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Did Lionel redeem himself?

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  • Did Lionel redeem himself?

    One of the most interesting character arcs, IMO, is that of Lionel Luthor. In the first few seasons he was unreservedly, admittedly, and gloriously Evil. He was the Bad Guy incarnate.

    Then, as the Lex arc progressed, and Lex became more Evil, Lionel became less so. Is that because he saw himself in Lex, and saw how awful it was? Is that because he recognized the demons in himself, and wanted to prevent Lex from the same agonies he (Lionel) had faced? We've seen that Lionel does love Lex in some twisted way (he didn't kill juvenile Lex after he thought that Lex killed Julian in his cradle) - is he trying to protect Lex in some way? Or, does turning to the side of Good make him weak?

    And then, as Lionel became the vessel of Jor-El - boy, that came out of left field. So now, does Lionel really have good feelings, or are they reflections (or imprintings or whatever) of what Jor-El feels (presumably) for Clark? Could Lionel be good on his own, without the alien influence?

    The last few episodes seem to imply that he may be. The whole thing with keeping Clark prisoner in the Kryptonite cage - I interpret that as a last, self-destructive return to Lionel's old ways. And he realizes it's a mistake and that he's lost his chance with Clark. That's why he's been so upset and frazzled the last few episodes - he has thrown away his opportunities. And I think he knew that, and it preyed on him. Yes, Lionel Luthor developed a conscience.

    And that's what the most interesting thing is. The characters:

    1) Clark - always Good, has his moments when he feels unhappy or weak or mopey, but in the end, always gets off his ass and saves the world

    2) Lex - a wounded boy, grows up, has numerous chances to choose the good and consistently chooses the bad, becomes Evil

    3) And Lionel - chose to be Bad as a young man. Bad through his adulthood. Meets Clark Kent, slowly turns away from the path of Evil. But still fascinating in that we wonder -
    a) Is he consistently choosing to be Good, or is it all a facade? He is the master of manipulation, after all.
    b) Could he really become Good? Does he have too much sin on his soul?
    c) Would he have chosen to turn to the path of Good (even if he doesn't make it all the way) if it hadn't been for Clark Kent? (CK = Superman later, who will be an inspiration for the world).

    What makes you change? What makes you turn away from a path that you've spent your life on? And, when you've been on a path for a long time (say, a lifetime), is it even possible to retrace your steps and choose a new path?

    So what the writers are showing, and John Glover most of all through his nuanced portrayals over the past seven seasons, is that Lionel maybe, possibly, could be redeemed. Or, rather, Lionel could redeem himself. The "turning away from the path of sin" and Lionel Luthor is a topic I'll always wonder about.

    Wisely, JG and the writers have left it ambiguous. Lionel Luthor's (possible) redemption of his soul will always be a matter of debate.

    Great thanks to John Glover for turning what could have been a cardboard villain into the complex, irritating, fascinating character we've known and loved (or hated) for the past seven seasons. You've added immensely to Smallville, JG. We'll miss you.

  • #2
    I like Clark want to find some truth to his redemption. He was still a bastard up until Transference when some of Clark's goodness impressed itself on him. Yeah it wore off, which gives all the haters plenty of room to say it was all fake, but I want to think it allowed him the opportunity to make the right choice for himself once he saw what life could be like without the darkness

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    • #3
      Getting healed a cause for good?

      I like Clark want to find some truth to his redemption. He was still a bastard up until Transference when some of Clark's goodness impressed itself on him. Yeah it wore off but I want to think it allowed him to make the right choice for himself.
      One of the things I really wonder from "Transference" is how much of Lionel's change is due to the sheer relief of getting a reprieve from his death sentence (that unspecified liver disease, dontcha remember) and how much was due to CK.

      I think if I got a miraculous cure from my terminal disease I'd be re-examining my life.

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      • #4
        Lionel's character progress is a mess. He's evil and then good and evil again. It's confusing what he really stands for even after becoming Jor-El's vessel he still has those not-so-good scheme.

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        • #5
          Y'know, I've looked back at the series, and it's actually somewhat difficult to call Lionel 'evil.' Was he 'good?' Certainly not. He was ruthless, violent, cruel, and manipulative. But it's hard to find him actual doing 'evil' things. The only, real evidence we had was that he hired Morgan Edge to kill his parents (yes it's horrible), but we also know his parents were abusive. But in the first few seasons, there's level 3, and that's about it (that I can remember). It seems to be he really starts to change when he hires Martha as an assistant. I'd like think she also had an affect on him

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          • #6
            "Y'know, I've looked back at the series, and it's actually somewhat difficult to call Lionel 'evil.' Was he 'good?' Certainly not. He was ruthless, violent, cruel, and manipulative. But it's hard to find him actual doing 'evil' things. The only, real evidence we had was that he hired Morgan Edge to kill his parents (yes it's horrible), but we also know his parents were abusive. But in the first few seasons, there's level 3, and that's about it (that I can remember). It seems to be he really starts to change when he hires Martha as an assistant. I'd like think she also had an affect on him."

            Until season three, I'd probably agree with you. Lionel was much more ruthless and unscrupulous than "evil" (well, "Prodigal" started showing signs of "evil" though when he tried to kill his own son, illigitimate or not). But season three really showed that there was a lot more "evil" and darkness to Lionel than that. He had his own son committed to an asylum, electroshocked his brain, even when he knew it could turn him into a vegetable, simply to cover his tracks. He drugged him and made him lose his mind. He had Clark taken hostage to figure out his secret. He had the Kent farm raided and nearly destroyed to find the key. He tried to destroy Lex and Clark's friendship. He had Dr. Foster killed. Finally, the season culminated with him attempting to blow up Chloe, and POISON LEX! If that doesn't scream "evil", I'm not sure what does.

            But as far as his change, I agree that he has redeemed himself. I think he's one of the most inspiring characters, because he proves that even the most rotten people can change, IF THEY WANT TO. I think that's the point. Sure, he became Jor-El's vessel. But Jor-El did not fully change him. HE had to make that decision himself, I think. He also didn't fully turn to "good" until the end of season five, I think. I think he was intending to use Clark's secret for his own purposes, but being around the Kents helped inspire him to be a better man.

            "Lionel's character progress is a mess. He's evil and then good and evil again. It's confusing what he really stands for even after becoming Jor-El's vessel he still has those not-so-good scheme."

            I can see your point here, but in the end, I think they made it seem consistent, even if it didn't seem so at the time. Go back and rewatch the past few seasons, and you can see that Lionel was teetering between good and evil. If you take my interpretation in mind (that he was plotting to use Clark's secret for a while until he started to change thanks to Martha and Clark's influence) then his actions in season five make sense, and the following actions in season six does as well. This season, we saw that even though he still can be selfish and horrible and ruthless, he is not "evil" the way he was before, and truly wanted to help Clark. He died for him, and I think that says something about how much he has progressed.

            Excellent job to the writers on his character, and to JG. He truly is a remarkable actor, and I hope his career following "Smallville" will be amazing!

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            • #7
              I think while Clark represents an idealist character where in a black and white world he always does the right thing, the thing for justice, no matter what the cost. Lex is generally portrayed as doing the wrong thing, selfishly ....lionel is the grey area....he does bad things to accomplish good things...he is a realist...

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              • #8
                For me, Lionel was his best as evil and under-handed. The good Lionel, or the Vessel-Lionel never really did it for me. Plus they changed his character around so much that there was way too much contradiction going on for me to really appreciate it anymore. He was still a great character though, and I think I will miss him.

                I miss the family moments of Clark, Martha and Jonathan. The only character they've left me to cling onto now is Chloe. Lex isn't going to be around much longer, and there's no need to worry about Clark, because he's obviously in it for the long-haul. Every other character I feel I could do without.

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                • #9
                  Lionel has been a tortured character. Lex has hated him (did Lionel bring that on himself?), his family is virtually gone, even if his millions remain. Friends (to a degree) with Martha after Jonathon's demise, but never closer, in fact has he been close to anyone? After Transference you could say he was closer to Clark than anyone, and perhaps a change of perspective brought a degree of change in him. Jor-El certainly has had an influence, though when Lionel states all his connections with Jor-El are severed we see him writing Kryptonian symbols. He's like a heroin addict who wants to quit, but can't get away from that needle. There's no redemption in the green K cage, that was a cruel act, even if he did not envision the keeper torturing Clark by turning up the heat. Lionel has seen what it might have been to be a different person, though I question he could have even been one. His release was when he was falling out of the window, his personal demons over he merely smiled calmly as he fell to his death. Redeemed? No, I don't think so.

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                  • #10
                    Nobody can truly be redeemed from nearly a lifetime of wickedness. But as he has been trying to watch over Clark the last two seasons, he at least earns some major good points.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by REebee52
                      Y'know, I've looked back at the series, and it's actually somewhat difficult to call Lionel 'evil.' Was he 'good?' Certainly not. He was ruthless, violent, cruel, and manipulative. But it's hard to find him actual doing 'evil' things. The only, real evidence we had was that he hired Morgan Edge to kill his parents (yes it's horrible), but we also know his parents were abusive. But in the first few seasons, there's level 3, and that's about it (that I can remember). It seems to be he really starts to change when he hires Martha as an assistant. I'd like think she also had an affect on him
                      I think what he did was considered evil. He had people killed just as Lex is doing now, he experimented on people, bankrupted them without conscience, cheated and lied, fried his own sons brain with the risk of parylisis to cover his own butt, etc, etc. That's my definition of evil. Did he redeem himself later? In my eyes, yes.

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                      • #12
                        Well, If George W. Bush is the Decider, Maybe He's the Redeemer too. So Only Dubyuh, in his infinate wisdom, can really say if he's redeemed.

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                        • #13
                          Lionel is supposed to represent "evil redeemed", clearly intended to be a contrast for Lex's character who has gone past the point of no return and is now forever beyond redemption. Lionel may have done a lot of bad in the past, but that was all clearly nothing in comparison to what Lex will do or try to do. Lex is (or will be) someone who would kill millions/billions of people if it suits his purposes -- Lionel was never that far gone. (ie. Lex really is the one true "villain of the story".)

                          As for when Lionel started to change, as others have said the pivotal event was likely in Transference during the time his body was inhabited by Clark's soul/spirit/essence/whatever. One could say Clark's presence didn't just heal Lionel's body, but his soul as well. It's sort of like that movie Powder, when the hunter felt what the dying deer felt -- after that he could never hunt again. And in this case, after experiencing what true goodness felt like, Lionel could never be evil again.

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                          • #14
                            According to the religion with the most believers in America, redemption is there for the asking all the time and there is only 1 unforgivable sin and it is not lying, cheating, or murder. Lionel could very well be redeemed spiritually whether viewers like it or not.

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                            • #15
                              Lionel will never fully redeemed himself. Underneath he is still the same person, its just his purpose has change but the way he goes about it has not chance. Note: Traveler

                              There was an episode last season that Martha was talking about Lionel and her not truly trusting him. It is in the latter season.

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