Loved It? Hated it? What did you think of "Beyond Redemption?"

[Amarice]

Thea Buys 80 “Keys”!

I’m sorry but this part was pretty funny to me (probably b/c I’m just ignorant)

But wow – who knew Thea had been such a good customer back in the day!

So: being back around drugs and clubs reminded her of her high school days --- I guess those were the days when she’d buy – what, oh about 80 “keys” give or take for a weekend party!! Really? Her old dealer didn’t think it was any big deal to sell her 80 kgs of coke? That sure seems like a lot for recreational customers … (I found a reference from 2010 that coke retailed for roughly $169 per gram**), so Palmer Tech had to fork out what? About 13 million give or take? Interesting investment for Palmer Tech – how will they recoup that? What are they going to do with all of it now that the crooked-cop-sting is over? If Dig kept the receipt, can they get a refund? Can they get a tax credit? (I’m not trying to get any snarky sideways digs in at Felicity or Palmer Tech here, I promise. …)

And then I had to laugh when Oliver went and off-handedly informed Quentin, “I’ve had Thea procure a couple kilos of cocaine.”

I hope those with DEA expertise will correct what I’m sure are all my misconceptions here that I’m having some trouble suspending disbelief ( ie teens and young adults do buy about 80 “keys” from their dealers for friends at parties?) and then I promise I will admit my ignorance and take this part seriously, seriously! Any help so I can buy-in to this part of the story will be much appreciated!

**Source: US Office of National Drug Control Policy. Based on purchases of 2 grams or less – so maybe Thea got a discount for being a really good customer? https://www.unodc.org/unodc/secured/...oin_Prices.pdf

Thanks for bringing this up. Being not familiar with the slang I had no idea that a key means actually a kilo!

This. Is. Ridiculous.

[Shelby Kent]

It great Paul Blackthorne with some great one-liner - those are stron points of this episode.

I’m so glad you collected all those great one-liners and put them in one place – yes, they really added so much to my enjoyment, of the show and the character. It was kind of like, despite all his earlier efforts and struggles to keep the city under control and to be the law-and-order guy trying to do the right thing and not condone vigilantism (even “good” vigilantes; altho’ to be honest the writers had him going back and forth on this issue so often I just lost track of whatever his most current position was….)… but anyway, Quentin had kind of just thrown in the towel, said to heck with it, this is the reality, might as well just go along and deal with it the best I can and make some wisecracks along the way. It was like he was getting his digs in but also making fun of himself for just having lost control at keeping any semblance of normality. Like when an overwhelmed parent just acknowledges the children are running the show…

… the highlighting of a neglected character and a fine actor (Paul Blackthorne) made this episode a whole lot more enjoyable than the last one, at least in my eyes.

It was so bizzare to me when something, which was my headcanon for so long, found the confirmation in the show. Ollie admitting openly that he values how Lance sees him. Guess that explains why Quentin was the police detective he did choose to bother back in the season 1

Agree with all the many posters who have highlighted PB’s acting and how enjoyable the Quentin scenes generally were.

I saw the Ollie-confronts-Quentin-about-DD scene from 2 perspectives. First, I do think the main point of this whole scene was to show how Ollie felt about Quentin (congrats, Amarice, for your perceptive headcanon…) and how a young man felt “betrayed” when he sees one of the people he looks up to in certain matters (a father figure in many ways perhaps) reveal himself as flawed.

And the second way I look at this is that Oliver’s accusation and discovery of Quentin working with DD did not succeed in making me see Quentin as being “one-down” in relation to Ollie in the morals/virtue/character/ethics department. I didn’t really see Quentin as being “weak” here.

Apparently, going only by the surveillance camera evidence, Oliver has already indicted Quentin before really investigating (by first discussing with Quentin). Even though Oliver comes to Q’s house in order to “discover” what’s going on, he’s has already made up his mind. The minute Q walks through the door, Oliver pretty much says this look on my face (contempt) is what I feel for you, Q had no idea of what he’s talking about, THEN Oliver reveals his knowledge about meeting between Q & DD, THEN Q gets that “look on his face” which Oliver says confirms that he (Oliver) is right. But Oliver’s look of contempt was there before he had any confirmation that Q’s dealings with DD were not-above board.

So just seeing the two together led Oliver to jump to conclusions (which happened to be right) and judge Q. Upon first seeing the video, Oliver doesn’t know, for instance, if maybe Q was running a sting or anything. Also, when he shows up at Q’s Oliver is not really interested in hearing WHAT and WHY the Q & DD alliance might be going on. He’s also immediately dismissive of Q’s concerns about Laurel’s safety (even tho’ Ollie himself has done some questionable things for others’ safety such as kidnapping Lyla, and concocting his plan to allow Ras’ to haul the virus to Star City which Ollie then loses control of …). He's dismissive of understanding Q's feelings (and of course Oliver has no idea how it feels to be a parent....)

However I know this isn’t really about Ollie trying to understand what Quentin’s doing and how events might have come to pass. I don’t think it makes Oliver look good or righteous and I don’t think it makes Quentin look as bad as Oliver sees him at that moment in time … I think it tells me about how Oliver feels and, as Amarice says, tells me about his relationship with Quentin (from Oliver’s side) and I think it did set up a situation where Quentin could unburden himself about what he’s gotten into and therefore Oliver and the team can now start helping him….. I thought it was really excellent scene overall. (This is the kind of stuff I have missed since, for me, Oliver got derailed by the Olicity storyline.)

Yup, probably sets things up for Quentin to have a future good functional working relationship with the team and Oliver, so: time to kill him off … just when I had something to be happy about!

Also, as an aside, I think b/c Oliver can be a very strong, dominating, quick-to-be-sure-of-himself personality, it’s a good thing that other team members are sometimes skeptical of him and give him a hard time (ie Dig, Laurel, Thea not being right-off-the-bat “supportive” of his run for mayor) b/c such a character needs people around who can challenge and provide dissent, both to keep the character grounded and to keep the dynamics interesting for the viewer. Strong leaders can handle and actually welcome challenges and different viewpoints from those they surround themselves with; weak leaders can’t.

[SteelyGal]

The only thing I can think of was maybe the knife wasn't at all deep. She was threatening to cut the spinal cord, that would be right at the surface, maybe she was going to start at the top and go down, thus only barely stabbing him?

Yeah, I'm trying very hard here to make it work.

This is Oliver Queen. At one time the Heir to the Demon who has single handedly taken down individuals bigger and stronger than that cop. It makes absolutely no sense to me. Plus he is wearing Kevlar so by the time she uses enough force to get the knife to go through it, he could have knocked her out with a quick elbow. That scene was cringe-worthy especially knowing down the road I am suppose to believe he can take out Damian Darkk.

[Shelby Kent]

Anyway, the fact that we were spared the OTA references/Olicity PDA/badass Felicity that we got in the "Restoration" episode (some of which felt like fanservice to me),

Yes, I was quite surprised to find that generally the way Felicty was written in this ep worked for me.

Generally what I liked about her lair scenes and initial campaign office scene was that she came across as the intelligent woman that she is, but to me she also felt mature like she "owned" her intelligence and her responsibilities and that she didn’t need to get herself all tangled up in “adorkableness” or making her “cutesy nerdy” asides.

The "adorkableness" wore off long ago for me and the “cute” asides always felt like she had WAY too much awareness of what she was doing --- more like she was always amusing herself with how nerdily “cute” she thought she could be (thought being the operative word here for me, as I felt l was being "sold" an idea/image which I found highly debatable and the character's excessive self-awareness of this detracted from the concept and was highly irritating).

This Felicity still had her verbal asides and a few awkward moments (like sliding around in her new chair) but it felt fine.

This portrayal let me respect her for who she is (a valuable team member), appreciate that she has her own personality quirks, and did so without trying to cram an image (oh look at the adorkable cute nerd! Isn’t she funny, don't you just love her!) down my throat …

Also, I don’t like Olicity but it is a fact. Since it is a fact I think Oliciteers should get a few Olicity scenes. With emphasis on few. That does seem fair. As long as it doesn't get out of control, of course...

And speaking of Olicity PDA, I have noticed that CW males find facial “crinkliness” (crinkly nose, crinkly eyebrows [--- perhaps crinkly nostrils will be next? And I do mean “nostril” and not cartilage/bridge area] to be an endearing quality in CW females....must be something that's addressed in the officially-sanctioned-CW-go-to-cliche files...)

[DoubleDevil]

And the second way I look at this is that Oliver’s accusation and discovery of Quentin working with DD did not succeed in making me see Quentin as being “one-down” in relation to Ollie in the morals/virtue/character/ethics department. I didn’t really see Quentin as being “weak” here.

Apparently, going only by the surveillance camera evidence, Oliver has already indicted Quentin before really investigating (by first discussing with Quentin). Even though Oliver comes to Q’s house in order to “discover” what’s going on, he’s has already made up his mind. The minute Q walks through the door, Oliver pretty much says this look on my face (contempt) is what I feel for you, Q had no idea of what he’s talking about, THEN Oliver reveals his knowledge about meeting between Q & DD, THEN Q gets that “look on his face” which Oliver says confirms that he (Oliver) is right. But Oliver’s look of contempt was there before he had any confirmation that Q’s dealings with DD were not-above board.

So just seeing the two together led Oliver to jump to conclusions (which happened to be right) and judge Q. Upon first seeing the video, Oliver doesn’t know, for instance, if maybe Q was running a sting or anything. Also, when he shows up at Q’s Oliver is not really interested in hearing WHAT and WHY the Q & DD alliance might be going on. He’s also immediately dismissive of Q’s concerns about Laurel’s safety (even tho’ Ollie himself has done some questionable things for others’ safety such as kidnapping Lyla, and concocting his plan to allow Ras’ to haul the virus to Star City which Ollie then loses control of …). He's dismissive of understanding Q's feelings (and of course Oliver has no idea how it feels to be a parent....)

While it might have worked in the show, it shows me once again poor writing on the part of the showrunners.

Also, as an aside, I think b/c Oliver can be a very strong, dominating, quick-to-be-sure-of-himself personality, it’s a good thing that other team members are sometimes skeptical of him and give him a hard time (ie Dig, Laurel, Thea not being right-off-the-bat “supportive” of his run for mayor) b/c such a character needs people around who can challenge and provide dissent, both to keep the character grounded and to keep the dynamics interesting for the viewer. Strong leaders can handle and actually welcome challenges and different viewpoints from those they surround themselves with; weak leaders can’t.

Strong leaders actually thrive on those that question them, not all the time and every decision but occasionally when needed. Weak leaders and tyrants prefer Yes-men that follow without question and say yes and amen to everything their leader tells them.

Personally I wasn't overwhelmed by this episode. Things were much to convenient, whether it was the right cop with the right weapon against the right vigilante, cops even bringing the weapons with them just when the vigilantes are planning a trap, Oliver turning his back on the crooked cop after capturing her, happening to walk into his campaign office shortly before announcing his candidacy and being surprised to see a team already working for him, stumbling across footage of Quentin talking to Damien, etc... Another thing was again some poor acting, I like KC but that taser scene was crappy. First the taser moved from the back of her shoulder to the front (might be accurate but just looked like poor cgi work or as if KC was moving to much for taser guy to remain in the correct position) and second Laurel fell and then it looked like she was checking if she landed correctly. Convenient and poor acting I thought was Felicity remembering to feel grief for Ray's death. Chipper Felicity makes a few cracks, hears about Ray and goes into grief only to spring back to chipper Felicity. It's not the fault of EBR or even Felicity as a character as much as a fault of the showrunners.

[Haggard01]

Well a little late but here's my review.

---

Ok first the good

I enjoyed the Quentin and Oliver moments. That has some very amazing acting, period. Also has almost in a way has been a confrontation building since the pilot episode.

The cops stealing drugs while wasn't the best of story lines did show how the entirety of Star City is being affected.

The new Arrowcave is pretty incredibly sweat. The concept art dos not do it justice.

So glad Oliver talking about whether this city was worth saving was with someone else other than Felicity.

The flashbacks are still being good this year. They have learned their lesson since last year on both to many non Oliver flashbacks and trying to set it up present day stuff to much. This year it more of seams to be like a return to season 1 of the flashbacks are their own thing and they are better off for it.

Also I think this is the first time in the flashbacks Oliver has ever been called "a stone cold Killer" and they usually called Oliver that in season 1. It may just be me but I think Oliver is kind of like full on Hood mode minus a few important tattoos and his green hood.

The trick Oliver used on that worker lady who I'm guessing is someone important considering we don't know her name yet but is actually not something new. That fake dead trick actually was used by Oliver in season 1 to fake the death of a man Aleix told him to kill for The Bratva and Yao Fei used it on him in the flashbacks. So I really like they actually remembered Oliver knew how to do that and put it in the episode.

I have the funny feeling that Conklin saying he's not scared of Oliver being a stone cold killer due to being the exact same way that Oliver is going to take it as a personal challenge.

Considering that Conklin found Oliver's AGRUS device I have the gut feeling that can go either of two ways. Oliver finds him and kills him before he's able to make it back to camp or this does blow up in Oliver's face which now means Oliver and the worker lady is now on the run. Because we know from 3X14 Oliver had set traps all around Lian Yu and he for sure did not do that in seasons 1 or 2.

After this episode despite the worker lady being Oliver's new love interest I have the feeling that for Oliver or maybe just for them both it's going to be nothing more than simple physical pleasure.

---

Now the bad

The whole thing with Laurel Lance acting keeping her soul less sister changed up in a an apartment building apparently (it's the old Foundry set if I'm not mistaken) and acting a bit delusional from about this I'm just ignoring for this episode. Because not only has Laurel been shackled with the "bring back Sara for LoT" plot but these writers (I'm being extremely polite) do not know how to write women period. They write them wish washy.

Moving on Felicity banking Team Arrow, sigh because not only are the writers propping her up but now she even said it may be difficult getting this mysterious expense past the board of PT which I have the feeling they are not even going to follow up on. Ever since Oliver lost his company in season 2 his fiancés have been worse than Malcolm's different tales of how he received the news his wife died.

Felicity telling Curtis he's got the wrong guy for Green Arrow? Like really your supposed to be keeping the secret, not telling people they got the wrong guy to lead to him finding out Oliver's.

Another thing Oliver’s A.R.G.U.S. device not being encrypted and the old messages still visible.

[Shelby Kent]

While it might have worked in the show, it shows me once again poor writing on the part of the showrunners.

Yes, I do wonder about the writing (the sequence of events during which Oliver hurls his accusation). My first reaction was that Oliver was being kind of a hot-headed judgmental “brat” (b/c I don’t really like him that much anymore…) so I did try to think: well, what if the writers wanted us to see that Oliver was so emotional about this that he didn’t even try to ask Q about this first… There’s just so much bad writing on this show at times that I don’t know when I’m seeing stuff that is done purposefully and when it’s just careless…. I decided to give benefit of doubt here…

Personally I wasn't overwhelmed by this episode. Things were much to convenient, whether it was the right cop with the right weapon against the right vigilante, cops even bringing the weapons with them just when the vigilantes are planning a trap, Oliver turning his back on the crooked cop after capturing her, happening to walk into his campaign office shortly before announcing his candidacy and being surprised to see a team already working for him, stumbling across footage of Quentin talking to Damien, etc... Another thing was again some poor acting, I like KC but that taser scene was crappy. First the taser moved from the back of her shoulder to the front (might be accurate but just looked like poor cgi work) and second Laurel fell and then it looked like she was checking if she landed correctly. Convenient and poor acting I thought was Felicity remembering to feel grief for Ray's death. Chipper Felicity makes a few cracks, hears about Ray and goes into grief only to spring back to chipper Felicity. It's not the fault of EBR or even Felicity as a character as much as a fault of the showrunners.

Agree with all the comments critical of the cop scenes.

Also found it totally unbelievable that Liza would have so cold-bloodedly made the decisions she did (steal and sell drugs b/c the city couldn’t be depended on as a decent place to make a living; kill 2 of her fellow cops during commission of a crime; threaten to kill a partner cop; declare vociferously that she was not a criminal; plan to leave the city altogether) then suddenly reverse course b/c Quentin was so inspiring. Not to mention when she just stood there at one point saying to Ollie “is that all you got?”

Worst of all in the believability department for me was the whole concept that any of the characters on the show would make the decision to keep Sara chained to heating duct (?) in the basement of an apartment.

The idea that I am supposed to “buy” that any character would solve the where-do-I-stash-Sara-problem this way is laughable (goes on the shelf right beside: it’s a good idea to make Felicity CEO; let us publicists characterize Felicity as Ollie’s long-time flame; Felicity flies ATOM suit; and Ras’ ships Olicity).

Only good thing was it was so bad that for me it didn’t reflect on any of the characters involved (not just Laurel but why would Quentin see her, then go back off to work thinking, yeah, that’s a good place to keep her for now…).

Just another giant black mark on the writers' skills (lack thereof) or laziness, far as I'm concerned.

I did feel bad for KC and CL b/c I think what they got handed was almost impossible to work with (kept thinking I was watching an improv exercise for 2 actors in a workshop: “okay, pretend this undead creature is your sister and you love her very much and you’re going to show her some photos from the family album to help her reconnect….and you, pretend you’re the undead creature without a soul and you’re just hanging out chained up to a piece of heating duct in the basement….).

I think PB at least got some better material but he had to cycle through so many emotions in such quick sequence for what would in reality be a devastating situation that it was all totally unbelievable to me (not his acting…but just the scenario). I laughed and spent quite a bit of time wondering how Laurel was supposed to make sure Sara got her bathroom breaks …

But was I really surprised this was what the writers came up with? No...

[President_Luthor]

So Thea bought more keys in one order than the Sons of Anarchy muled for the drug cartel in their S4 (theirs was only 30 keys)? Didn't know Thea was such a player in the illicit drugs arena. I guess I'll be chalking this one up in the suspension of disbelief category too. After three seasons, the s of d storage room is filling up.

Bringing back Sara for LOT is a 'necessary evil' sort of subplot, a job that needed to be done ASAP. Therein lies the problem. It's rushed, TPTB rushed it and the Lances get stuck with an LOT subplot that so far has a limited link to Arrow's S4 itself. And yes it does undercut a bit all of the narrative fallout from Sara's initial death. KC and CL aren't given much to work with plot/writing-wise, as well as PL. It's to PL's credit he brought what he did emotionally in that scene where Quentin was about to shoot Sara.

[evaba]

Yes, I was quite surprised to find that generally the way Felicty was written in this ep worked for me.

Generally what I liked about her lair scenes and initial campaign office scene was that she came across as the intelligent woman that she is, but to me she also felt mature like she "owned" her intelligence and her responsibilities and that she didn’t need to get herself all tangled up in “adorkableness” or making her “cutesy nerdy” asides.

The "adorkableness" wore off long ago for me and the “cute” asides always felt like she had WAY too much awareness of what she was doing --- more like she was always amusing herself with how nerdily “cute” she thought she could be (thought being the operative word here for me, as I felt l was being "sold" an idea/image which I found highly debatable and the character's excessive self-awareness of this detracted from the concept and was highly irritating).

I definitely agree with you that Felicity's "cute(sy)"/adorkable/awkward" mannerisms got stale and forced pretty fast, so I'm also thankful when the writers and directors tune that side of her personality down a bit. Some of these mannerisms were indeed funny and cute in the beginning, but after a while it felt as though both the writers and Emily become too self-aware, so that you almost felt like they were signposting the whole thing in a "look, here comes a cute/awkward/adorkable moment again" manner, and it didn't feel natural.

This Felicity still had her verbal asides and a few awkward moments (like sliding around in her new chair) but it felt fine.

This portrayal let me respect her for who she is (a valuable team member), appreciate that she has her own personality quirks, and did so without trying to cram an image (oh look at the adorkable cute nerd! Isn’t she funny, don't you just love her!) down my throat …

Agree...

Also, I don’t like Olicity but it is a fact. Since it is a fact I think Oliciteers should get a few Olicity scenes. With emphasis on few. That does seem fair. As long as it doesn't get out of control, of course...

And speaking of Olicity PDA, I have noticed that CW males find facial “crinkliness” (crinkly nose, crinkly eyebrows [--- perhaps crinkly nostrils will be next? And I do mean “nostril” and not cartilage/bridge area] to be an endearing quality in CW females....must be something that's addressed in the officially-sanctioned-CW-go-to-cliche files...)

I haven't thought about that, but now that you say it, I've also noticed that Caitlyn/Danielle has that slightly crinkly nose/wide-eyed look as well. Don't know if it's a CW thing, though, since the only other CW show I watch is "Flash", and some "Supernatural".

[JohnReese]

It was awesome .

[BkWurm1]

Convenient and poor acting I thought was Felicity remembering to feel grief for Ray's death. Chipper Felicity makes a few cracks, hears about Ray and goes into grief only to spring back to chipper Felicity. It's not the fault of EBR or even Felicity as a character as much as a fault of the showrunners.

I guess different people react to grief in different ways. I have no trouble going from a sad moment to cracking jokes even at a funeral and this was six months later. Even going from all out bawling, I'm usually good with letting the crying get the emotions out and then I can feel pretty good moving forward even if nothing has changed. I'm a great believer in letting the tears come to purge the toxic chemicals that are making a person feel even worse.

And speaking of Olicity PDA, I have noticed that CW males find facial “crinkliness” (crinkly nose, crinkly eyebrows [--- perhaps crinkly nostrils will be next? And I do mean “nostril” and not cartilage/bridge area] to be an endearing quality in CW females....must be something that's addressed in the officially-sanctioned-CW-go-to-cliche files...)

I didn't get that he found it endearing, just that it was a sign she was upset.

Changing the topic and this is an open question to everyone. Why do you like the flashbacks? I'm asking because apart from the first one I have been completely bored to tears by them. Not to mention it's all been really hard to believe that they'd find a dude running loose around the island and their first thought is, yeah, lets give him a gun!

Let's also go back to the fact that they are even growing their hybrid poppies with a slave labor, why? All over the world there are farmers perfectly willing to work for subsistence level wages growing plants for the drug trade that don't need the extra expense of an armed guard standing over them. Why go to Lian Yu? The place is riddled with landmines and booby traps, every person and all provisions have to be imported, and again, they could do this cheaper by just paying farmers. But that's merely why I find the plot line silly.

I'm bored because so far nothing has happened. We knew since the moment that Oliver landed that they had guards watching slaves working a poppy field. That's really still all we know. Fine, we also know it is a hybrid that produces a drug called Slam. Don't care. We've also met a few of the armed guards. Again, why should I care? We don't even have a name for the woman that Oliver has pretended to kill. So why should I care? Sure, she has been shown to care for the other workers, but only in a general no personality way and even then, she was willing to let a guy take a bullet to the brain rather than admit to taking the drug even if watching torture eventually got to her. Again, why should I care? ( I don't think I would even recognize any of the actors in the flashbacks, they've made so little of an impression.)

Oliver is trying to play the bad guy but not really be that bad guy. Yeah, I already knew that too.

This whole flashback in this episode was just stuff we already knew. Oliver is going to fake her death. We knew that last week. So they spend the whole episode walking and chatting about how dark Oliver is on their way to look at the body. How about you show me he's dark rather than have a goon look him in the eye and just see it. Boring! THEN, all of this time spent proving himself is wasted as they find his computer - that doesn't even have the same level of security as a free email account - and he's exposed! So, basically, the last three weeks of flashbacks have been for nothing and we still know nothing about what is going on or why we should care.


But I come here and everyone is loving the flashbacks and I seriously don't get it. Why are they appealing to you?

Edited to add: I really am curious. I shared my viewpoint and am honestly interested in hearing what is making them work for anyone else because they are not going to go away and I'd rather not have my brain hit the snooze button every time the present day story is interrupted.

[tua33915]

This Felicity still had her verbal asides and a few awkward moments (like sliding around in her new chair) but it felt fine.

That awkward moment with the chair wasn't scripted. In an interview with the director of the episode it was pointed out that that moment - Stephen asking if she was alright and Emily saying she wasn't used to the chair - was improvised and the two of them thinking on their feet in character. Many of her "awkward" moments aren't written into the script - starting with her very first scene in season one episode three. Nobody told her to react to him that way. And nobody told him to smile. The rest is history.

[Shelby Kent]

That awkward moment with the chair wasn't scripted. In an interview with the director of the episode it was pointed out that that moment - Stephen asking if she was alright and Emily saying she wasn't used to the chair - was improvised and the two of them thinking on their feet in character. Many of her "awkward" moments aren't written into the script - starting with her very first scene in season one episode three. Nobody told her to react to him that way. And nobody told him to smile. The rest is history.

Very interesting tidbit. Thanks for sharing.

While I didn't think there was anything about the chair-awkwardness that was particularly stand-out as an isolated moment, it did stand out to me b/c it was not as over-the-top as many of her other "awkward" moments are.

I can't recall the various awkward moments she had in S1 but generally they worked for me -- maybe a few misfires.

I think starting in S2 it all started getting to be too much for me (very much like stuff was being "sign-posted" as evaba describes it). I literally felt like I was trapped in a scenario that a person might find themselves in real life if you're dealing with a toddler or young child and they just happen to do something that is cute and then you compliment them or laugh (or in some way signal approval or positive feedback) then next thing you know there's a good chance the kid is going to start doing the same gesture over and over and over again ..... and it gets incredibly tiresome and certainly is no longer cute (since now it's all very deliberate and intentional).**

Well, that's been a lot of my experience (that feeling) with the Felicity character. So I don't know what blend of improvisation and scripted moments and directed moments led to the volume of awkwardness in S2 and on being turned up way too high, but if they can keep it dialed back down via any particular person's, or blend of people's, influence, that's what I would prefer.....

** Before anyone takes offense: no I did not just say Felicity or EBR is a toddler...

[evaba]

Very interesting tidbit. Thanks for sharing.

While I didn't think there was anything about the chair-awkwardness that was particularly stand-out as an isolated moment, it did stand out to me b/c it was not as over-the-top as many of her other "awkward" moments are.

I can't recall the various awkward moments she had in S1 but generally they worked for me -- maybe a few misfires.

I think starting in S2 it all started getting to be too much for me (very much like stuff was being "sign-posted" as evaba describes it). I literally felt like I was trapped in a scenario that a person might find themselves in real life if you're dealing with a toddler or young child and they just happen to do something that is cute and then you compliment them or laugh (or in some way signal approval or positive feedback) then next thing you know there's a good chance the kid is going to start doing the same gesture over and over and over again ..... and it gets incredibly tiresome and certainly is no longer cute (since now it's all very deliberate and intentional).**

Well, that's been a lot of my experience (that feeling) with the Felicity character. So I don't know what blend of improvisation and scripted moments and directed moments led to the volume of awkwardness in S2 and on being turned up way too high, but if they can keep it dialed back down via any particular person's, or blend of people's, influence, that's what I would prefer.....

** Before anyone takes offense: no I did not just say Felicity or EBR is a toddler...

I share your feelings, @Shelby. I'm sure that some of Felicity's mannerisms and body language were spontaneous in the beginning, but when the writers/producers/directors saw the response to this "quirkyness", they started putting it in the script, and then it sometimes became forced and too much of a good thing. Let's not forget that this is a scripted show, and EBR is only saying (and often doing) what the writers/directors tell her to say and do. It was the writers who gave her the IMHO sometimes cringe-worthy sexual innuendos in seasons one and two, and it is the writers who come up with her supposedly cute/awkward/funny quips, which are not always really funny or appropriate.

So, in some ways I think it benefitted Felicity's character that they toned down this part of her personality in season three, and also in season four (although Felicity is certainly more sunny and quippy now). I actually feel the same about Oliver's response...it is as if he HAS to smile in a tender and beaming manner whenever Felicity makes one of her quips or gaffes, just to show the viewers that Felicity is indeed his light and source of happiness. I personally find the interaction between Oliver and Felicity more natural and real when they don't have to live up to this preconceived idea about their relationship and just interact like a normal couple, rather than the Damaged Hero and his Manic Pixie Dreamgirl.

[Haggard01]

I guess different people react to grief in different ways. I have no trouble going from a sad moment to cracking jokes even at a funeral and this was six months later. Even going from all out bawling, I'm usually good with letting the crying get the emotions out and then I can feel pretty good moving forward even if nothing has changed. I'm a great believer in letting the tears come to purge the toxic chemicals that are making a person feel even worse.
I didn't get that he found it endearing, just that it was a sign she was upset.

Changing the topic and this is an open question to everyone. Why do you like the flashbacks? I'm asking because apart from the first one I have been completely bored to tears by them. Not to mention it's all been really hard to believe that they'd find a dude running loose around the island and their first thought is, yeah, lets give him a gun!

Let's also go back to the fact that they are even growing their hybrid poppies with a slave labor, why? All over the world there are farmers perfectly willing to work for subsistence level wages growing plants for the drug trade that don't need the extra expense of an armed guard standing over them. Why go to Lian Yu? The place is riddled with landmines and booby traps, every person and all provisions have to be imported, and again, they could do this cheaper by just paying farmers. But that's merely why I find the plot line silly.

I'm bored because so far nothing has happened. We knew since the moment that Oliver landed that they had guards watching slaves working a poppy field. That's really still all we know. Fine, we also know it is a hybrid that produces a drug called Slam. Don't care. We've also met a few of the armed guards. Again, why should I care? We don't even have a name for the woman that Oliver has pretended to kill. So why should I care? Sure, she has been shown to care for the other workers, but only in a general no personality way and even then, she was willing to let a guy take a bullet to the brain rather than admit to taking the drug even if watching torture eventually got to her. Again, why should I care? ( I don't think I would even recognize any of the actors in the flashbacks, they've made so little of an impression.)

Oliver is trying to play the bad guy but not really be that bad guy. Yeah, I already knew that too.

This whole flashback in this episode was just stuff we already knew. Oliver is going to fake her death. We knew that last week. So they spend the whole episode walking and chatting about how dark Oliver is on their way to look at the body. How about you show me he's dark rather than have a goon look him in the eye and just see it. Boring! THEN, all of this time spent proving himself is wasted as they find his computer - that doesn't even have the same level of security as a free email account - and he's exposed! So, basically, the last three weeks of flashbacks have been for nothing and we still know nothing about what is going on or why we should care.


But I come here and everyone is loving the flashbacks and I seriously don't get it. Why are they appealing to you?

Edited to add: I really am curious. I shared my viewpoint and am honestly interested in hearing what is making them work for anyone else because they are not going to go away and I'd rather not have my brain hit the snooze button every time the present day story is interrupted.

A interesting post, Bkwurm. I'm really surprised no one has actually came and responded to this before now. I mean are you guys that obsessed with Felicity Smoak?

While as of this moment I'm not going to respond to this post in full since I kind of want a bit more time to think up some stuff and give a proper reply back. Ok I'm going to kind of touch on a few brief things.

On what else could they be doing besides the poppy fields or what they are doing besides the stuff we've kind of pieced together really the only season where we knew what the main buy really wanted or after pre mid season finale was in 20X6 aka the Keep Your Enemies Closer episode. That was the first time we saw what Ivo's real plans were.

In season 1 I don't think we ever found out until Darkness on the Edge of Town of Fyers wanting to blow up a plane and that was the second to last episode.

In season 3 while we knew of The Omega virus by The Climb episode we never really found out that it General Shrieve who wanted to use the Alpha/Omega bio weapon against Hong Kong until Broken Arrow.

That's all for now.