Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Eleven-Fifty-Nine?"

[smllvllfn]

The whole Stars Wars comparison went right over my head because I've never seen any of them. I'm just saying I'd guess they knew that Harrison Wells from season 1 was actually Eobard Thawne and that's how they could truthfully say that Harrison Wells wasn't the RF.

As far as Laurel is concerned, would I be surprised if she turns up alive at some point, no. It sounds like for the rest of the season though she'll be in flash backs or Earth 2's Laurel.

[Haggard01]

Ok so Laurel Lance is dead. I'll admit despite everything we have discussed on here that I was still emotionally shocked Laurel did in fact die. Kaite Cassidy gave her best performance in this episode and the quality level was really well I'm stunned. Because this, even at the end felt like an episode of Arrow from the early seasons and I guess was in a way a swan song to Laurel Lance.

I can either go and rant about how stupid this whole thing is or I can list what I like about the episode. Also JDBentz in his first post listed everything utterly wrong with what happened so. Now I'm going to pick what I liked because I'm not going to give MG or WM, the stupid Olicty shippers the good parts.

First Oliver Queen well welcome back old friend since I haven't seen you since the end of season 2 and maybe bits in 3. This was like watching The Hood again on how he interrogated Andy and trusted his instincts about that over Diggle's blindness to his family.

Really everybody from Oliver, Diggle, Thea, Laurel and Quentin gave the best performances in this episode.

The action levels where top notch to and really gave me the feeling of the older seasons.

Also there was no Felicty Smoak until the end and you really got to see how that improved the show overall.

The Flashbacks really felt like they had a purpose in this episode and we really got somewhere.

Oliver embraced being a killer with sealing Baron Reiter in those tunnels for now. I'll say for sure on whether or not Oliver is closer to Hood status at season's end.

Also I have the feeling season 5 is going to be in Russia if that promise made to Tiania is any indication.

Which in both in the present day and past the picture of Laurel showed up again. Well, that was surprising to see happen. Oliver in the flashbacks saying he gave up looking at the picture is something I wondered and goes back to what Yao Fei said in 1x04.

Now moving into the present with that hospital scene. The only thing that ruined it was the stupid Olicty shipping they made Laurel do but other that it was a good finale performance from Kaite for her death scene.

So on how I'm going to rate this episode? I really can't because either I give it's due for being a stand out episode or I give it -1/10 for killing Laurel to please the Olicty fanbase.

[Carmine-Infantino]

The whole Stars Wars comparison went right over my head because I've never seen any of them. I'm just saying I'd guess they knew that Harrison Wells from season 1 was actually Eobard Thawne and that's how they could truthfully say that Harrison Wells wasn't the RF.

As far as Laurel is concerned, would I be surprised if she turns up alive at some point, no. It sounds like for the rest of the season though she'll be in flash backs or Earth 2's Laurel.

I agree. Laurel is dead but not gone. K.C. has already filmed flashback scenes for the rest of the season. I'm confident season 5 will also feature Laurel as a reoccurring guest star in flashbacks. I also think the mid season finale will introduce the E2 Laurel to Arrow.

[costas22]

That's the problem with this show. They've "cheated death" so many times, that a character dies for good, the producers repeatedly say so, and no one will believe them. For the record, I think she's dead for good. And as funny as it sounds, the reason is that Katie Cassidy changed her hair color. Looks to me like she's moving on after her appearance on the Flash.

Anyway, according to the early ratings, this episode had 2.24 million viewers. Ouch. 6 months of hype and they get this.

[Shelby Kent]

That's the problem with this show. They've "cheated death" so many times, that a character dies for good, the producers repeatedly say so, and no one will believe them. For the record, I think she's dead for good. And as funny as it sounds, the reason is that Katie Cassidy changed her hair color. Looks to me like she's moving on.

Anyway, according to the early ratings, this episode had 2.24 million viewers. Ouch. 6 months of hype and they get this.

Wow. Thought the ratings would have been higher.

Been interesting reading about the debate re: Laurel dead or not. I tend to lean toward: yes -- but also agree I don't find these EPs to be very credible.

It wouldn't surprise me if in the back of their minds they consider Sara as an option for bringing a BC back. I'm a bit behind on LoT at the moment, but if Sara stays on LoT next year and then it is true, as I earlier "heard" (but can't recall source or how reliable, so... grain of salt there), that they only plan 2 seasons of LoT, then theoretically Sara would be free from LoT by time of S6 Arrow. If the state of Arrow by that time is such that they are looking around for ways to boost popularity/shore up ratings, then they might think bringing Sara over as BC could help, as my impression was that Sara was pretty "popular" character while on Arrow (though I personally was not a fan...) If in hindsight they felt that getting rid of BC, as they now seem to have done, caused problems, then they may see bringing one back as a way to try to appease viewers.... They could explain Sara becoming BC as taking up mantle of BC in honor of her sister, now that her time traveling has ended and she's back in Star City. Then depending on the state of, and goals for, Olicity at that time, they might (or might not...) even try to resurrect some romance between Oliver and Sara. As I said, I'm behind on watching LoT right now , but just in the eps I've seen, I've seen substantial character growth from Sara in terms of being more than just a cold-blooded assassin -- so they could always try to push the Oliver and Sara romance as being more complementary in a good way now than just 2 brutal killers hanging out together.

I think as of now Olicity is endgame, but nothing is ever for sure, and they may like to keep other options around in the back of their minds. I do think a lot of this would hinge of window-of-opportunity to secure Caity in the role, though. If events transpired so that she took on other commitments/work, then I think this option would be lost to them.

[Backward Galaxy]

The whole Stars Wars comparison went right over my head because I've never seen any of them. I'm just saying I'd guess they knew that Harrison Wells from season 1 was actually Eobard Thawne and that's how they could truthfully say that Harrison Wells wasn't the RF.

In A New Hope, Obi-Wan tells Luke that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered his father, Anakin Skywalker. But Anakin Skywalker IS Darth Vader. When Luke confronts Obi-Wan's Force ghost about it in Return of the Jedi, Obi-Wan justifies his "lie" by saying that Anakin was a good person who was seduced by the dark side, and when that happened, he ceased to be Anakin. The famous justification given by Obi-Wan is that what he said was true, "from a certain point of view".

In this case, even if Laurel is still alive, there are ways Guggy can say that he didn't lie when he said she had died. Maybe she did technically die for a few minutes, before being brought back to life. Maybe he's referring to the declaration by the doctors, which indicates that she is legally dead. Maybe he's referring to how the rest of the team sees her as being gone. Maybe it's a veiled shot at Katie Cassidy that no one understands except him.

And it's the same thing with how they told us Harrison Wells was a completely original character and not the RF. Except that he was RF. They can say they weren't lying by relying on the technicality that Harrison Wells was a real character whose identity had been stolen by RF, but that's just nonsense, because we all know why they said what they said. They said it THAT way so as to throw people off. So whether we want to call it a lie or not, the intent is exactly the same; to consciously and intentionally mislead anyone aware of those comments.

I believe the same thing is happening again.

[Quark]

The episode was good-ish even if some of it didn't make sense. Katie Cassidy was great and Paul Blackthorne's scene at the end of the episode was superb when he realised what happened to Laurel.

Not sure how Malcolm has suddenly become such a good fighter with one hand already. Same goes for the diving instructor who seemed a pretty good shot in the flashbacks.

Why on earth did the Team put the totem back together? That made zero logical sense. Course it was to get Damien Darkh back to full power no doubt in terms of storyline purpose, but the Team didn't even talk about why they did it.

Also, how on earth did Malcolm carry the totem back out with one hand as it is pretty bulky? Unless he had that bag with him, which he couldn't have.

Loved the fight sequences with Thea and Laurel working together.

I guess we will see if Laurel's death will be worth it for the rest of the season, but I doubt it.

[Russkafin]

In the end, it's a deliberate and conscious attempt to mislead using language that enables them to essentially say anything they want and feel as if they've gotten away with something. But when you're the girlfriend whose been cheated on time and again, you learn to stop listening. That's us. We're the girlfriend to whom they've lied before, over and over again. And I don't believe them anymore.

To be fair, it has to be difficult to keep things secret and plan out long term twists and turns in this day and age. Not only do spoilers leak on the internet before episodes air (or, after they've aired but before everyone has had a chance to watch them), but we are now able to reach out to the writers and producers and ask things like "Is this character really dead?" and "Is this person really so-and-so?"

They have to either lie (which makes the fans mad), tell the truth (which spoils the plot), or be like "Welll.... we can't say if she's REALLY dead or not.... just keep watching..." (which, really, still kind of spoils it too...! )

I'm not saying it isn't frustrating, just pointing out that the very social media that makes it easier for the fans and creators to communicate, makes it harder to keep long-term twists a secret without having to lie.

[Kenko1]

I hated anyone but Sara being Canary...now I hate this death just as much...I liked Olicity until it became the focal point of the show at times...now I wish it would go away. One of the things that is makes the Arrow universe great is that they try to keep some of the stories from the comics. I always thought that by the end of the series, Oliver and Laurel would get back together and that Olicity was temporary. Now, debating on watching past this season...

[costas22]

It wouldn't surprise me if in the back of their minds they consider Sara as an option for bringing a BC back. I'm a bit behind on LoT at the moment, but if Sara stays on LoT next year and then it is true, as I earlier "heard" (but can't recall source or how reliable, so... grain of salt there), that they only plan 2 seasons of LoT, then theoretically Sara would be free from LoT by time of S6 Arrow. If the state of Arrow by that time is such that they are looking around for ways to boost popularity/shore up ratings, then they might think bringing Sara over as BC could help, as my impression was that Sara was pretty "popular" character while on Arrow (though I personally was not a fan...) If in hindsight they felt that getting rid of BC, as they now seem to have done, caused problems, then they may see bringing one back as a way to try to appease viewers.... They could explain Sara becoming BC as taking up mantle of BC in honor of her sister, now that her time traveling has ended and she's back in Star City. Then depending on the state of, and goals for, Olicity at that time, they might (or might not...) even try to resurrect some romance between Oliver and Sara. As I said, I'm behind on watching LoT right now , but just in the eps I've seen, I've seen substantial character growth from Sara in terms of being more than just a cold-blooded assassin -- so they could always try to push the Oliver and Sara romance as being more complementary in a good way now than just 2 brutal killers hanging out together.

I think as of now Olicity is endgame, but nothing is ever for sure, and they may like to keep other options around in the back of their minds. I do think a lot of this would hinge of window-of-opportunity to secure Caity in the role, though. If events transpired so that she took on other commitments/work, then I think this option would be lost to them.

I remember hearing recently that the cast for season 2 of Legends could undergo some changes. So for all we know, Berlanti and Guggenheim might have Caity Lotz transfered over to Arrow as soon as next season. If they want to get her involved. But if that happens, I'm almost certain that she won't pick up where Laurel left. She will probably continue being the White Canary. Said this somewhere else recently, but imo the fact that Laurel's grave has "Black Canary" written on it is very telling. It basically symbolizes that the hero alias dies with Laurel.

Anyway, going back to the ratings, I have a feeling some things might change if the remaining season 4 episodes provide ratings as poor as Eleven-FiftyNine's. Yes, the show did get a 5th season, but it's 4th season has lost viewers. Not just now, but in its entirery. Maybe they will figure that Olicity is more trouble than it's worth (if we are lucky) or maybe they will decide to try and bring back Katie Cassidy.

[Shelby Kent]

I remember hearing recently that the cast for season 2 of Legends could undergo some changes. So for all we know, Berlanti and Guggenheim might have Caity Lotz transfered over to Arrow as soon as next season. If they want to get her involved. But if that happens, I'm almost certain that she won't pick up where Laurel left. She will probably continue being the White Canary. Said this somewhere else recently, but imo the fact that Laurel's grave has "Black Canary" written on it is very telling. It basically symbolizes that the hero alias dies with Laurel.

Oh, yeah, forgot about that. Yeah, agree, that would seem to close off the option of another BC.

Anyway, going back to the ratings, I have a feeling some things might change if the remaining season 4 episodes provide ratings as poor as Eleven-FiftyNine's. Yes, the show did get a 5th season, but it's 4th season has lost viewers. Not just now, but in its entirery. Maybe they will figure that Olicity is more trouble than it's worth (if we are lucky) or maybe they will decide to try and bring back Katie Cassidy.

It's possible that if they think Olicity is causing problems, they will choose to tone it down, let it exist just as a matter of fact and drama-free -- no more "will they/won't they?" And I think a lot of viewers would be okay with that: get rid the Olicity angst-drama and put the energy back into crime-fighting aspects etc. Question is: are they capable of writing women in romantic relationships without ruining them? I'm skeptical. Lyla and Dig are doing okay only b/c they almost never feature their relationship. As long as they try to feature Olicity (rather than treat as a background "fact") I think they'll keep tripping over themselves. Pretty sure Guggenheim has a tin-ear regarding how to characterize women in romantic relationships in such a way that they don't drive a lot of viewers crazy with irritation. But just IMO of course... maybe others LOVE the angst, whining, belittling, snarking and wussiness that seems to = great romance CW-style

[President_Luthor]

I'm still processing the shock of it all, with the comics fan in me struggling to accept it in the way the TV viewer in me is more willing to acknowledge that they are going to tell a story and have it play out regardless of trying to mesh with DC canon.

I think it will be a much clearer picture by the season finale just how much of an impact Laurel/BC's death will have on the team and, most important, on Ollie's personal journey in the long-term. The only way any BC should die on a GA show should be in some form of death-and-glory scenario, either in sacrificing oneself to save Ollie or a team member or in the existential sense aka her death propels Ollie forward on his journey and forges him into a better hero. I'm thinking they are trying to go for the latter, and the execution of this theme from now until the finale and quite likely into S5 will determine if the series achieves the "pay off" of killing a main roster character.

I didn't get Laurel suddenly declaring the soulmate stuff re: Ollie, considering she has long been a much better character when she was as far away from Ollie's heart as possible. Whether it was a late-inning nod to GA and BC's comics relationship or their way of acknowledging that Laurel and Ollie are friends with history and some deep connection (not necessarily on a romantic level), I think it could have been achieved without giving the impression she was pining away for him in silence -- unknown to anyone(!) -- for years. Makes little sense and I'm headcanoning that the connection they have was more in the platonic/spiritual sense ... and nothing to do with wanting to be Ollie's love interest.

I'm of the opinion that if they did indeed kill BC, this version of her is dead. To properly honour whatever impact, short-term and esp. long-term, her death will have on the team and Ollie going forward, it would have to be real, permanent and irreversible. Since they chose to kill someone of BC's status on a show about GA, anything less would be unacceptable. The death has to mean something, and something profound to everyone esp. Ollie. If they got the notion that it could be faked, reversed or reset by magic or time travel, it would undercut this impact or cheapen it.

I do hear the "fridging" complaints -- she was killed as a means to punish Quentin for his betrayal. The deed itself does veer into fridging territory, and would be confirmed as such if the fallout (unknown at this point) does not deliver on propelling the series and characters forward, and significantly. Some of the reviews have suggested that Laurel might have been given a more worthy death if she had been killed in her role as ADA Lance, maybe in a hit in the courtroom or on her way to court. Killing a public officer of the court might have galvanized the public to finally say no more to all the corruption and criminality in the city and maybe this would give Ollie the moral impetus to finally claim his destiny once and for all. It's hard to make any comparisons with the fallout on everyone unknown.

Maybe there is a 1% chance that there's a twist and "dead" isn't dead in the way we see it -- the existence of time travel, magic and sci-fi tech in their universe means anything is possible -- but it would have to be one phenomenal, meticulously-plotted story arc to sell it. I just don't see how a) they would even do that and risk undercutting the real potential for using the death fallout to tell new stories, further character growth etc. and b) that they could even pull off such a story arc in such a way that it didn't seem like a cheat or a stunt.

(And in a multiverse, Laurel and some version of BC is alive and well on Earth-2, Earth-3, Earth-4 etc. Even bringing back one of these versions into this timeline would be a bit of a cheat as well.)

I would think Ollie and Diggle esp. and the rest of the team would be looking for payback and Darhk would be their number one target. I don't think it'll be Malcolm's time yet, as I think he'll be around for S5 as the alpha-baddie.

[JDBentz]

I'm still processing the shock of it all, with the comics fan in me struggling to accept it in the way the TV viewer in me is more willing to acknowledge that they are going to tell a story and have it play out regardless of trying to mesh with DC canon.

I think it will be a much clearer picture by the season finale just how much of an impact Laurel/BC's death will have on the team and, most important, on Ollie's personal journey in the long-term. The only way any BC should die on a GA show should be in some form of death-and-glory scenario, either in sacrificing oneself to save Ollie or a team member or in the existential sense aka her death propels Ollie forward on his journey and forges him into a better hero. I'm thinking they are trying to go for the latter, and the execution of this theme from now until the finale and quite likely into S5 will determine if the series achieves the "pay off" of killing a main roster character.

I didn't get Laurel suddenly declaring the soulmate stuff re: Ollie, considering she has long been a much better character when she was as far away from Ollie's heart as possible. Whether it was a late-inning nod to GA and BC's comics relationship or their way of acknowledging that Laurel and Ollie are friends with history and some deep connection (not necessarily on a romantic level), I think it could have been achieved without giving the impression she was pining away for him in silence -- unknown to anyone(!) -- for years. Makes little sense and I'm headcanoning that the connection they have was more in the platonic/spiritual sense ... and nothing to do with wanting to be Ollie's love interest.

I'm of the opinion that if they did indeed kill BC, this version of her is dead. To properly honour whatever impact, short-term and esp. long-term, her death will have on the team and Ollie going forward, it would have to be real, permanent and irreversible. Since they chose to kill someone of BC's status on a show about GA, anything less would be unacceptable. The death has to mean something, and something profound to everyone esp. Ollie. If they got the notion that it could be faked, reversed or reset by magic or time travel, it would undercut this impact or cheapen it.

I do hear the "fridging" complaints -- she was killed as a means to punish Quentin for his betrayal. The deed itself does veer into fridging territory, and would be confirmed as such if the fallout (unknown at this point) does not deliver on propelling the series and characters forward, and significantly. Some of the reviews have suggested that Laurel might have been given a more worthy death if she had been killed in her role as ADA Lance, maybe in a hit in the courtroom or on her way to court. Killing a public officer of the court might have galvanized the public to finally say no more to all the corruption and criminality in the city and maybe this would give Ollie the moral impetus to finally claim his destiny once and for all. It's hard to make any comparisons with the fallout on everyone unknown.

Maybe there is a 1% chance that there's a twist and "dead" isn't dead in the way we see it -- the existence of time travel, magic and sci-fi tech in their universe means anything is possible -- but it would have to be one phenomenal, meticulously-plotted story arc to sell it. I just don't see how a) they would even do that and risk undercutting the real potential for using the death fallout to tell new stories, further character growth etc. and b) that they could even pull off such a story arc in such a way that it didn't seem like a cheat or a stunt.

(And in a multiverse, Laurel and some version of BC is alive and well on Earth-2, Earth-3, Earth-4 etc. Even bringing back one of these versions into this timeline would be a bit of a cheat as well.)

I would think Ollie and Diggle esp. and the rest of the team would be looking for payback and Darhk would be their number one target. I don't think it'll be Malcolm's time yet, as I think he'll be around for S5 as the alpha-baddie.

As someone who wasn't a comics fan (I only picked up and read my first GA comic last night, The Longbow Hunters), I didn't have that side warring with me. the side that was warring with the television viewer side was my storytelling side. Looking back, I can sort of see the clues building up, but not near as enough as there are for other characters. However, I don't know what they have planned for the rest of the season. Maybe, just maybe, Laurel's death is the only one to truly open up some powerful new avenues.

As a TV viewer, I don't want to see a figure I connect with die so horribly; but as a storyteller, I recognize that killing a universally-loved character like Diggle or Quentin would see an en masse departure. Neither Felicity nor Laurel are universally beloved by the fandom, but seeing as Felicity had chosen to leave the team and was, for the most part, not involved, she simply wouldn't have had the impact needed, especially as Episode 18 often tends to be the unofficial beginning to the final chapter of each season. Season 1 had Oliver, Felicity, and Dig discover that the List, the other archer, the Undertaking was all connected to the Glades. Season 2 had both Thea and Roy telling Oliver they had believed in him, devastated by events that occurred and shunning his attempts to reach out. Season 3 had the city turn on the Arrow and Oliver exposed by Ra's before Roy took the blame of being the Arrow. This season's Episode 18 fits the pattern.

I agree that Season 5 will most likely bring us full circle, but rather than a face-off between a vengeful vigilante and a smug businessman-slash-assassin, we will see a showdown between the Green Arrow and the Dark Archer. Malcolm has a nice new prosthetic he can use to hold his bow with.

[MackPowee]

By now we all know that Laurel is died but I have to ask what excuse will they use for not bring her back. Now before you say that they destroyed the Lazarus Pit we have to remember that they have The Flash and a whole team that can time travel.

[JDBentz]

By now we all know that Laurel is died but I have to ask what excuse will they use for not bring her back. Now before you say that they destroyed the Lazarus Pit we have to remember that they have The Flash and a whole team that can time travel.

Especially once you factor in that Sara is part of said team and that Rip assembled the team primarily out of a desire to ensure his wife and child are not killed by Savage.