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With Supergirl, why bother with Superman?

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  • #31
    man, this is not a superman show. smallville is a reflection of vampire generation, batman generation -whatever you call it- where darkness is cool, goodness is cheesy. that's why we'll ONLY see superman in the very final moment to satisfy fans. it just doesn't fit now, a man with godly power always doing good.. so, rest of the heroes always have the guts, while clark won't.
    (sorry for my poor english)

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ginevrakent
      [/FONT][/INDENT]Kara set no standard or example to follow. She inspired no one and changed nothing. Norsemen were the first to discover America, but history remembers Christopher Columbus. When the inhabitants of the Smallville universe reflect on these debuts, as I reflect on them, what will be memorable and meaningful won't be what Kara did.

      Being first only matters if the action produces a significant consequence. Kara's debut has no substance, and therefore I see no point in ascribing any significance to it.
      I am sorry but I disagree. If I were an ordinary citizen of Metropolis, I would henceforth believe that Kara is the Blur. For weeks and months to come. After all, nobody has seen the Blur before, now she is the one coming out, including even a photoshoot. So at the end, when Clark decides to show his face to the public, the reaction will just be: sorry, who are you? Because everyone knows that the Blur is a blonde woman. Or do you expect there will be a public disclaimer in one of the next episodes? Of course not, because the usual writing strategy on this show is: just pretend it never happened and letīs hope nobody remembers it.

      The significance you talk about is something that lies in Season 11 etc. So whatever significance Superman has, must be shown in this final season. I am not willing to fanwank explanations for things that are quite obviously not shown on this show, but need to be known to make sense of it. This show must be judged from what we see on screen, not from what people already know about Superman and which they project into future episodes that we will never get to see.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by jpfort1957
        Screwed up stories like they have now, is why alot people didn't want Kara on this program in the first place!!!!
        I'm glad at least one Kryptonian DC hero on this show gets to shine without restrictions since Clark can't do it.

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        • #34
          And what's the problem with Kara going public first? What I saw was her making a super save and then taking a photoshoot.

          Clark may have worked in the shadows but he was established first in S8 as the Red-blue blur, and as the Blur in S9. And he has done alot more saves than Kara in those personas.

          Kara didn't even give an interview about where she came from and what is her agenda. All she did was give the citizens of Metropolis another figure of hope to believe in following the example Clark and Oliver have been doing for a few years (seasons) now. She got an alter ego, but Clark has had that too before her so...

          What's the problem?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by BoyScout-ManOfTomorrow
            And what's the problem with Kara going public first? What I saw was her making a super save and then taking a photoshoot.

            Clark may have worked in the shadows but he was established first in S8 as the Red-blue blur, and as the Blur in S9. And he has done alot more saves than Kara in those personas.

            What's the problem?
            The problem is that the people in Metropolis do not know who did all these saves. But now they must assume that the red-blue blur is obviously that blonde woman. What reason would they have to think otherwise? So the whole credit in the public eye goes to Kara, not Clark. And Clark certainly will not issue a press release explaining that he is the one doing the saves, while that blonde woman was just a one-time visitor...

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            • #36
              No doubt Kara will say she is not the Blur. By the way, the Blur wore black for a long time! There is another thing: she didnīt wear the shield. No house of El sign to be seen anywhere. The only one who uses the El shield as his signature is the Blur/Clark/Superman. Supergirl may wear the shield later, but not right now. So she can wear red and blue all she wants, but not the shield!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by TOMophilus
                I am sorry but I disagree. If I were an ordinary citizen of Metropolis, I would henceforth believe that Kara is the Blur. For weeks and months to come. After all, nobody has seen the Blur before, now she is the one coming out, including even a photoshoot. So at the end, when Clark decides to show his face to the public, the reaction will just be: sorry, who are you? Because everyone knows that the Blur is a blonde woman. Or do you expect there will be a public disclaimer in one of the next episodes? Of course not, because the usual writing strategy on this show is: just pretend it never happened and letīs hope nobody remembers it.
                If they thought she was the Blur they would have called her the Blur (not the Maiden of Might). Lois, the Blur's famous defender, did not imply in any way that Kara was the Blur. Moreover, if they thought she was the Blur, the guy at the end of the episode looking at the anti-Blur symbol would have mentioned the fact that now he knows the Blur is out there being an awesome flying hero. He didn't. Also, if anyone thought she was the Blur, Godfrey would have taken advantage of that. No one thought Kara was the Blur. The show did not present this as a fact. There doesn't need to be a disclaimer in any future episode because the episode Supergirl itself illustrates this truth.

                The significance you talk about is something that lies in Season 11 etc. So whatever significance Superman has, must be shown in this final season. I am not willing to fanwank explanations for things that are quite obviously not shown on this show, but need to be known to make sense of it. This show must be judged from what we see on screen, not from what people already know about Superman and which they project into future episodes that we will never get to see.
                Apparently you are willing to fanwank explanations because neither you nor I know how they will showcase Clark's debut at the end of the season/series. You're saying it must be shown, and I'm saying I suspect it will. Meanwhile, you're saying it most definitely will not. You're stating your speculation as fact, or fanwanking. I'm just suggesting a possible way that the show still has the potential to do justice to Clark's ultimate debut as Superman.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by ginevrakent
                  If they thought she was the Blur they would have called her the Blur (not the Maiden of Might). Lois, the Blur's famous defender, did not imply in any way that Kara was the Blur. Moreover, if they thought she was the Blur, the guy at the end of the episode looking at the anti-Blur symbol would have mentioned the fact that now he knows the Blur is out there being an awesome flying hero. He didn't. Also, if anyone thought she was the Blur, Godfrey would have taken advantage of that. No one thought Kara was the Blur. The show did not present this as a fact. There doesn't need to be a disclaimer in any future episode because the episode Supergirl itself illustrates this truth.
                  Well, but it was a logical blunder. Lois at least has kissed the Blur and knows that heīs a man, in fact her man. There is no reason from the story itself, except inconsistency, why Kara wouldnīt be identified with the Blur by all the others. Why would she appear in red and blue, and not in some other outfit? Or maybe itīs just tacit sexism in the story: that big Blur guy obviously canīt possibly be a blonde woman! No explanation needed. And why would the guy at the end have changed his mind, just because Kara saved a bunch of people? Hate propaganda usually sits deep.

                  Anyway, even if you were right, the problem would remain that the Blur now is just one more red and blue hero flying around. A lame copycat! As stated before, they only have superficial things to show in the finale (like flight and costume and people applauding in awe) because all the significance stuff lies beyond the finale. If you take all that away and give it to guest characters, there is nothing special left for Superman on SV.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ginevrakent

                    I'd rather the citizens of Metropolis find awe and inspiration in Superman because they will recognize him as the Blur who had stuck by them even when they had wavering faith in him, instead of finding temporary awe at a superficial display of power like Kara's.

                    Kara set no standard or example to follow. She inspired no one and changed nothing. Norsemen were the first to discover America, but history remembers Christopher Columbus. When the inhabitants of the Smallville universe reflect on these debuts, as I reflect on them, what will be memorable and meaningful won't be what Kara did.

                    Being first only matters if the action produces a significant consequence. Kara's debut has no substance, and therefore I see no point in ascribing any significance to it.
                    The bold, that's exactly what I was trying to say (I must type abysmally when I'm tired ). The rest--THAT'S exactly how I felt about Kara's debut. It was not only superficial, but she was doing it in an almost desperate, forced down the people's throats kiind of way. "Look at me, doing this flashy save! I've gotta get my image out there immediately so you don't become depressed by "The Darkness"! I'm here, it's ok, you can believe in me!" It was more like someone having their 15 minutes of fame than a true hero who would be their protector.

                    ----- Added 12 Minutes later -----

                    Originally posted by TOMophilus
                    Well, but it was a logical blunder. Lois at least has kissed the Blur and knows that heīs a man, in fact her man. There is no reason from the story itself, except inconsistency, why Kara wouldnīt be identified with the Blur by all the others.
                    B/C there are at least several people who've seen the real Blur enough for Maxwell Lord to tap into their memories to make up a composite. I never saw a busty blonde in that machine in Charade. He's stood in front of the citizens of Metropolis on numerous occasions post-save (Hostage and Lazarus to name a few), where it's quite obvious Kara and Clark's Blur are not the same--and that Kara is NOT the Blur.


                    Why would she appear in red and blue, and not in some other outfit?
                    Kara, like Clark, has always been of the red and blue persuasion. I see no issue with this.

                    Anyway, even if you were right, the problem would remain that the Blur now is just one more red and blue hero flying around.
                    I disagree with this simply b/c what Clark's done over the past several seasons is so much more than whatever Kara did in Supergirl. The symbol that was being crossed out was the Blur's. To me that means of ALL the superheroes, he is the one seen as the most prolific, the one. And "The Blur" isn't going to just be one more superhero, IMO. Not even on this show. From where I sat, Kara did not even scratch the surface of what Clark has accomplished so far, and what I imagine he'll accomplish later. The newspaper articles were what you'd expect--but none of them were calling her a "savior" or applauding her inspiration. Just more run of the mill, "Oooh! Another one!" hero type articles.

                    If anything, it's Kara who's just another hero flying around.
                    Last edited by hellokitty; 10-11-2010, 09:34 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by TOMophilus
                      Anyway, even if you were right, the problem would remain that the Blur now is just one more red and blue hero flying around. A lame copycat! As stated before, they only have superficial things to show in the finale (like flight and costume and people applauding in awe) because all the significance stuff lies beyond the finale. If you take all that away and give it to guest characters, there is nothing special left for Superman on SV.
                      First, I am right. Kara was not mistaken for the Blur. Second, the citizens of Metropolis know the Blur by his symbol. They knew him when he was the Red-Blue-Blur in S8, and they easily figured out he was the same hero in S9 despite wearing black. He became identified by his symbol--the shield of the House of El--and when Superman appears wearing that symbol on his red and blue outfit, they'll not only know he was the first red and blue superhero (the Red-Blue-Blur), but that he has been their stalwart protector all of this time--the protector they already applauded in awe and appreciation in episodes like Identity and Lazarus.

                      Furthermore, as we saw with Alec Abrams in Warrior and the two young sons in Bulletproof and Escape respectively, the Blur (or Superman) already looms large in the public imagination. In the Bible, Jesus says blessed are those who believe without seeing. The fact that Superman was able to acquire such a level of significance and faith from people without even showing off as Kara did, speaks to the superior power of his heroism. Whether it was erased or not, the sentiment of the coffee vendor in Infamous was sincere:
                      Your money's no good here. For 50 years, I've watched this city get eaten alive by crime. But you picked us up, Kent. You reminded everybody what it means to be good again.
                      All of this is the "significant stuff" they've already shown in relation to Clark's superhero alter ego. Godfrey, even after Kara's debut, had the Blur as his number one target because of the profound nature of his preexisting heroic acts and heroic identity. When the Blur is revealed to be Superman, all of that will transfer to him, adding gravitas to his debut which Kara lacked.

                      I don't know about you, but I haven't seen the finale. I don't know what they have time for or what they'll show. The "significant stuff" isn't guaranteed to lie beyond the finale; that's just your assumption. Until your assumption or my guess is proven right, there is the possibility for both outcomes. Therefore, one cannot answer the question, "Why bother with Superman?" until we have both Supergirl's and Superman's debuts to compare. To say that there is nothing special left for Superman on Smallville is a statement of certainty when no certainty exists.

                      ----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

                      Originally posted by hellokitty
                      B/C there are at least several people who've seen the real Blur enough for Maxwell Lord to tap into their memories to make up a composite. I never saw a busty blonde in that machine in Charade. He's stood in front of the citizens of Metropolis on numerous occasions post-save (Hostage and Lazarus to name a few), where it's quite obvious Kara and Clark's Blur are not the same--and that Kara is NOT the Blur.
                      Exactly.

                      Kara, like Clark, has always been of the red and blue persuasion. I see no issue with this.
                      Me neither.

                      If anything, it's Kara who's just another hero flying around.
                      Yep.
                      Last edited by ginevrakent; 10-11-2010, 09:41 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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                      • #41
                        @ginervakent -

                        First of all, kudos to your line of argument. You haven't won me over to your point of view, but, you've at least convinced me to temporarily cool off on my initial volcanic hatred of this episode... so, thanks to you, at least, for that.

                        Originally posted by ginevrakent
                        To me, the first public debut with flight and primary colors doesn't matter. It's the meaning behind the debut that is important, and that I feel can still be preserved. Everything else is superficial.
                        The most telling phrase in that paragraph: "can still be preserved."

                        Right there is an implicit acknowledgement that although some things can (possibly) be saved, it's clear that something has been lost.

                        Now, for you, those things aren't important. They're "superficial."

                        But, superficial or not, they've been lost, and lost for no good reason. All of your hopes for what Superman's eventual debut will mean, why those meanings are so important, and why values of trust and reliability should matter so much, even if someone agrees entirely with your priorities - those priorities could still be kept perfectly intact if the Supergirl episode had never been made.

                        As to the superficiality claim...

                        Most of us are aware of the complicated legal issues surrounding the ownership of the intellectual property of Superman (and many other comics characters).

                        As a hypothetical, imagine an alternate world where Smallville is an entirely original program, not based on any previous material. And that the most recent episode was a Season finale. And that after that season finale, there was a dispute among the writers of the show. Some are arguing that the Clark character's gotten stale and this new idea - this "Maiden of Might" - that's the real ticket to prolonged success. A fight ensues. The creative team splits up, and decides to go their separate ways. Team B gets the Clark Kent character. Team A gets the Maiden of Might, and with it, own a character:

                        -who flies
                        -in a bright costume
                        --consisting of a blue shirt, red boots, and a proto- red cape
                        -saving the people of Metropolis in a public, uncontroversial persona

                        Team B gets to evolve Clark as much as they want. Except for those attributes, which were the essential distinct elements for the Maiden of Might.

                        Now, do you think Team B still has the ability to recreate what most people on this Earth would recognize as "Superman"? Or does Team A have a much closer shot at it?

                        I realize this is an incredibly strained hypothetical. But, I hope it demonstrates the rather essential nature of those attributes which are now, in SV's universe, initially attributable to Maiden of Might. To call them superficial may be a correct usage of the term, but, I think the technical point loses the bigger picture. These are indeed individual surface-level attributes. But, when mixed together, are a magic alchemy that are essential to the character of Superman.

                        Originally posted by ginevrakent
                        Being first only matters if the action produces a significant consequence. Kara's debut has no substance, and therefore I see no point in ascribing any significance to it.
                        Kara's debut certainly had no substance in this episode. But isn't that just beyond silly? It was just ridiculous.

                        Metropolis sees a flying wonder drop out of the sky, save an unknown dozen or so lives, and how do they react? Perhaps my home theater's sound mix was off, but I think I might've heard some snoring. Followed by the sound of a camera shutter turning this being who performed what in their world could only be described as a miracle into an insulting Maxim-magazine object.

                        I'll concede that there's a chance the writers are indeed playing a long game of chess here, and that this particular maneuver can pay some sort of dividend in the future. At first, I couldn't possibly imagine it, but you've at least convinced me there's still a chance of that.

                        But, for this one episode, they've taken an event, the likes of which have been anticipated for nine plus years, the likes of which helped create the iconic screen legend of Christopher Reeve, and turned it into a moment of, using your words:

                        -no substance
                        -no point in ascribing any significance to it.


                        I still thoroughly disagree w/ just about everything in this episode. But, @ginervakent has at least given me a glimmer of hope. A faint glimmer, but a glimmer nonetheless. Thanks again.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by luthor2010
                          I still thoroughly disagree w/ just about everything in this episode. But, @ginervakent has at least given me a glimmer of hope. A faint glimmer, but a glimmer nonetheless. Thanks again.
                          Glad to be of help.

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                          • #43
                            No, sorry, not one glimmer of hope at all. I bet the finale will be the most paradigmatic anti-climax ever. It will just be sugar-coated by some extra FX and some super-save to make people happy and to divert attention from the colossal failure that is SV concerning the story of pre-Superman Clark.

                            Remind me to repent if I am wrong.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by luthor2010
                              I realize this is an incredibly strained hypothetical. But, I hope it demonstrates the rather essential nature of those attributes which are now, in SV's universe, initially attributable to Maiden of Might. To call them superficial may be a correct usage of the term, but, I think the technical point loses the bigger picture. These are indeed individual surface-level attributes. But, when mixed together, are a magic alchemy that are essential to the character of Superman.
                              Actually, I think that you have this back-to-front. It is the character of Superman that performs the "magic alchemy" that turns the base metal of those "individual surface-level attributes" into superhero gold. After all, if these "surface-elements" helped create the iconic screen legend of Christopher Reeve, they did nothing for poor Helen Slater (even allowing for the general lousyness of that movie) - and they don't do a heck of a lot for Laura Vandervoort. I happened to watch Superman the other night, and that "first night" sequence - from the helicopter rescue to plucking a child's cat from a tree - and what makes Superman really special in those scenes isn't the powers or the costume, it's that he is what he tells Lois he is: "A friend." Maybe not to criminals I suppose, but to most of the people he meets he is warm, caring, unfailingly polite. Someone who impresses people with his manner and attitude as much as by his actions. That is what provides the real alchemy.

                              Of course, in the "Donnerverse" (and the live-action universe, in general), Superman is the world's greatest hero because he is the only superhero - no Batman, Green Lantern, JLA, JSA, etc. to reduce him to simply being one amongst many. In the comics, of course, we have the "DC Universe" with all the heroes existing (and crossing over) within a common continuity (gave or take a few parallel universes and the occasional "Crisis"). I much prefer the idea of superheroes having their own seperate continuities with writers free to tailor stories to each particular hero without worrying about (a) other books, and (b) whether other heroes are diminishing the main hero by their presence. Others do not, and Smallville has wound-up going down the DCU route. However, this has strange consequences for origin stories which assume that there have been no prior heroes. Kara might have partially mimicked Superman's first public appearance, but she was doing so in a world that has already seen what superpowered heroes can do. She might be a miracle by human standards, but as far as the citizens of Metropolis know, apart from showing her face, she isn't doing anything that The Blur (or others) could not do. Plus she acts on the basis of her Kryptonian upbringing - given a mission to hunt "The Darkness", she is only interested in publicity to lure out her quarry, not becoming everybody's friend and hero.

                              It may seem an anathema to those who see Superman's important in terms of "firsts" or "trailblazing" or powers that are unique to him, but once you go down the "world full of superheroes route", the "firsts" gradually lose their impact as more-and-more others match those achievments, and the powers simply earn him a place on a team. What becomes truly important isn't that he was a trailblazer, but that he becomes and remains the World's Greatest Hero. The one that people place their faith and trust in above all others, that the other heroes look up to, not simply because of his powers, but because he is their friend - someone they never doubt because they know he won't fail them. Something that takes a good small-town upbriging as much as alien ancestry; a function of character and personality more than clothing and abilities.
                              Last edited by newbaggy; 10-11-2010, 04:39 PM.

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                              • #45
                                WORD on that whole post newbaggy! I completely agree with you and it's why I don't have any real "hate" toward what they did in Supergirl.

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