodes I mentioned above.

Doubt doesn't make someone inherently weak, which is what Clark was struggling with in Beacon. Clark didn't believe people would be willing to take risks to support him yet that didn't stop him from fighting or saving lives. When Lois asked Clark if he was just going to give up with minutes left in the game, Clark countered by saying he wasn't giving up because he was still going out there every day to serve the people as The Blur. He was giving them a reason to vote to repeal the VRA and he was the one whose example inspired all of the testimonials that swayed the vote in the heroes' favor. It takes true strength to be able to endure hatred and doubt, to keep going, and to keep fighting the good fight without expectation of receiving anything in return.

What I saw in Clark in Beacon was the strength of humility. This is a common theme in the Bible; the meek shall inherit the Earth and all that. I thought this episode really underscored the difference between the pride Clark exhibited in Lazarus ("You may not see me as a hero, but the rest of the world does!") and the humility Clark exhibits now. Proverbs 27:2 says, "Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; someone else, and not your own lips." By letting others speak for him, Clark's humility becomes strength. Another verse from the Bible, this time from 2 Corinthians 12:6-10 is more explicit:

Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

MOD EDITDo you know why Chloe comes off as stronger than him, well besides her computer skills that is, the reason is no matter what bad thing happens in her life, she refuses to let that get her down and pulls herself up stronger then ever and comes up with an plan B.
And Lois is very much the same. Always comes with inspiration at an eleventh hour.
Those qualities Clark lacks, he broods, he gives up easily, and it doesn't matter if he has ten thousend different powers, as long as he doesn't believe in himself, he will be weaker than those around him.

[ginevrakent]

MOD EDIT Do you know why Chloe comes off as stronger than him, well besides her computer skills that is, the reason is no matter what bad thing happens in her life, she refuses to let that get her down and pulls herself up stronger then ever and comes up with an plan B.

Just because Chloe buried her weakness with something else doesn't make her strong. A strong person would have channeled her pain into something good. Despite trying to help Clark and the other heroes, Chloe channeled her pain and her weakness into doing the wrong thing. It takes real strength to not let pain, grief, or anger turn you into someone you don't recognize. Chloe even acknowledged this about herself in Hostage. It was a mistake for Chloe to put on a show of strength by hoarding information and doing things her way behind Clark's back. Her strength, in other words, was a false strength. A strong woman who lost her husband and more would have been more resilient, hopeful, and forgiving. Chloe was none of these things.

And Lois is very much the same! Always comes with inspiration at an eleventh hour.

Lois came up with some inspiration because she herself was inspired. Just as Clark was inspired by the video testimonials, Lois was inspired by Martha and Perry. Lois was feeling discouraged as well and it took Martha and Perry to push Lois in the right direction. Lois didn't generate her inspiration all by herself. She was also inspired.

Those qualities Clark lacks, he broods, he gives up easily, and it doesn't matter if he has ten thousend different powers, as long as he doesn't believe in himself, he will be weaker than those around him.

Clark didn't brood or give up easily in Beacon. He had his doubts about people showing up to support him at the polls, but those doubts didn't cripple him. He still kept fighting, kept saving people, and kept looking for answers in the hopes that he could make a difference. In the end, it was Clark's tireless efforts that turned the tide in favor of repealing the VRA. He inspired people to stand up for him.

[BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow]

Just my two cents....

I didn't have a problem with Clark in "Beacon" although I rolled my eyes when Clark kinda asked Martha's permission to be a hero at the end kitchen scene. I do however have a problem with Clark's character overall this season and I brought it up at the beginning of S10...about the strong women, weak men angle even though I didn't put it as nice as you did.

[umm]

well said.

I agree!