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Does this mean Jonathan's warning in Void was meaningless?

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  • #16
    Before Jonathan died, he found out that Lionel knew Clark's secret. He was probably making an educated guess.

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    • #17
      Well, I think that Jonathan's death was essential for Lionel's transformation.

      I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but I have this theory that it wasn't just Jor-El's influence that made Lionel turn a new leaf. I think that in "Reckoning", Lionel had some sort of plan to blackmail Jonathan, or, if not full-on blackmail, at least try to influence the Kents in a manipulative way so that he could get closer to influencing Clark (by this point he pretty much knew his secret).

      But Jonathan died to protect his son. I think this could've made Lionel feel guilty, especially knowing that Clark needed someone like Jonathan to help guide him with his powers. As Lionel continued to get closer to the Kents, he was inspired by them, and wanted to genuinely help rather than exploit Clark. With Jonathan gone, Lionel could try to redeem himself for how badly he'd screwed up Lex by filling in as a fatherly figure. Jor-El's influence probably helped him to see this as well.

      But, in a nutshell, if Jonathan hadn't died that way, Lionel may have continued to try to blackmail them and wouldn't have gotten close to the Kents, which is, in my opinion, the ultimate reason for his turn-around.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by All about Clark
        But he did BETRAY Clark by putting him in a Kryptonite Cage. Lionel almost got Clark killled. Jonathan had every reason to warn Clark about Lionel, because Lionel's methods are always wrong regardless of his intent.
        Supposedly Lionel did not betray him because he did that to protect him (we still don't know why).

        erikamichelle614 earlier in this thread said that he probably put him there because he felt that someone would get their hands on the device in Zurich and control Clark to be evil. This may be true, but it needs to be verified.

        So Lionel didn't betray Clark (he had his reasons for putting him in the cage) but didn't know that his guy would try to kill Clark (similar to Ollie not knowing one of his guys would try to kill Lex in Sneeze). I refuse to believe that Lionel went evil for one episode and then reverted back to helping Clark the very next episode. We saw in his message how it said he was serving Clark. So this to me is a plothole until it's explained.

        ----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

        Originally posted by migo
        Before Jonathan died, he found out that Lionel knew Clark's secret. He was probably making an educated guess.
        But the thing I'm talking about is after he died when Clark's spirit met with Jonathan's in Void. Jonathan was giving hints that he obviously knew about Clark's future as Superman. He should have also known that Lionel would turn out good. Unless the warning was just for Clark to watch out because wherever Lionel goes, trouble seems to follow him. The only problem is, he didn't really put it that way.
        Last edited by xrayvision; 04-23-2008, 08:36 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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        • #19
          Originally posted by MozartRequiem
          Well, I think that Jonathan's death was essential for Lionel's transformation.

          I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but I have this theory that it wasn't just Jor-El's influence that made Lionel turn a new leaf. I think that in "Reckoning", Lionel had some sort of plan to blackmail Jonathan, or, if not full-on blackmail, at least try to influence the Kents in a manipulative way so that he could get closer to influencing Clark (by this point he pretty much knew his secret).

          But Jonathan died to protect his son. I think this could've made Lionel feel guilty, especially knowing that Clark needed someone like Jonathan to help guide him with his powers. As Lionel continued to get closer to the Kents, he was inspired by them, and wanted to genuinely help rather than exploit Clark. With Jonathan gone, Lionel could try to redeem himself for how badly he'd screwed up Lex by filling in as a fatherly figure. Jor-El's influence probably helped him to see this as well.

          But, in a nutshell, if Jonathan hadn't died that way, Lionel may have continued to try to blackmail them and wouldn't have gotten close to the Kents, which is, in my opinion, the ultimate reason for his turn-around.
          EXACTLY! I believe this as well. I believe Lionel learned about Clark's secret sort of with Jor-el's download in Commencement, but Lionel was still the MB. He tried to blackmail Jonathon to control Clark, pushing his heart and killing poor John Kent. His death, its affect on Martha and Clark had an effect on Lionel. It changed him. Episode "Mercy" was his turning point. It was there that he fully realized I think he was bad and then from there made an effort to do good. Although, what he considered good, in the Luthor world, wasn't exactly. Hence forcing Lana to marry Lex in season 6, and putting Clark in a cage in Season 7. John Kent died for Clark, John Kent died to change Lionel, who also died...for Clark.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MozartRequiem
            Well, I think that Jonathan's death was essential for Lionel's transformation.

            I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but I have this theory that it wasn't just Jor-El's influence that made Lionel turn a new leaf. I think that in "Reckoning", Lionel had some sort of plan to blackmail Jonathan, or, if not full-on blackmail, at least try to influence the Kents in a manipulative way so that he could get closer to influencing Clark (by this point he pretty much knew his secret).

            But Jonathan died to protect his son. I think this could've made Lionel feel guilty, especially knowing that Clark needed someone like Jonathan to help guide him with his powers. As Lionel continued to get closer to the Kents, he was inspired by them, and wanted to genuinely help rather than exploit Clark. With Jonathan gone, Lionel could try to redeem himself for how badly he'd screwed up Lex by filling in as a fatherly figure. Jor-El's influence probably helped him to see this as well.

            But, in a nutshell, if Jonathan hadn't died that way, Lionel may have continued to try to blackmail them and wouldn't have gotten close to the Kents, which is, in my opinion, the ultimate reason for his turn-around.
            I actually think that you make a lot of sense. Lionel did seem to have another agenda before Jonathan died and once it was derailed, he seemed to change the course of his life. But the thing this doesn't explain is how Jonathan in Void knew Clark's ultimate destiny. By that same regard, he should have known Lionel's ultimate destiny of turning out good. Just like Lillian knew Lex would kill 1000's of people in his lifetime.

            So at best, I could assume that Jonathan's warning was to be taken by Clark during Lionel's transition period where there was danger surrounding him that also affected Martha (like in Mercy & Oracle).

            ----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

            Originally posted by TheRealClarkKent
            EXACTLY! I believe this as well. I believe Lionel learned about Clark's secret sort of with Jor-el's download in Commencement, but Lionel was still the MB. He tried to blackmail Jonathon to control Clark, pushing his heart and killing poor John Kent. His death, its affect on Martha and Clark had an effect on Lionel. It changed him. Episode "Mercy" was his turning point. It was there that he fully realized I think he was bad and then from there made an effort to do good. Although, what he considered good, in the Luthor world, wasn't exactly. Hence forcing Lana to marry Lex in season 6, and putting Clark in a cage in Season 7. John Kent died for Clark, John Kent died to change Lionel, who also died...for Clark.
            That was very well stated.
            Last edited by xrayvision; 04-23-2008, 08:41 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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            • #21
              Seriously, I just watched "Void" again from Season 5, Lionel is definitely the MB. He talks, He walks and he decieves like the MB. John Kent told Clark he died protecting him from Lionel Luthor. And he's right, he did. Lionel was on track to control him, to ruin his life and take Martha as prize it would seem. Clark's goodness from "Transference" debunked Lionel from his evil but it soon wore off. Jor-el's download from "Commencement" gave Lionel the secret, but it gave him more than that. It gave him everything, the Kryptonian database so to speak. Even then however, Lionel was determined.
              It was a slow progression, but soon enough Lionel would change. I think it happened in "Mercy". Just watch it. When Clark caught the elevator and saved Lionel and Martha. That was it I believe, when Lionel saw Clark use his powers to save him, that flipped the switch finally for Lionel. At least, it flipped the switch to make him try to do good, but obviously...all the sliver from the snake couldn't be expunged. But Lionel did transform. Through the Kents, through Superman. And to an effect, when John Kent spoke to Clark about how he would inspire so many people as a symbol in "Void", he was also talking about one person specifically: Lionel Luthor.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by TheRealClarkKent
                Seriously, I just watched "Void" again from Season 5, Lionel is definitely the MB. He talks, He walks and he decieves like the MB. John Kent told Clark he died protecting him from Lionel Luthor. And he's right, he did. Lionel was on track to control him, to ruin his life and take Martha as prize it would seem. Clark's goodness from "Transference" debunked Lionel from his evil but it soon wore off. Jor-el's download from "Commencement" gave Lionel the secret, but it gave him more than that. It gave him everything, the Kryptonian database so to speak. Even then however, Lionel was determined.
                It was a slow progression, but soon enough Lionel would change. I think it happened in "Mercy". Just watch it. When Clark caught the elevator and saved Lionel and Martha. That was it I believe, when Lionel saw Clark use his powers to save him, that flipped the switch finally for Lionel. At least, it flipped the switch to make him try to do good, but obviously...all the sliver from the snake couldn't be expunged. But Lionel did transform. Through the Kents, through Superman. And to an effect, when John Kent spoke to Clark about how he would inspire so many people as a symbol in "Void", he was also talking about one person specifically: Lionel Luthor.
                I went back and caught the words he said to Clark. I think you and MozartRequiem are right. He did die protecting Clark from Lionel. Had he not died, Lionel would have done something very evil. But I think whatever happened to Lionel happened in Mercy as you said. I think after Clark saved him and Martha in the elevator, he felt the same thing Perry White did in Perry (guilt at how he could do to Clark was he was planning to do).

                It actually happened before Mercy. You could see he did not want Lex to tell Martha about his meeting with Jonathan in Vengeance when Lex used it against him to keep him out of Luthorcorp. That was the episode after Reckoning. In his next appearance, he says "Your secret is safe with me, Kal-El" after using his MB ways to get Martha to trust him. There's no question he bribed that guy to drop that package off to Martha. I don't think he was a bad guy anymore---just using his MB ways to gain trust since he didn't know how else to get it. After Cyborg, his next appearance was in Mercy, where he was definitely changed. And I don't think Lionel knew the gun wasn't loaded. Lincoln Cole obviously wanted to kill him and wasn't part of a sick game Lionel made up.

                The words don't really suggest Lionel's future, so they do actually fit. His words were actually about the past and how he protected Clark from Lionel in his death. And his death changed Lionel. He said Clark had to leave to keep Martha & the world safe. But he didn't say safe from Lionel. I think that was the problem. The way he said made it seem like he meant to keep the world safe from Lionel Luthor, but we know that's not true because it is Lex who was to be the villian in the end. Lionel just happened to switch teams and join Clark's side. And he was right about Martha because even though Lionel changed his ways, Martha was in trouble in Mercy.
                Last edited by xrayvision; 04-23-2008, 09:56 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by xrayvision
                  So Lionel didn't betray Clark (he had his reasons for putting him in the cage) but didn't know that his guy would try to kill Clark (similar to Ollie not knowing one of his guys would try to kill Lex in Sneeze). I refuse to believe that Lionel went evil for one episode and then reverted back to helping Clark the very next episode. We saw in his message how it said he was serving Clark. So this to me is a plothole until it's explained.
                  I do see it as a betrayal. Lionel used Clark to get the proof from Patricia that Lionel had killed the people of Veritas. His motives in his mind were good, however, Lionel's famous for doing bad things with good intentions. I think Lionel reasoned that he couldn't protect Clark if he was in jail for murder. By the very fact that Lionel used Clark in this matter is a BETRAYAL, however, without the ill intent.

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                  • #24
                    We can never be sure if Lionel was helping Clark in the beginning. I believe that Lionel was getting closer to Clark to keep an eye on him.

                    I just want to add that I was watching Vengence tonight on DVD and one of the final scenes foreshadows Lionel's death in Descent.

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                    • #25
                      I just stumbled onto this thread by accident and I, too, wanted so badly the gap left in "VOID" to be filled in. I think the fact that "Mercy" was when Lionel truly changed is a great way to think about it. Think about it. If Jonathan hadn't told Clark about Lionel, if the veents in Void didn't happen, then perhaps Lionel was going to do something terrible that would've cost the Kents, Lex, and possibly the whole world something valuable. Perhaps THAT was when he made that kryptonian cage, perhaps he truly was trying to control Clark, perhaps he was going to "Drown everyone in a pool of their own blood." As Jonathan Kent stated. But after the events in Mercy and that heated confrontation between CK and Lionel he changed his ways. Jonathan Kent might've actually saved all of them from Lionel. What a thought!

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                      • #26
                        To me it's pretty obvious that Lionel isn't all changed by the time "Void" came on. If he had, then why on earth would he go sneaking around like a typical Luthor and upsetting Jonathan so violently when he could have made his intentions clear before things got out of hand.

                        Anyway about the topic... I kinda looked at it from Jonathan's point of view. The way Lionel came at him with the photo of whatever there's no wonder why he'd thought Lionel was blackmailing him again. Wether Lionel had good intentions or not, that's not what Jon saw.

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                        • #27
                          I remember when i saw that piece of paper that Lionel held in his hand, it looked to me like that ship that Clark came to earth in (saw the paper from behind, but it was somewhat transparent)

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