Loved It? Hated It? What do you think of "Unchained?"

[Haggard01]

Ok you know I just thought of something on Oliver's methods in the flashbacks. Now I'm not giving this whole supposed "Oliver trying to move past his darkness" plot any ground to stand on and want it gone because of reasons I've already explained.

However in 1x20, the Home Invasion episode that Quentin said that "The Hood has sent 26 men" to the morgue.

Now I'm taking what was said in the actual show as fact so that means Oliver has killed alot less in season 1 then we have all thought. Still 26 guys is a decent size number but it's no where near Oliver killing every guy he faced.

Also let's look at who was actually on The List and died at Oliver's hand.

In 1x01, Oliver gave Adam Hunt a chance and when he didn't listen Oliver took away what was most important his money. Killing him would have been pointless because Hunt valued money a lot more.

In 1x02, he need Martin Summer's confession so that's why probably he didn't kill him.

In 1x03, For James Holder I really can't say what Oliver would have done but would have probably just tortured the guy until he was willing to confess.

In 1x04, Oliver needed to keep Jason Brodeur alive so he could get Peter Declan out of prison.

In 1x05, At the end of the episode Oliver killed Leo Muller because he had his first chance and keeping him alive would have been pointless because the guy was nothing more than a gunrunner. Looking back on it this is one of the rare times I can ever remember Oliver executing a unarmed man in cold blood in season 1.

In 1x16, the beginning Oliver killed Guillermo Barrera who was on The List in self defense.

Now in 1x07 and 1x08 Oliver tries to teach Helena restraint. Then in 1x18 Oliver wanted to bring down "The Savior" because like he said to Felicity the guy didn't have Oliver's restraint.

So put all that information together I think Oliver may be in fact closer to The Hood in methods then we think because almost every time Oliver's killed in the flashbacks has been in either defense of himself or others. The only different times off the top of my head when Oliver executed people in cold blood is Anthony Ivo and Slade with Adam Castwith but under orders in Castwith's case.

Considering how the Arrow writers have abused our trust it makes us go on edge when they do something like in this week's episode because we are not sure if the writers are going to do a massive screw up.

[JDBentz]

Ok you know I just thought of something on Oliver's methods in the flashbacks. Now I'm not giving this whole supposed "Oliver trying to move past his darkness" plot any ground to stand on and want it gone because of reasons I've already explained.

However in 1x20, the Home Invasion episode that Quentin said that "The Hood has sent 26 men" to the morgue.

Now I'm taking what was said in the actual show as fact so that means Oliver has killed alot less in season 1 then we have all thought. Still 26 guys is a decent size number but it's no where near Oliver killing every guy he faced.

Also let's look at who was actually on The List and died at Oliver's hand.

In 1x01, Oliver gave Adam Hunt a chance and when he didn't listen Oliver took away what was most important his money. Killing him would have been pointless because Hunt valued money a lot more.

In 1x02, he need Martin Summer's confession so that's why probably he didn't kill him.

In 1x03, For James Holder I really can't say what Oliver would have done but would have probably just tortured the guy until he was willing to confess.

In 1x04, Oliver needed to keep Jason Brodeur alive so he could get Peter Declan out of prison.

In 1x05, At the end of the episode Oliver killed Leo Muller because he had his first chance and keeping him alive would have been pointless because the guy was nothing more than a gunrunner. Looking back on it this is one of the rare times I can ever remember Oliver executing a unarmed man in cold blood in season 1.

In 1x16, the beginning Oliver killed Guillermo Barrera who was on The List in self defense.

Now in 1x07 and 1x08 Oliver tries to teach Helena restraint. Then in 1x18 Oliver wanted to bring down "The Savior" because like he said to Felicity the guy didn't have Oliver's restraint.

So put all that information together I think Oliver may be in fact closer to The Hood in methods then we think because almost every time Oliver's killed in the flashbacks has been in either defense of himself or others. The only different times off the top of my head when Oliver executed people in cold blood is Anthony Ivo and Slade with Adam Castwith but under orders in Castwith's case.

Considering how the Arrow writers have abused our trust it makes us go on edge when they do something like in this week's episode because we are not sure if the writers are going to do a massive screw up.

Agreed. It was pretty clear once we heard Quentin talking about how many people the Hood had killed that not everyone Oliver hit with the arrows had been killed. This sort of ties in with the whole 'darkness versus light' conversation in that Oliver didn't kill every single person, but nor was he focused on not doing a great deal of harm so he could operate 'in the light', so to speak.

[President_Luthor]

While I don't expect Ollie to ever return to his "dropping bodies" S1 mode in the series -- now that he's become a more "balanced" vigilante/striving to become one -- as a viewer, I won't accept some sort of flashback retconning that would spin it that Ollie somehow did not become as dark as we expect him to be on the road to being the Hood.

Fine, they want Ollie to be more glass-half-full now and not brooding incessantly ... but at the same time S1 is already out of the bag. There's no pretending it didn't happen or wasn't as dark/gritty etc. as it was. It's series canon. Outside of something ridiculous like a time travel/timeline fudging or some freaky magical twist, Olle was S1 Hood. This persona was a part of his journey. No amount of second-guessing by showrunners/writers/fans will change that Ollie in his first year back from the island was scratching names off a list, taking lives and operating outside the law and the norms of society.

At best, he was an anti-hero who did necessary rule-bending to achieve success against a city rotten to the core. At worst, he was an outlaw who took the law into his own hands and disregarded the law as it suited him. An uncomfortable truth when we see the progress Ollie has made after 3+ seasons, but it's something that they can't imagine away just because "he's just not that guy any more". This is the point: he was that sort of vigilante back in S1, there's no mincing his having a hit list and taking the lives he did with no legal repercussions. They shouldn't press rewind on the flashbacks and re-edit it SW Special Edition-style just to retrofit it for present-day Ollie.

I can appreciate that out in the Arrow fandom we might not want to see their chief protagonist as having flaws, self-doubt, being conflicted or being less than heroic than we want him to be. Ollie was, and in many cases still is, all these things. He is not a perfect superhero, and likely never will be by series' end. (This likely is also the legacy of the series back in S1 initially wanting to emulate the success TDK trilogy had in showcasing a conflicted and brooding anti-hero.) I can also understand that, as dark as Ollie should become in the series flashbacks, they also want to ensure Flashback Ollie doesn't appear beyond redemption or commit wrongs so offensive that he can't be forgiven -- but this is a very fine line to tread.

They need to strike a careful balance in the flashbacks between showing an Ollie that could still be redeemed, while avoiding watering down his descent into the darkness of the Hood to the point where we can't buy that Ollie could ever become the Hood.

[Somewhat related: I think Ollie got off way too easily in breaking ties with the Bratva. The dude was a freaking captain in their ranks. Something tells me the Russian mafia would not so easily let it slide that he left them. Did he just send them a coupon for two medium pizzas and call it even?]

[BkWurm1]

So put all that information together I think Oliver may be in fact closer to The Hood in methods then we think because almost every time Oliver's killed in the flashbacks has been in either defense of himself or others. The only different times off the top of my head when Oliver executed people in cold blood is Anthony Ivo and Slade with Adam Castwith but under orders in Castwith's case.

In the pilot he killed his three (I think it was three) kidnappers, one of them just because he's seen Oliver in action and Oliver didn't want him to have that knowledge. That's still pretty far from the guy we are seeing in this season's flashbacks.

[Somewhat related: I think Ollie got off way too easily in breaking ties with the Bratva. The dude was a freaking captain in their ranks. Something tells me the Russian mafia would not so easily let it slide that he left them. Did he just send them a coupon for two medium pizzas and call it even?]

The plot for season five?

[Haggard01]

In the pilot he killed his three (I think it was three) kidnappers, one of them just because he's seen Oliver in action and Oliver didn't want him to have that knowledge. That's still pretty far from the guy we are seeing in this season's flashbacks. The plot for season five?

I think it was three of them. Oliver killed those guys because first off he's already seen them kill an innocent man and figured that's what was going to happen to Tommy and him. Oliver for sure didn't have the knowledge we did that they were hired by Moira.

So operating on five years of usually every guy holding a gun or torturing him, Oliver did what he was always did up until that point of removing the threat. The whole line by Oliver of them not wanting to know his secret was after he already exposed his skills so I don't think he killed them just for that reason.

Hopefully the Bratva will be a plot for season 5, if they even get there.

[JDBentz]

I think it was three of them. Oliver killed those guys because first off he's already seen them kill an innocent man and figured that's what was going to happen to Tommy and him. Oliver for sure didn't have the knowledge we did that they were hired by Moira.

So operating on five years of usually every guy holding a gun or torturing him, Oliver did what he was always did up until that point of removing the threat. The whole line by Oliver of them not wanting to know his secret was after he already exposed his skills so I don't think he killed them just for that reason.

Hopefully the Bratva will be a plot for season 5, if they even get there.

I kinda hope they do, if only because KGBeast is who Anatoli is based on and despite claims to the contrary, they still do utilize Batman storylines/villains. Not to mention, it would give Oliver a personal enemy again (meaning he knew them before or during his time away). Darhk is obviously a personal enemy in the fact that he crippled Oliver's fiance, but not quite on the same level of 'personal' that Malcolm and Slade have been. Ra's was perhaps the most distant. It'd be nice if Season 5 we saw the symmetry of "Oliver infiltrating/joining the Bratva in the flashbacks" alongside "the Bratva finally having their vengeance on their traitorous captain" in the present, along with the enemy being someone who respected Oliver at one time.

Oh, and the CW is hardly a ratings giant, so unless Arrow slips down to just above a million or less viewers, I don't see them absolutely cancelling Arrow.

[Haggard01]

I kinda hope they do, if only because KGBeast is who Anatoli is based on and despite claims to the contrary, they still do utilize Batman storylines/villains. Not to mention, it would give Oliver a personal enemy again (meaning he knew them before or during his time away). Darhk is obviously a personal enemy in the fact that he crippled Oliver's fiance, but not quite on the same level of 'personal' that Malcolm and Slade have been. Ra's was perhaps the most distant. It'd be nice if Season 5 we saw the symmetry of "Oliver infiltrating/joining the Bratva in the flashbacks" alongside "the Bratva finally having their vengeance on their traitorous captain" in the present, along with the enemy being someone who respected Oliver at one time.

Oh, and the CW is hardly a ratings giant, so unless Arrow slips down to just above a million or less viewers, I don't see them absolutely cancelling Arrow.

That would be an interesting story line. Also another thing it would do is bring back a parallel between the flashbacks and present day like what people enjoyed so much from season 2.

True on the CW hardly being a ratings giant.

[BkWurm1]

Well, they could do both Bratva in the flashbacks and in the present. Making it parallel should be not to hard that way.

[DoubleDevil]

So much potential with Roy's return and Thea's bloodlust but that all has to be overshadowed with Felicity, sorry as much as I'd like to I can't overcome the ever growing dislike for the way the showrunners are writing Arrow. We may have gotten away from the extremely sappy season 3 but it still revolves way to much around a supporting character (regardless if she's a fan favorite) that is becoming more and more annoying to me the more screen time she gets.

[Haggard01]

So much potential with Roy's return and Thea's bloodlust but that all has to be overshadowed with Felicity, sorry as much as I'd like to I can't overcome the ever growing dislike for the way the showrunners are writing Arrow. We may have gotten away from the extremely sappy season 3 but it still revolves way to much around a supporting character (regardless if she's a fan favorite) that is becoming more and more annoying to me the more screen time she gets.

Agreed. While they kind of have fixed the problem of whiny Felicity for lack of a better term that was in season 3 they can't help but write her like she is the main star of the show. I remember in 4x11 Oliver actually had stopped to ask "What Felicty wanted him to do now" because apparently the man who has had almost 9 year of fighting for survival needs Felicity to tell him what to do.