Did Lionel redeem himself?

[smallvillelogan]

Lionel is supposed to represent "evil redeemed", clearly intended to be a contrast for Lex's character who has gone past the point of no return and is now forever beyond redemption. Lionel may have done a lot of bad in the past, but that was all clearly nothing in comparison to what Lex will do or try to do. Lex is (or will be) someone who would kill millions/billions of people if it suits his purposes -- Lionel was never that far gone. (ie. Lex really is the one true "villain of the story".)

As for when Lionel started to change, as others have said the pivotal event was likely in Transference during the time his body was inhabited by Clark's soul/spirit/essence/whatever. One could say Clark's presence didn't just heal Lionel's body, but his soul as well.

Yeah I agree that Lionel began to change when he switched bodies with Clark. It re-awakened him to the feeling of being truly good again inside.

At that point, I'm sure Lionel was pretty sure that Clark was the Traveler, after realizing all of the powers that Clark had. It's a convenience that shortly thereafter Jor-El took control of the situation and changed Lionel's perspective as to what to do with Clark- for I'm sure that Lionel would have exposed him or used him for his own purposes sooner or later if Jor-El hadn't changed his intentions with Clark from using/exposing him to protecting him as a father figure.

[All about Clark]

I was starting to feel the redemption of Lionel until he caged Clark in Traveler. As far as I'm concerned, he lost that redemption in the act of using Clark to keep from going to jail for the Queen/Swan murders. And in doing so, he almost lost the person he was trying to protect. So I feel he fell short in the redemption department.

That doesn't mean he didn't die in peace, I think that he did. He felt redeemed even if I don't agree with it.

[smallvillelogan]

I was starting to feel the redemption of Lionel until he caged Clark in Traveler. As far as I'm concerned, he lost that redemption in the act of using Clark to keep from going to jail for the Queen/Swan murders. And in doing so, he almost lost the person he was trying to protect. So I feel he fell short in the redemption department.

That doesn't mean he didn't die in peace, I think that he did. He felt redeemed even if I don't agree with it.

What about trying to warn Chloe about whatever is coming at the end of Veritas, and not revealing who the Traveler is to Lex, instead trying to convince Lex that he was the Traveler, at the start of Descent? I thought his final pleas that night were all good.

I also don't think that he imprisoned Clark because he was trying to cover up his murders of the Queens and Virgil Swann. I think he panicked when he started to receive the letters, worried because he was afraid that they were related to the "something terrible is coming."

[All about Clark]

The threat of the letters stated proof of Lionel's killings. Watch the episode again, it clearly states this. That is what wigged out Lionel and made him use Clark to get the proof back. As soon as Patricia was knocked out, Lionel grabbed for the proof she brought and told Pierce to take Clark back. That WAS the whole point.

Warning Chloe BTW, was not a success either. She knew no more than before. I don't find Lionel's last actions being worth redemption.

As I said, Lionel would have been redeemed to me if he hadn't almost killed Clark in Traveler. If Kara was never sent to Earth, Clark would have died due to Lionel's actions.

[cLlLc]

Redeemed

Clark was locked in the cage before Lionel was able to positively identify that is was Patricia Swann sending those letters.

I think even though he never came out and directly said it to Clark the reason that Lionel locked him in that cage was that he was afraid that someone had access to the information locked in that box in Zurich. If that were the case then they would be in control of someone with the ability to cause a massive amount of devastation on the entire world.

The only reason Lionel wants to stay out of prison is to protect Clark. Not for the sole fact he would do anything not to go to prison again. I think from season 4, episode Scare, what Lionel said to the Warden still rings true - he never believed he should have been released from prison in the first place. His meaning in life is to protect Clark at all costs, not protect himself.

Remember that we knew beforehand that what was in that box unlocked the secret of controlling the "Traveler", but Clark didn't know what this box was or what it meant to him; that is until he received Lionel's message left to him after his death.


Why didn't Lionel just tell Clark? You can tell that Lionel suffers from a massive amount of internal guilt (especially towards the end) by observing Lionel when the camera is on him, but he's alone. His facial expressions change to sorrow and he doesn't hold himself as he does when he is around others - his shoulders slouch, he bows his head etc. If he were to come out and tell Clark about that box he would also have to tell Clark about Veritas and then admit to the fact that he was once a murdering sociopath hell bent on absolute power.


Can you imagine having a son or someone you love as a son and having to confess that to him?

The threat of the letters stated proof of Lionel's killings. Watch the episode again, it clearly states this. That is what wigged out Lionel and made him use Clark to get the proof back. As soon as Patricia was knocked out, Lionel grabbed for the proof she brought and told Pierce to take Clark back. That WAS the whole point.

Warning Chloe BTW, was not a success either. She knew no more than before. I don't find Lionel's last actions being worth redemption.

As I said, Lionel would have been redeemed to me if he hadn't almost killed Clark in Traveler. If Kara was never sent to Earth, Clark would have died due to Lionel's actions.

[Eri-El]

I think that the Scene where Clark discovers Lionel's Kryptonian Flashlight Will lead me to believe that to Clark, Lionel redeemed himself and truely repented.

[Kevin24]

I don't know if he did or didn't. Throughout the whole series I didn't know which side he was on the whole time and I rarely trusted him. Sure he protected Clark's secret but how many people did he harm doing that?

Yes he was on Clark's side but even in his death I don't know if he was truly a good guy or not . I like to think he did redeem himself just because of the fact that he tried to change and at times I do believe he did.

At times he did show remorse over what he did over his life , but I'm still up in the air.

[Ares]

sure why not..

[Serynarpc]

Lionel's message for Clark clearly stated like all humans, he made mistakes and has regrets about his life, but that Clark redeemed his life. All people make mistakes- being a ruthless and rich business man gave Lionel the means to make even greater mistakes than most men could pull off.

It was clear to me when Lionel saw Clark being tortured that he never wished harm to Clark.

[borednow]

Yes he did, I think that was what the smile was about as he fell.

[All about Clark]

I think that semi-smile was meant to show he was content that Lex did not get the key. If he knew Lex did indeed get the key, he wouldn't have had that semi-smile.

[smallvillelogan]

I think that semi-smile was meant to show he was content that Lex did not get the key. If he knew Lex did indeed get the key, he wouldn't have had that semi-smile.

I think he was smiling because he was relieved that he at least ended the last couple of years of his life with some redeeming value- protecting Clark and his secret.

[Luthorsrock123]

The last few episodes seem to imply that he may be. The whole thing with keeping Clark prisoner in the Kryptonite cage - I interpret that as a last, self-destructive return to Lionel's old ways.

It would seem he was tryng to protect Clark even when he put Clark in the Kryptonite cage. I think he willl still do ruthless things, but he has a pporpose for good in the ruthless things he does if that makes sense. And don't forget he is the vessel of Jorel, & can Jorel can be ruthless to (I mean he threatended to kill Jonathen Kent for goodness sake!) , but stil has a greater porpose.

[Aurora Moon]

To me that just says Jor-el was evil too from the start. after all think of the "rule them with strength" crap he kept on telling Clark... and how he tortured Clark by lasering a S into Clark. Both Lionel and Jor-el seems to think the end justifies the means, but it doesn't.

You can be a ruthless good guy, but not if you killed or tortured people the way they did. Remember, Jor-El have killed before too.... And just because Jor-El was "right" about a lot of events turning out the way it did, doesn't make him a good guy. It just means he was a bad guy with all of the info who choose to hold on to all the info until the very last minute because nobody had thought to ask him all the questions before.

So because Jor-El possessed Lionel, it didn't really turn Lionel into a good guy. Instead all it did was re-configure the wires in Lionel's head a little bit so that he would be less of a threat to Clark. But deep down, he was still the same old ruthless Lionel.... and that side of him were only allowed to come out to play if it suited Jor-El's purposes.

[Jennsen]

Nope, he didn't. If anything, he became even more loathsome.