As of right now WHY "THE END" still works and WHY it's doesn't.

[waynedeath1047]

Okay so we're two weeks in and I think we have a pretty good grasp on what could and couldn't happen with everyone's new surroundings.

1. Castiel still has some power. Which is very interesting because I have been thinking about Jimmy and why then if he is still alive he couldn't just eject Cas from the vessel. Cas must still either have influence over him or is keeping himself together. Like Anna Angel radio is still playing and although he doesn't have the amnesia it might be a good thing because it seems being human isn't more like being human adjacent. Just how powerful is Cas? Does he have any other tricks that maybe Anna just didn't remember? And if so the reason he is still powerful is??

2. "All the other angels left." Okay so they are still on Earth as of right now but if the angels just give up then what would happen to them? We call them "walking nukes" and it makes we wonder if they just give up with searching for meaning and a way back and they go to what I am thinking may be why they are bringing OZ into the show.

3. So it wasn't Crotoan or Angel AREA quarantine, the boys were just going into a chemical disaster. So where does that leave Crotoan? It sounds to me like our new "Queen" may be a Lucifer loyalist and she also may be just another opportunist demon. But if she is the former as of right now and she has no idea what has happened between 50's and 13-14 than what's going to stop her from eventually bringing back the end times?

4. The cage still has to be opened. But noone is pointing that direction but me and if this is going to work than we need to get past Marv on the two episodes he is going to be in as of right now and onto the contributions of the Angel tablet. Are the levers a fullfilment of the prophecies handed down through god or are they REALLY HUMAN get out of Demon/Angel jail free cards?

5. If the cage is opened where does that leave Michael? What team will he be playing for now? What if what we saw in "The End" wasn't Lucifer at all? What if Michael actually won in the cage and now he is going "Haha?" If I were Michael right now I would be pretty damn pissed about doing everything I knew to be right and then got put in time out. The fact that he had the omniprescence that other angels don't to know that he would for sure see him in 2014 and not in 12 is kind of alarming thinking back on it.

That's all I have got for right now. Anyone else?

[SuperSheltie]

Okay so we're two weeks in and I think we have a pretty good grasp on what could and couldn't happen with everyone's new surroundings.

1. Castiel still has some power. Which is very interesting because I have been thinking about Jimmy and why then if he is still alive he couldn't just eject Cas from the vessel. Cas must still either have influence over him or is keeping himself together. Like Anna Angel radio is still playing and although he doesn't have the amnesia it might be a good thing because it seems being human isn't more like being human adjacent. Just how powerful is Cas? Does he have any other tricks that maybe Anna just didn't remember? And if so the reason he is still powerful is??

On this one, I am almost 100% sure that Jimmy is truly dead. If Cas were to leave his vessel (which he can't because he is human), then both Cas and the vessel would die. Jimmy sacrificed his life so that Claire would not have to suffer like he did being "strapped to a comet." End of Jimmy. You also got a hint of the dead vessel thing in the bus. Sam and Dean pretty much said that the three vessels on the bus had died a long time ago and had a lot of wounds. They certainly didn't look like some recently vacated demon vessels where the human soul inside reemerges. Abbadon mentioned something about "finding" them new better vessels. By the say, Grannie Demon was awesome...LOL. By the looks of the trailer for next week's episode, I have to watch it more closely a third time, it kinda looks like Cas did have a glow about him, like maybe he had more power than just angel radio. But that could have been the glow effect from the angel it looked like he was killing. Maybe the more angels Cas kills, the more power he gets????

Another cup of coffee and I might comment on the other points....as always, you do raise some interesting theories.

[waynedeath1047]

On this one, I am almost 100% sure that Jimmy is truly dead..

But Cas tells him he has to understand that he will never die if he goes back into Jimmy's body instead of taking Claire's. So that's why I brought that one up. But I see what you mean now in regards to the death of vessels. Perhaps he did die and Cas was wrong. But on another hand those bodies weren't angel vessels only demons. So it makes me wonder what their healing factor really was considering what Abaddon had to do to fix her own.

[SuperSheltie]

Ah, yes, I remember him telling Jimmy that. But, Jimmy's body was dying, so if Cas ever was ejected or left his vessel, the vessel of Jimmy would die because of his fatal wound. I think it would be a stretch to do anything more than make a passing mention of Jimmy, but they don't have to do it for me to know that Jimmy is dead IMO. BUT that being said, with Zeke inside Sam "healing" him....that might make the Jimmy topic come up for discussion because if, like Jimmy, Sam was dying (to the point of getting a visit from Death no less) and that now Sam is "strapped to a comet" in Zeke, can Zeke even leave Sam without Sam truly dying?

Cas inside Jimmy was different than Zeke inside Sam. Jimmy disappeared completely, really seemed to have no ability to do or say anything to eject Cas from him (other than the random meat-eating that Cas did when Famine was in town, hardly a mention of Jimmy at all after "Rapture")....Zeke seems to be able to come forward at will and send Sam back and forth from consciousness. It took an angel armada to rip Castiel out of Jimmy. This begs the theory that Zeke is actually 100% "on top" (as Abbadon said to Dean) and is pretending to be Sam, as he does have all his memories. Zeke seems a more sympathetic angel than Castiel did at first (Cas was a bit of a dick), but this could be that he is a very clever angel. What was very telling, IMO, was the last comment Sam made about being finally happy. THIS seems a bit OOC for Sam, especially after all they just went through, and Sam did actually want to die. Dean didn't look all that convinced in that statement either. Is SAM happy, or is ZEKE happy? This might also be why Dean pushes Cas away later in the season. Zeke does not want to leave Sam....period, and Cas knows this.

[Anno_Domini]

Okay so we're two weeks in and I think we have a pretty good grasp on what could and couldn't happen with everyone's new surroundings.

1. Castiel still has some power. Which is very interesting because I have been thinking about Jimmy and why then if he is still alive he couldn't just eject Cas from the vessel. Cas must still either have influence over him or is keeping himself together. Like Anna Angel radio is still playing and although he doesn't have the amnesia it might be a good thing because it seems being human isn't more like being human adjacent. Just how powerful is Cas? Does he have any other tricks that maybe Anna just didn't remember? And if so the reason he is still powerful is??

I always thought the 2014AU!Cas still had some power as well. He knew the present day Dean was from the present day and knew it was because of Zachariah. That had to symbolize that Castiel still had some mojo in him even if the angels left and barred up Heaven.

Also, we did see Anna use some telekinesis powers as well before she found her grace...I'm sure Cas may still have some of that still residing in him as well.

2. "All the other angels left." Okay so they are still on Earth as of right now but if the angels just give up then what would happen to them? We call them "walking nukes" and it makes we wonder if they just give up with searching for meaning and a way back and they go to what I am thinking may be why they are bringing OZ into the show.

This could still happen. I mean, what if Cas stays as this "semi-angel" that seems to still have some telekinesis such as Anna showed in season four, but Dean and Sam ends up sending the angels back to Heaven, but at a cost with finally locking the gates of Heaven? As we know, there's always a price when it comes to spells, deals, and now trials...this could be the cost of sending the angels back to Heaven.

3. So it wasn't Crotoan or Angel AREA quarantine, the boys were just going into a chemical disaster. So where does that leave Crotoan? It sounds to me like our new "Queen" may be a Lucifer loyalist and she also may be just another opportunist demon. But if she is the former as of right now and she has no idea what has happened between 50's and 13-14 than what's going to stop her from eventually bringing back the end times?

Even as a Lucifer Loyalist, since she is a Knight of Hell, I don't think it means the Croatoan virus. It sucks that "Devil May Cry" didn't really build up on an angel area quarantine as I was really hoping on that one, but Croatoan should have played its course. The Pestilence Horseman is out of the picture and I don't think we need to be seeing any random demons testing the plague out since the only reason it was tested was to see if Sam was immune back in season two.

4. The cage still has to be opened. But noone is pointing that direction but me and if this is going to work than we need to get past Marv on the two episodes he is going to be in as of right now and onto the contributions of the Angel tablet. Are the levers a fullfilment of the prophecies handed down through god or are they REALLY HUMAN get out of Demon/Angel jail free cards?

Oh, after last night's episode, I agree that is has to open. There is literally no other meaning for why the story of Lucifer's rise was even brought up as it would seem to just be forced into the episode. Slowly making references to Lucifer is really pointing to the obvious ending of the show which is to bring back Lucifer. How does it happen? Who knows...perhaps Metatron decides to open it up to torture his fellow archangels. I mean, Carver did say Metatron becomes bored. He could turn his attention to torturing his last remaining brothers that are still alive(referring to archangels in being his brothers). When that does happen...I feel Metatron will quickly understand the power that both Lucifer and Michael possess.

5. If the cage is opened where does that leave Michael? What team will he be playing for now? What if what we saw in "The End" wasn't Lucifer at all? What if Michael actually won in the cage and now he is going "Haha?" If I were Michael right now I would be pretty damn pissed about doing everything I knew to be right and then got put in time out. The fact that he had the omniprescence that other angels don't to know that he would for sure see him in 2014 and not in 12 is kind of alarming thinking back on it.

That's all I have got for right now. Anyone else?

I always had the idea that if the cage ever opened, the body of Adam would have deteriorated and Michael would be keeping Adam's soul and will try to free him to Heaven once he's out, but that he will go after Dean as well. A Lucifer/Michael team up would be extraordinary to see, but there will be that part of Michael that still is good who's protecting Adam's soul...something that Sam and Dean never cared about, imo. That part of good could be used in the final moments where Michael could end up fighting Lucifer in the end.

And speaking of the two...I'd rather see them use other vessels as well. We've been past this Michael = Dean, Lucifer = Sam stuff....why not have Michael use Henry Winchester and Lucifer uses someone else? What if Lucifer uses Samuel Campbell even? That would be a nice little spin on things.

And also, we have Bobby who is dead, so that takes care of the fact that Bobby is dead in the "The End".

[phoenix25]

On this one, I am almost 100% sure that Jimmy is truly dead.

Misha has confirmed this and Robbie Thompson also confirmed that Jimmy is gone on his twitter Q&A yesterday.

[waynedeath1047]

I always thought the 2014AU!Cas still had some power as well. He knew the present day Dean was from the present day and knew it was because of Zachariah. That had to symbolize that Castiel still had some mojo in him even if the angels left and barred up Heaven.

I never said he didn't have any power. Just that it goes beyond whatever we may have actually seen.

Oh, after last night's episode, I agree that is has to open. There is literally no other meaning for why the story of Lucifer's rise was even brought up as it would seem to just be forced into the episode. Slowly making references to Lucifer is really pointing to the obvious ending of the show which is to bring back Lucifer. How does it happen? Who knows...perhaps Metatron decides to open it up to torture his fellow archangels. I mean, Carver did say Metatron becomes bored. He could turn his attention to torturing his last remaining brothers that are still alive(referring to archangels in being his brothers). When that does happen...I feel Metatron will quickly understand the power that both Lucifer and Michael possess.



I always had the idea that if the cage ever opened, the body of Adam would have deteriorated and Michael would be keeping Adam's soul and will try to free him to Heaven once he's out, but that he will go after Dean as well. A Lucifer/Michael team up would be extraordinary to see, but there will be that part of Michael that still is good who's protecting Adam's soul...something that Sam and Dean never cared about, imo. That part of good could be used in the final moments where Michael could end up fighting Lucifer in the end.

And speaking of the two...I'd rather see them use other vessels as well. We've been past this Michael = Dean, Lucifer = Sam stuff....why not have Michael use Henry Winchester and Lucifer uses someone else? What if Lucifer uses Samuel Campbell even? That would be a nice little spin on things.

And also, we have Bobby who is dead, so that takes care of the fact that Bobby is dead in the "The End".

I never thought of sending the angels back to heaven was the answer to also locking the doors but I would be willing to bet that you're right. The boys can't close hell just yet but they also want to probably get the Angels back to the Outfield as soon as possible. Just how Marv fits in will probably be just a simple steriotypical Just Desserts out-manuevering scenario.

However it does make me wonder what Zeke will turn into if he finds out that Sam and Dean try to expel him back to heaven anyways after generously offering his help. It would be looked as an kind of unlike them IMO.

[Anno_Domini]

I never said he didn't have any power. Just that it goes beyond whatever we may have actually seen.

And I never said I was saying you thought otherwise. I said "as well"; I was agreeing.

I never thought of sending the angels back to heaven was the answer to also locking the doors but I would be willing to bet that you're right. The boys can't close hell just yet but they also want to probably get the Angels back to the Outfield as soon as possible. Just how Marv fits in will probably be just a simple steriotypical Just Desserts out-manuevering scenario.

However it does make me wonder what Zeke will turn into if he finds out that Sam and Dean try to expel him back to heaven anyways after generously offering his help. It would be looked as an kind of unlike them IMO.

I think it may be a case of which would be better for Earth more than angels with the situation. Even locking the gates to Heaven would be a small price to pay if it means finding a way to send the angels back up there. And I would HOPE that Ezekiel would want to go back to Heaven and not end up becoming an antagonist for the brothers, or perhaps Ezekiel ends up dying while still being an ally, which would be refreshing.

[blue sunflower]

Okay so we're two weeks in and I think we have a pretty good grasp on what could and couldn't happen with everyone's new surroundings.

1. Castiel still has some power. Which is very interesting because I have been thinking about Jimmy and why then if he is still alive he couldn't just eject Cas from the vessel.

My theory is Jimmy was mortally wounded in Rapture. He's supposed to be in Heaven right now. which is the difference between Sam and Dean ~ whose time obviously hasn't come yet, hence why they keep coming back.

I wouldn't be surprised if Castiel left Jimmy's body, Jimmy's body would die immediately. (As opposed to before, when Jimmy wasn't damaged at all.) The fact that Jimmy's soul does seem to be gone now is IMO evidence it was very weak prior to Metatron removing Castiel's grace. I think Castiel's been keeping Jimmy alive, and he can't do it anymore.