The Defenders

[darkphoenix21]

[jon-el87]

[darkphoenix21]

[darkphoenix21]

[jon-el87]

[DoubleDevil]

Twists and turns I didn't see coming, maybe some of them because I didn't want to see them. Loved Matt, Jessica I enjoyed, Luke and Danny didn't drag down the show for me despite the two of them I thought being the weakest of the shows.

[Halberdier17]

I finished episode 5 and will start episode 6 later.

I love the series so far. It is also easy to follow along for someone like me who have only seen one episode of Luke Cage and no episodes of Iron Fist.

I loved both Daredevil and Jessica Jones as series but I couldn't get into Luke Cage and I wasn't sure about Iron Fist, I actually wanted to force myself to finish Luke Cage first before I watched Iron Fist.

Maybe the Defenders will give me motivation to watch those two series.

[costas22]

Just finished it. All in all, I found it to be flawed, eventful and entertaining. IMO Daredevil's 1st season set the benchmark and while The Defenders clearly didn't surpass it, it was easily the next best thing we've seen from the Marvel/Netflix collaboration. Some thoughts that include spoilers from all 8 episodes:

[SPOILER]- I liked the fact that they took the slow burn approach in terms of bringing the 4 of them together. We got to find out what was going on in Matt, Jessica, Danny and Luke's lives since we last saw them and that was necessary seeing as their shows ended with cliffhangers. The first 3 episodes also did a good job of planting the seeds for the Hand storyline and tying everything together.

- The first teamup takes place at the end of episode 3 and it's a tremendous fight scene. Just like most of the action scenes of this series. After that, the climax battle is also a lot of fun and gave all 4 heroes a chance to shine.

- Even though this bunch of heroes is supposed to be more morally grey than the Avengers, it felt really wrong to see them blow up a building to kill off their enemies once and for all. Not to mention that it's still an act of terrorism as Cage (I think?) pointed out.

- The scenes between the 4 protagonists were usually entertaining, although I found the ones between Matt and Jessica to have the best dynamic. Matt and Danny in theory should have had the best rapport, but it's something that didn't show until the finale.

- I found Iron Fist to be the weak link of the 4 individual shows before this. And while Danny's characterization and fight scenes were improved here, I still had a difficult time warming up to him. Unlike Luke, Matt and Jessica, it feels like Danny still hasn't found his purpose. Granted, the series ended with him finally getting there, so here's hoping it sticks. All in all, I still find myself liking Colleen more than Danny.

- The decision to tie up Danny felt stupid and didn't make Luke, Matt and Jessica look particularly good, IMO. It also slowed down the show considerably because it was followed by the 3 of them spending most of the next episode at the police station.

- Stick was great as usual. I was sad to see him go.

- Misty was the obligatory law enforcement presence on the show and she was a better fit than Brett Mahoney due to her relationship with Luke. Her arm getting severed was a bit of a shocker. Marvel Tv is nowhere near as kid friendly as the MCU, but I still didn't expect something like that to happen to her. I feel sorry for her character. She can never catch a break.

- As for the other secondary characters, Foggy and Trish were fine additions while Claire was her usual blunt self. The one who was a bit of a drag, again, was Karen.

- Regarding the villains, I felt Elektra was used much better here than she was on Daredevil. She worked much better as the arch-nemesis. The only thing that confused me a bit was how much she remembered. We were led to believe that she was resurrected with zero memories from her previous life, yet by the end she remembered what she felt the first time she saw Matt.

- The Hand's run on these shows seemingly has come to an end (I mean, what else can they do with them?). They weren't terrible bad guys by any stretch, but I did find them a bit underwhelming, to be honest. Even Sigourney Weaver's character. At the same time, their end goal seems to change from show to show. Mind you, The Hand wanting to return to their home was a refreshing motive. It just contradicted their previous claims about wanting to take over New York.

- Some of the CGI for the elevator scenes in the finale left a lot to be desired.

- Will be interesting to see how Matt managed to survive, what injuries he suffered and where he ended up. For a while I thought they might have actually killed him off seeing as a 3rd Daredevil season hasn't officially been announced yet. Obviously that's not the case and hopefully we will get season 3 within the next 18 months. [/SPOILER]

[nate-dog1701d]

I had no idea it was only eight episodes. Interesting.

[DoubleDevil]

Just finished it. All in all, I found it to be flawed, eventful and entertaining. IMO Daredevil's 1st season set the benchmark and while The Defenders clearly didn't surpass it, it was easily the next best thing we've seen from the Marvel/Netflix collaboration. Some thoughts that include spoilers from all 8 episodes:

[SPOILER]- I liked the fact that they took the slow burn approach in terms of bringing the 4 of them together. We got to find out what was going on in Matt, Jessica, Danny and Luke's lives since we last saw them and that was necessary seeing as their shows ended with cliffhangers. The first 3 episodes also did a good job of planting the seeds for the Hand storyline and tying everything together.

- The first teamup takes place at the end of episode 3 and it's a tremendous fight scene. Just like most of the action scenes of this series. After that, the climax battle is also a lot of fun and gave all 4 heroes a chance to shine.

- Even though this bunch of heroes is supposed to be more morally grey than the Avengers, it felt really wrong to see them blow up a building to kill off their enemies once and for all. Not to mention that it's still an act of terrorism as Cage (I think?) pointed out.

- The scenes between the 4 protagonists were usually entertaining, although I found the ones between Matt and Jessica to have the best dynamic. Matt and Danny in theory should have had the best rapport, but it's something that didn't show until the finale.

- I found Iron Fist to be the weak link of the 4 individual shows before this. And while Danny's characterization and fight scenes were improved here, I still had a difficult time warming up to him. Unlike Luke, Matt and Jessica, it feels like Danny still hasn't found his purpose. Granted, the series ended with him finally getting there, so here's hoping it sticks. All in all, I still find myself liking Colleen more than Danny.

- The decision to tie up Danny felt stupid and didn't make Luke, Matt and Jessica look particularly good, IMO. It also slowed down the show considerably because it was followed by the 3 of them spending most of the next episode at the police station.

- Stick was great as usual. I was sad to see him go.

- Misty was the obligatory law enforcement presence on the show and she was a better fit than Brett Mahoney due to her relationship with Luke. Her arm getting severed was a bit of a shocker. Marvel Tv is nowhere near as kid friendly as the MCU, but I still didn't expect something like that to happen to her. I feel sorry for her character. She can never catch a break.

- As for the other secondary characters, Foggy and Trish were fine additions while Claire was her usual blunt self. The one who was a bit of a drag, again, was Karen.

- Regarding the villains, I felt Elektra was used much better here than she was on Daredevil. She worked much better as the arch-nemesis. The only thing that confused me a bit was how much she remembered. We were led to believe that she was resurrected with zero memories from her previous life, yet by the end she remembered what she felt the first time she saw Matt.

- The Hand's run on these shows seemingly has come to an end (I mean, what else can they do with them?). They weren't terrible bad guys by any stretch, but I did find them a bit underwhelming, to be honest. Even Sigourney Weaver's character. At the same time, their end goal seems to change from show to show. Mind you, The Hand wanting to return to their home was a refreshing motive. It just contradicted their previous claims about wanting to take over New York.

- Some of the CGI for the elevator scenes in the finale left a lot to be desired.

- Will be interesting to see how Matt managed to survive, what injuries he suffered and where he ended up. For a while I thought they might have actually killed him off seeing as a 3rd Daredevil season hasn't officially been announced yet. Obviously that's not the case and hopefully we will get season 3 within the next 18 months. [/SPOILER]

I agree, it was flawed but none the less enjoyable. I agree the slowburn start I actually found to be good and important, what's everyone been up to since we last saw them? And how are these 4 very headstrong, solo heroes going to band together into a team. (I believe that's still non-spoilery enough of a reply) Overall I'd probably give the show a 7, not great but above average and worth watching. Not sure if I place it over Jessica Jones but I probably would due to Matt and the more Daredevilesque take on the show.

[SPOILER]- As for blowing up the building to take out the Hand, Danny and Jessica I could see going for the idea, Jessica just a bit more reluctantly than Danny, and Matt knowing what he does of the Hand along with them taking Elektra from him, yeah he's on board (he did verify no innocents were in the building and he did kill Nobu multiple times). As for Luke, I don't know if he would've continued after being out voted, he doesn't know how the Hand works, what powers they have or how big of a threat they really are to his beloved Harlem (even this late in the game, he's heard the stories but hasn't seen any proof).

- Without them tying Danny up they wouldn't have found the plans to safely take down the building, Danny would've most likely have been captured anyway, Matt wouldn't have discovered Elektra had been to his place and Matt may have been exposed as Daredevil to the cops... Not saying it was good, but I do see why they did it.

- I loved Scott Glenn's Stick, he's an aged actor though so giving him such a role is risking to recast him any given season. Elektra did try to kill him in Daredevil season 2 and overall I do think her doing it was the best possible solution (I don't even think a showdown between Alexandra and Stick would've been any more satisfying for me).

- I was wondering if Misty was getting her cybornetic arm at the end of Luke Cage, there's no way she isn't now.

- Agreed, of all the supporting cast I found Karen the weakest, not for her acting skills but the lack of material she was given. She could've been the one going to the others finding out who they were and who they were connected to. Coleen was the biggest stand out followed by Misty and Claire (of course they had the most material to work with).

- They did mention that the promised “empty vessel“ isn't what they got when they resurrected Elektra.

- The motives we as viewers got seemed to change but let's not forget we've seen now 4 of the 5 factions and the location the Hand wanted was always very specific. At first I thought it was to raise their god but it was another entrance to Kun Lun. Could Nobu's (don't recall his Boss' name, the guy that was cutting open the bear) faction want in that way as a surprise attack to take over (war faction)? Baku did seem to have a different motivation, as if what he was doing was actually good and Kun Lun's methods were wrong (morally superior). Alexandra (revenge, felt unjustly wronged), by raising Elektra and her own diagnosis, forced an excellerated timeline. How better to hide what you're actually doing than to bring down the entire city. I do believe Madame Gao (still no idea what actually motivates her) may have survived, but the rest I'm pretty sure are gone.

- Sadly I think DD3 will be the last show they film, JJ2, LC2 and IF2, possibly even Punisher 2 will all come out before we get Daredevil season 3. Daredevil had the drive and motivation to be there for the city from the start, the other 3 are reluctant, they'll help if they have to but they'd rather not. Matt sacrificing himself should push all 3 of them to embrace who they are. Jessica I thought had the most profound change just by reopening her detective agency.

On a side note, when Matt actually took to the streets again in episode 2, that was Daredevil and why I stopped reading his comics (at age 8-9 I believe, I bought an issue now and then afterward but I couldn't fully get back behind him). He doesn't fight to uphold the law but for what's morally right. The problem with that is what's morally right for you doesn't mean it's morally right for me. Stop the store owners from shooting the kids sure but stop the kids from stealing too. And if he just went and took the stolen goods back to the store owners. Instead he gave the kids a complete pass.[/SPOILER]

[darkphoenix21]

^^^DD S3 starts filming in the fall with an expected release sometime in 2018.

You guys pretty much nailed everything I was thinking about. It was an enjoyable slow burn.

[costas22]

I agree, it was flawed but none the less enjoyable. I agree the slowburn start I actually found to be good and important, what's everyone been up to since we last saw them? And how are these 4 very headstrong, solo heroes going to band together into a team. (I believe that's still non-spoilery enough of a reply) Overall I'd probably give the show a 7, not great but above average and worth watching. Not sure if I place it over Jessica Jones but I probably would due to Matt and the more Daredevilesque take on the show.

7 or 7.5 would be my grade as well. For me the most important thing was that as a hero show, its heart was in the right place. We could debate about some of the heroes' decisions or about some of the villains' motives, but, the at the end of the day, it was about a group of dysfunctional good guys banding together to save the city and on that end it delivered. As someone who watches all Berlanti shows, it was actually refreshing to see a show stick to basics without forced melodrama, romantic overload or biased attempts at social commentary.

[SPOILER]
- As for blowing up the building to take out the Hand, Danny and Jessica I could see going for the idea, Jessica just a bit more reluctantly than Danny, and Matt knowing what he does of the Hand along with them taking Elektra from him, yeah he's on board (he did verify no innocents were in the building and he did kill Nobu multiple times). As for Luke, I don't know if he would've continued after being out voted, he doesn't know how the Hand works, what powers they have or how big of a threat they really are to his beloved Harlem (even this late in the game, he's heard the stories but hasn't seen any proof).

I guess you have a point about Jessica and Danny. Jessica would have no qualms about killing and Danny's life mission is to destroy the Hand. I guess itstruck me as odd that Matt would go along, because a big part of season 2 of DD revolved around him disagreeing with Punisher and Stick about killing criminals instead of bringing them to justice. Mind you, the issue isn't just about killing the Hand members. It's the collateral damage that might have been caused to innocent bystanders (of course the Defenders made sure that no one innocent was inside, but they didn't know what was going on outside the building).

- Without them tying Danny up they wouldn't have found the plans to safely take down the building, Danny would've most likely have been captured anyway, Matt wouldn't have discovered Elektra had been to his place and Matt may have been exposed as Daredevil to the cops... Not saying it was good, but I do see why they did it.

I just think they could have come up with a better plan to keep Danny busy while Matt and Jess found the plans. Tying up one of their best assets felt dumb and it backfired because Elektra actually had an easier job of capturing him after killing Stick. And it actually could have been worse if Stick killed him when he had the chance because Danny was defenseless.

- I was wondering if Misty was getting her cybornetic arm at the end of Luke Cage, there's no way she isn't now.

Definitely. To be honest, I didn't know too much about Misty in the comics, so I had no idea she had a cybornetic arm. That's why I was taken aback by what happened to her. It will be interesting to see how Misty with her new arm would work on Luke Cage, because that show seems to be more grounded in realism than the others.

- Agreed, of all the supporting cast I found Karen the weakest, not for her acting skills but the lack of material she was given. She could've been the one going to the others finding out who they were and who they were connected to.

Yeah. We didn't really get to see her in her element of hunting down a story. Her scened with Foggy were ok, but her scenes with Matt haven't done anything for me since season 1 of DD. They are a bit too Clana-like.

- They did mention that the promised “empty vessel“ isn't what they got when they resurrected Elektra.

That they did, but how so? Alexandra's mindwipe worked but not completely? And to what degree? Did Elektra remember everything about her past life by the end? They left the whole thing too vague for my liking. Unless Elektra's memories were jumpstarted when she was at Matt's house and I failed to pick up on that.

- I do believe Madame Gao (still no idea what actually motivates her) may have survived, but the rest I'm pretty sure are gone.

Oh, I am almost certain she survived. I never rule her out!

Speaking of Kun Lun, I read an interview by the Defenders' showrunner and when he was asked why Kun Lun's disappearance wasn't brought up here, he responded that this is something that the Iron Fist show will have to address.

- Sadly I think DD3 will be the last show they film, JJ2, LC2 and IF2, possibly even Punisher 2 will all come out before we get Daredevil season 3. Daredevil had the drive and motivation to be there for the city from the start, the other 3 are reluctant, they'll help if they have to but they'd rather not. Matt sacrificing himself should push all 3 of them to embrace who they are. Jessica I thought had the most profound change just by reopening her detective agency.

Lets hope darkphoenix21 is right and DD3 starts shooting soon. No disrespect to the other 3 shows (Jessica Jones is ok in its own wacky way, Luke Cage was fantastic while Cottonmouth was around and Iron Fist has potential to be better if its titular hero matures as a personality and a fighter), but Daredevil is the driving force of this universe, IMO.

Speaking of, I read somewhere that the name "Maggie" wasn't randomly dropped in the scene where Matt wakes up. Apparently she's his mother?[/SPOILER]

[DoubleDevil]

7 or 7.5 would be my grade as well. For me the most important thing was that as a hero show, its heart was in the right place. We could debate about some of the heroes' decisions or about some of the villains' motives, but, the at the end of the day, it was about a group of dysfunctional good guys banding together to save the city and on that end it delivered. As someone who watches all Berlanti shows, it was actually refreshing to see a show stick to basics without forced melodrama, romantic overload or biased attempts at social commentary.

[SPOILER]
- As for blowing up the building to take out the Hand, Danny and Jessica I could see going for the idea, Jessica just a bit more reluctantly than Danny, and Matt knowing what he does of the Hand along with them taking Elektra from him, yeah he's on board (he did verify no innocents were in the building and he did kill Nobu multiple times). As for Luke, I don't know if he would've continued after being out voted, he doesn't know how the Hand works, what powers they have or how big of a threat they really are to his beloved Harlem (even this late in the game, he's heard the stories but hasn't seen any proof).

I guess you have a point about Jessica and Danny. Jessica would have no qualms about killing and Danny's life mission is to destroy the Hand. I guess itstruck me as odd that Matt would go along, because a big part of season 2 of DD revolved around him disagreeing with Punisher and Stick about killing criminals instead of bringing them to justice. Mind you, the issue isn't just about killing the Hand members. It's the collateral damage that might have been caused to innocent bystanders (of course the Defenders made sure that no one innocent was inside, but they didn't know what was going on outside the building).

- Without them tying Danny up they wouldn't have found the plans to safely take down the building, Danny would've most likely have been captured anyway, Matt wouldn't have discovered Elektra had been to his place and Matt may have been exposed as Daredevil to the cops... Not saying it was good, but I do see why they did it.

I just think they could have come up with a better plan to keep Danny busy while Matt and Jess found the plans. Tying up one of their best assets felt dumb and it backfired because Elektra actually had an easier job of capturing him after killing Stick. And it actually could have been worse if Stick killed him when he had the chance because Danny was defenseless.

- I was wondering if Misty was getting her cybornetic arm at the end of Luke Cage, there's no way she isn't now.

Definitely. To be honest, I didn't know too much about Misty in the comics, so I had no idea she had a cybornetic arm. That's why I was taken aback by what happened to her. It will be interesting to see how Misty with her new arm would work on Luke Cage, because that show seems to be more grounded in realism than the others.

- Agreed, of all the supporting cast I found Karen the weakest, not for her acting skills but the lack of material she was given. She could've been the one going to the others finding out who they were and who they were connected to.

Yeah. We didn't really get to see her in her element of hunting down a story. Her scened with Foggy were ok, but her scenes with Matt haven't done anything for me since season 1 of DD. They are a bit too Clana-like.

- They did mention that the promised “empty vessel“ isn't what they got when they resurrected Elektra.

That they did, but how so? Alexandra's mindwipe worked but not completely? And to what degree? Did Elektra remember everything about her past life by the end? They left the whole thing too vague for my liking. Unless Elektra's memories were jumpstarted when she was at Matt's house and I failed to pick up on that.

- I do believe Madame Gao (still no idea what actually motivates her) may have survived, but the rest I'm pretty sure are gone.

Oh, I am almost certain she survived. I never rule her out! [emoji38]

Speaking of Kun Lun, I read an interview by the Defenders' showrunner and when he was asked why Kun Lun's disappearance wasn't brought up here, he responded that this is something that the Iron Fist show will have to address.

- Sadly I think DD3 will be the last show they film, JJ2, LC2 and IF2, possibly even Punisher 2 will all come out before we get Daredevil season 3. Daredevil had the drive and motivation to be there for the city from the start, the other 3 are reluctant, they'll help if they have to but they'd rather not. Matt sacrificing himself should push all 3 of them to embrace who they are. Jessica I thought had the most profound change just by reopening her detective agency.

Lets hope darkphoenix21 is right and DD3 starts shooting soon. No disrespect to the other 3 shows (Jessica Jones is ok in its own wacky way, Luke Cage was fantastic while Cottonmouth was around and Iron Fist has potential to be better if its titular hero matures as a personality and a fighter), but Daredevil is the driving force of this universe, IMO.

Speaking of, I read somewhere that the name "Maggie" wasn't randomly dropped in the scene where Matt wakes up. Apparently she's his mother?[/SPOILER]

There were some attempts at biased social commentary but it was very minor, so much so that it was easily overlooked with nothing but a minor cringe moment when it happened.

[SPOILER]Matt's mother's name is Maggie and she supposedly works/lives as a nun at Saint Agnes.

I agree, of all the shows I'm most awaiting Daredevil although Defenders did make me a bit more interested in Jessica Jones than I already was. Luke Cage I agree was actually best with Cottonmouth so I'm a bit worried how they'll carry on with his show after Diamondback and the Hand. And let's just hope Danny has actually matured enough to have his own series after this, but I don't want to see him taking on the role of Daredevil while Matt's out of commission (he'd still lack his own sense of purpose doing that IMO).

As for Matt killing, normally I'd agree but let's not forget he let Elektra loose on the roof vs. the minions in the finale and allowed Frank to help after Elektra fell as well as conciously throwing Nobu off the roof, every time Nobu died before one could say it was “accidental“. (I believe Matt did actually kill once in the comics, not sure if it was after Elektra's death or Karin's. Matt's a little weird in that he'll indirectly kill if the opponent has a chance to survive but he won't directly kill. That was even shown in season 1 with the russian he and Claire interrogated, Matt didn't know he survived until after Claire asked him.) Taking down the building they all could escape, including Elektra and the Hand, yet the Hand's plans would be set back months until they again freed the way to the door to Kun Lun. As for collateral damage, I'm thinking Matt's trusting the architect to have thought of that as well and planned accordingly to keep it at an absolute minimum.

I don't think Elektra's memories were jumpstarted at Matt's place, how'd she know where to find it if that was the case, but I do think that's what opened her eyes to betray Alexandra when she found the funeral slip in Matt's bible. Overall yes you're right, what Elektra knows and why is very much to vaguely explained if at all.[/SPOILER]

[Backward Galaxy]

What a slog.

Really didn't like it at all. Had to force myself to keep going towards the end. I can't believe Sigourney Weaver signed on for that. What a total waste.

Here's to hoping Punisher gets them back on track.

[TheSecretVampire]

Well, there was no actor or actress character who annoyed me so that was a huge plus! This show definitely started out very slowly and I would've liked it to be more of a faster build to the team coming together, but other than that, I really enjoyed it. Oh and Sigourney's character was very bland and flat...never once did I feel like she was a major threat on the show. By no means am I calling her a bland actress...just her character on the show fell really flat for me. It was in line with how poorly Diamondback was in Luke Cage and Harold in Iron Fist. In the end The Defenders was definitely a step up for me , compared the second half of Luke Cage and the entire run of Iron Fist.