I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask this question, but isn't what Braniac did to Lana the same thing he did to Dax-ur? Does that mean that Dax-ur may still be alive but is being controlled by Braniac?
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What they have done to lana.
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And, to adress the idea of the topic. I for one don't think it was too much. Things a lot worse happened on the show than a character feeling pain and not being able to express it (if THIS small bit shocked you, try watching Awake). It wasn't even horrible unbearable pain. It's not like she was being chopped to pieces. Her hand was a bit boiled, big whoop. I'm only 19 and that happened to me 3 times.
I also want to ask a quick question, no meannes intended. The people who are shocked by this. Are you shocked because this happened? Or are you shocked cause this happened to Lana? I don't mean to generalise here... far from it... but I'm pretty sure that 50% of the people shocked, couldn't care less if this was Lois we're talking about .The Lois fans would be the ones replying that they are shocked, myself included. I admit it. I favor some characters over others. I'm sad when something bad happens to a character I like and happy when it happens to someone I hate or simply dislike. This is becuase they are only characters on a TV show. Not real people. I judge what happens to them by how much I like the character, not by how right or wrong it is.
There are a plethora of evil deeds done by or as result of Brainiac's or other's actions. Lana is not the only one who has suffered at his hands. And a lot of the other characters, as I've just noted, have had disturbing things happen to them. I think what gets people is the manner in which this was done. When they showed Brainiac attacking Dax-Ur, the camera didn't focus on him for long, but we saw full-on what happened to Lana.
Was it disturbing in some way? Sure, it's a main character getting hurt, and a prolonged suffering at that. However, it IS just a character. And in order for Brainiac to REALLY force Clark/Kara's hand, he had to do something drastic, didn't he? And what could be more drastic than doing what he did to Lana? Brainiac knows Clark's weaknesses and he took full advantage of that. No, I myself didn't jump up and down for joy or clap or anything like that when I saw what happened to Lana, it was a sad scene, but I AM ready for them to part ways and for Clark to continute on to his destiny.Last edited by WickedJenn; 04-01-2008, 11:01 AM.Comment
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Bravo, Rosetta! Perfectly well stated. The overuse of violence on SV (including the tiring overuse of GreenK) clearly indicates that the PTB have run out of creative ideas. So all that remains is to appeal to the lowest and most primitive form of entertainment: violence for violence´s sake. (Sex is much more preferrable when you run out of ideas. But the sick reality is that many people are more shocked about naked boobs than about meaningless violence.) Creative authors know how to create even high levels of suspense with a minimal dose of violence.Comment
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I think if Lana would have only had her mind taken from her and made catatonic we wouldn't be having this spirited debate. We would still be concerned for her but not as strongly. The fact that she is in constant excruciating pain is the part that me and others find so troubling. The writers could have left that part out and still had an effective plot device. The pain thing was just overkill and unnecessarily disturbing.Comment
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Who said that Brainiac isn't lying about how much Lana is suffering.I think he was just saying that so Clark will feel even more guilty if that is can be possible.I think she can't feel anything,he jammed all her nervous system.She's like a robot.Comment
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I highly doubt it. How would that be explained to the viewer? Would Braniac say to Clark "You know how I said Lana is in excruciating pain? Gotcha!"Comment
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i understand how disturbed people who but just remember its a TV show. KK is not really in pain lolComment
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May be you want to worry about a fictional character that's fine,it's your opinion but,let others have their own idea.The only argument that you state is she is in excruciating pain because Brainiac said so,it could be a lie too.Brainiac would say anything to pick on Clark and he knew that Lana is Clark's biggest weakness even more than green k.I'm pretty sure he was exagerated about her condition.After all only him know what he is really doing to Lana and knowing how Smallville's writters work over the years,when Lana will wake up from her catatonic state,she won't remember anything.So none would be totally right or wrong on this.Last edited by Sweetie; 04-02-2008, 06:13 AM.Comment
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I don't personally buy the "they are just fictional characters so it doesn't matter" argument. If you watch any piece of fiction with this attitude, then it kind of defeats the purpose. Watching a piece of fiction with the attitude that they are just "just fictional characters, so none of this matters" seems to me like it would ruin any enjoyment... but thats just me.
Of course they are fictional characters played by actors, but they are characters you are supposed to empathize with and feel for. They are characters with whom (by watching the show), you share their life experiences. It seems odd that some people are moved to tears in some scenes, while others have the attitude of "its just a show". I'm not saying the latter people don't have a right to that opinion, but it seems kind of self-defeating to take that attitude when dealing with fiction.Comment
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May be you want to worry about a fictional character that's fine,it's your opinion but,let others have their own idea.The only argument that you state is she is in excruciating pain because Brainiac said so,it could be a lie too.Brainiac would say anything to pick on Clark and he knew that Lana is Clark's biggest weakness even more than green k.I'm pretty sure he was exagerated about her condition.After all only him know what he is really doing to Lana and knowing how Smallville's writters work over the years,when Lana will wake up from her catatonic state,she won't remember anything.So none would be totally right or wrong on this.
As far as the empathy for a character...as I said before, yes, I thought it was sad and horrible what happened to Lana, but I don't lay awake nights thinking about it, and I didn't tear up either. I thought Kristin did very very well with those scenes, and it added a whole new dynamic to her character, if you ask me. Never before had we seen Lana so completely affected by one of Clark's enemies.
People have different levels of empathy when it comes to fiction. For me it varies greatly...sometimes even things in books make me tear up, while other times things I think WOULD make me upset, don't. The only time I've ever in my life full-on cried in regards to a show/book/film, as in tears coming down my face, was Schindler's List. I'm more affected by non-fiction in that way.
Superman has many enemies, and yes I know that Clark's got a ways to go yet, but still, those enemines are going to do what they can to get to him. What does that mean? Hurting those close to him and then in turn, himself. Brainiac is not a villain who does things half way. He's going to go to the extreme, and this was such a time. Sure it was dark and disturbing, but isn't that what Brainiac is? They're no longer in h.s. fighting the FOTWs, this is the big time. As the characters progress, so do the enemies.
Sorry, that was a bit long-winded!Comment
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Thank you all for expressing yourselves in this discussion!
This addresses when peeps think that
OTHER VIOLENCE ON THE SHOW HAS BEEN WORSE
LexLuv180
But my point is I think the show has always been this dark in various areas, and so this episode didn't stand out to me as more disturbing than some of the other scenes. I can think of two endings that disturbed me more (Lionel with the rabbit cloned girl, with the father sadly watching from the other side of the glass, and Adam screaming as he was left in that dark room).
litew8
Lana got a steel rod rammed through her hand. And if that wasn't bad enough - she pulled it right out!
THAT was worse than seeing her hand all crispy.
LexLuv180
Or as a small child {LANA} watching her parents get killed in front of her...I find that just as disturbing as this.
WickedJenn
Look how Brainiac attacked Dax-Ur, how about the awful virus Martha Kent suffered from, how about the plane crash...Lois and Martha barely made it out alive, with Lois especially having longterm exposure, almost to hypothermic levels. How about Chloe being attacked by a group of people in "Zod"? Not to mention all that destruction and panic in that same episode? How about Chloe being experimented on in "Freak"? Lois [was] almost killed in "Arrow" by her head being repeatedly dunked into water? Would THAT not also be considered torture? Heck, look at poor Patricia Swann, executed Godfather-style and the suffering Clark endured in "Traveler"!
These comments address the wrong issue.
Adventure Stories legitimately use violence for the purpose of: 1) distinguishing between good guys and bad guys, and, 2) eliciting empathy for the wronged characters, yielding audience satisfaction from the story resolution (relief is achieved / bad guys get punished).
Yet, listing examples of other violence against characters does not 'prove' that the Braniac/Lana violence was acceptable, but it does underscore the contrast between all the other violence mentioned and this incident.
So, what was different about this B/L violence? Two things: 1) the degree of violence, and, 2) the nature/tenor of the violence.
1):
guittarJedi agreed that the extreme degree of violence was unnecessary to the dramatic intent:
I think if Lana would have only had her mind taken from her and made catatonic we wouldn't be having this spirited debate. We would still be concerned for her but not as strongly. The fact that she is in constant excruciating pain is the part that me and others find so troubling. The writers could have left that part out and still had an effective plot device. The pain thing was just overkill and unnecessarily disturbing.
2): Re the nature/tenor of the violence, I'm finding that this is like trying to explain colors to a blind person, because lots of you don't 'see' what this means. It's making me think hard about what I mean.
I want to approach this via WickedJenn's reasonable question about whether it was also torture to almost kill Lois by her head being dunked repeatedly in water.
The scene cited exhibits an acceptable way to depict fictional violence: it 'seems' like torture /'evokes' the notion of torture - without really showing real torture.
Dunking someone's head into water is well established in history as being considered a method of torture. Books and media show us that, e.g., Salem witches, prisoners of various wars, and spies have been tortured this way.
Was the SV scene on the TV screen that night showing real torture? No - it was performing an act that signaled to the audience, 'these are very bad people because they are torturing the good person'. Yet, the audience is also signaled that it's 'quasi'-torture because Lois still has enough breath to say her lines, and the camera does not exhibit the perpetrator's intense glee/ excitement/ enjoyment at performing it. That's really all it takes: create some 'distancing' for the audience, and, avoid showcasing that someone's getting intense enjoyment from it. This scene 'depicts' / 'indicates' "torture" without actually showing real torture.
How would that scene have been made for a torture film? Lois would have been shown Lois's desperate and terrified struggling, and the drowning progresing more realistically, plus, the intense enjoyment of the perpetrator would be showcased.
The early scenes in Vertitas repeatedly showed the Freak Hunter torturing Clark. They showcased his certain amount of zeal at doing so. But the distancing for the audience was created by Clark's reactions being unrealistic by virtue of his not shrieking and screaming, plus twisting and writhing as one would imagine he would under such extreme agony. As it is, Clark's way of responding to the circumstance only indicates he is 'being tortured'.
If we saw that scene with Clark truly shrieking, screaming, twisting and writhing in a progressively hysterical manner - well, I can imagine some of us getting up from our chairs and saying, 'Goddam - that's a bit much - wtf". The depiction would be 'too real' and would stop being entertainment and begin being disturbing.
This all has to do with the level/ quality/ tenor of the suffering, and/or the level/ quality/ tenor of the torturer's enjoyment. It is a matter of degree of verisimilitude to RL.
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So, what's this all saying about the B/L scene? The notion of unceasing intense pain steps over the line because the audience, like Lana, is never allowed to find relief. Remember, the dramatic dictate is to have the audience empathize with the character. If the audience empathizes with Lana's unceasing pain, then the empathetic audience suffers unceasingly as well. You're left with either a) a lingering feeling of being disturbed, or, b) your coping-mechanisms come into play, and peeps provide their own distancing, by saying she must not really be suffering that bad, or Braniac is prolly only lying, or it's only a fictional character. None of these effects on the audience serves the goal of drama, as Cogito17 points out:
Of course they are fictional characters played by actors, but they are characters you are supposed to empathize with and feel for. They are characters with whom (by watching the show), you share their life experiences. It seems odd that some people… have the attitude of "its just a show".
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Distancing yourself by considering it's
JUST A CHARACTER
WickedJenn
Was it disturbing in some way? Sure, it's a main character getting hurt, and a prolonged suffering at that. However, it IS just a character.
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Kal_el_of_krypton
i understand how disturbed people who but just remember its a TV show. KK is not really in pain lol
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sherban1980
I had forgot about Lana's condition by the time the episode ended, only to be reminded by it when Clark visited her. It IS just a TV show you know. I'm pretty darn sure KK is not trapped in her own body and feeling horrible pains.
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This brings up a world-view that might offer a new insight to peeps who use this way to deal with the B/L incident. I'd like to ask everyone: how do you know things? Really - we know all about how to milk a cow - but, have you ever really done it, or is your knowledge come from books and TV/films? We know all about lots and lots of things - have we ever done them in real life? Have we parachuted from a plane, lifted from the Earth in a space shuttle, solved a murder, cooked a roast goose, been shot with a bullet, climbed Kilimanjaro? No - but we know a lot about those things, almost as if we'd experienced them. If you reflect, by far most of the things we 'know' about - are things that have been represented to us.
From this point of view, there's no such thing as 'just' a TV show. Instead, there's a spectrum of representation of real life, from entirely unbelievable/ purposefully silly, all the way over to extremely convincing and realistic. And this spectrum comprises a huge portion of what we consider 'reality'. Let's take the silliest thing on TV: the roadrunner and the coyote. Completely unbelievable - silly, amusing cartoons. However, I wager that upon seeing them, one comes away with lessons that are then applied to one's life: don't fail over and over by not improving your approach; don't be so obsessed that you resist pulling-back from a losing proposition; think plans through thoroughly before putting them into effect. Growing up, didn't you 'learn' these 'lessons' from this silly show that's 'only' a cartoon?
This is what I was referring to when I posted earlier about the interrelation between cultural expression and cultural evolution: they are constantly affecting - while at the same time reflecting - each other.
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sherban1980's interesting post has several things going on in it:
And, to address the idea of the topic. I for one don't think it was too much… It wasn't even horrible unbearable pain. It's not like she was being chopped to pieces. Her hand was a bit boiled, big whoop. I'm only 19 and that happened to me 3 times…
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Honestly, from the way they stuck Lana in our faces… all this time, they probably could've showed Brainiac torturing her with the most horrible means known to man, and I'd be smiling or laughing my ass off. Does that make me an evil sadist? However, If anything bad were to happen to Lois. I mean... anything, I'd be feeling an empty space in my stomach. Does that make me a sensitive person?
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Coping by creating an
ALTERNATE UNIVERSE
Sweetie
Who said that Brainiac isn't lying about how much Lana is suffering. I think he was just saying that so Clark will feel even more guilty if that is can be possible. I think she can't feel anything, he jammed all her nervous system. She's like a robot…
I'm pretty sure he was exaggerating about her condition. After all only he knows what he is really doing to Lana and knowing how Smallville's writers work over the years, when Lana will wake up from her catatonic state, she won't remember anything. So no one would be totally right or wrong on this.
WickedJenn
Brainiac COULD have said that to Clark to make him feel worse. That's not to say she ISN'T suffering at all, though. And who's to say that the "pain" Lana is feeling is not psychological? What with knowing what's happening to her but not being able to do anything about it. Of course we don't know for sure, so I can't say that it's solely mental, but it has to be a portion of it. And who knows, if Brainiac WAS in fact exaggerating to make Clark suffer, he probably wouldn't ever tell him that he was.
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Over-board violence establishes a
BIG-TIME BADDIE
All_about_Clark
Braniac and Zod and Bizarro have no respect for human life, being shown as sick is much appropriate. Superman can take care of meanie's with his [eyes] closed, obviously these others need to be portrayed as more dangerous.
WickedJenn
Brainiac is not a villain who does things half way. He's going to go to the extreme, and this was such a time. Sure it was dark and disturbing, but isn't that what Brainiac is? They're no longer in h.s. fighting the FOTWs, this is the big time. As the characters progress, so do the enemies.
=> This argument avoids the fact that Brainiac can be portrayed as being 'sick', very 'dangerous', 'disturbing', and personifying an 'escalation of enmity' - all by indicating that he is sadistic, instead of depicting/ showing him being sadistic.
In real life, causing someone unceasing excruciating pain is an almost unimaginable level of cruelty. If you folks have seen the film Se7en, the guy who was kept alive by IV and antibiotics after his tongue having been cut-out then his skin flayed off his body over a year's time - yup, that' pretty fracking sadistic. But the distinction is that we come across the victim at the end of his suffering, and we anticipate his being cared for (as poor a solace as that may be) now that the police have found him. The distancing for the audience, here, comes from the fact there's an end to the agony.
guittarjedi points this out:
Usually when a good guy character is put into a precarious situation, at the end of the episode we see them get out of it and have a happy ending. In "Traveler" Clark was trapped in a cage and tortured but in the end he was saved by Kara and the audience was relieved of our concern for the character's well being. "Veritas" had no positive resolution to put the audience at ease leaving us with a sickening unsatisfied feeling.
TOMophilus and I are on the same wavelength (thnx, Baby!):
[i] Bravo, Rosetta! Perfectly well stated. The overuse of violence on SV… clearly indicates that the PTB have run out of creative ideas. So all that remains is to appeal to the lowest and most primitive form of entertainment: violence for violence´s sake… Creative authors know how to create even high levels of suspense with a minimal dose of violence. [i]
In conclusion, I agree with suzyQ:
...If you want to watch that stuff go to a Slasher movie but I don't think it is all that necessary on General TV viewing!
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Thank you, all, for this spirited debate!Comment
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Well i am just sadistic and this idea of her pain tickles me more than any acting or bit of violence to date, even better than Lionel and the bear trap, i enjoy this sort of stuff. I am sorry for the character, and to sympathise i have been in quite alot of pain (motorbike accidents where i was unable to move for the pain for about a week, having to carry cusions around with me for over a month just to sit properly). Burning pains i find particularly severe, above impact injury and electrical injury, so that idea i find slightly overwhelming holding onto that pan for all that time; yet i still enjoy watching or thinking about it.
The problem is here that Smallvilles audience is primarily US and Canada, who watch programs which resolve with upbeat ending, watch some really great films where the worst happens by the end (i just watched the mist recently, what a fantasticly sadistic piece of irony at the end). Go watch some hardcore horror, which has no good ending, people are used to seeing shocking things, but not often disturbing endings.
Get some nuts people.Comment
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WickedJenn
Quote:
Brainiac is not a villain who does things half way. He's going to go to the extreme, and this was such a time. Sure it was dark and disturbing, but isn't that what Brainiac is? They're no longer in h.s. fighting the FOTWs, this is the big time. As the characters progress, so do the enemies.
=> This argument avoids the fact that Brainiac can be portrayed as being 'sick', very 'dangerous', 'disturbing', and personifying an 'escalation of enmity' - all by indicating that he is sadistic, instead of depicting/ showing him being sadistic.
In real life, causing someone unceasing excruciating pain is an almost unimaginable level of cruelty. If you folks have seen the film Se7en, the guy who was kept alive by IV and antibiotics after his tongue having been cut-out then his skin flayed off his body over a year's time - yup, that' pretty fracking sadistic. But the distinction is that we come across the victim at the end of his suffering, and we anticipate his being cared for (as poor a solace as that may be) now that the police have found him. The distancing for the audience, here, comes from the fact there's an end to the agony.
I'm guessing you've seen Hostel? I'd actually be curious to see what you thought of that.
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WickedJenn
Quote:
Brainiac COULD have said that to Clark to make him feel worse. That's not to say she ISN'T suffering at all, though. And who's to say that the "pain" Lana is feeling is not psychological? What with knowing what's happening to her but not being able to do anything about it. Of course we don't know for sure, so I can't say that it's solely mental, but it has to be a portion of it. And who knows, if Brainiac WAS in fact exaggerating to make Clark suffer, he probably wouldn't ever tell him that he was.
=> These posts illustrate coping by convincing themselves that the suffering is not real. Regardless of whether the Writers make that true in a future ep, the fact remains that within this episode it is real, and the queasy feeling left from the episode doesn't magically disappear from one's mind if it all turns out to have been a lie. One can feel relief from that eventuality, but one cannot blot-out the experience/ memory of the discomfort one can carry away from this ep.
And The Animal (marcus), right on, regarding your latter paragraph.Last edited by WickedJenn; 04-03-2008, 08:31 AM.Comment
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Well written, Rose etta. I can't say I agree with it being too much though.
This is just a matter of opinion really, and how much you've previously been exposed to such ...violence. I'm sure I could have been really shocked at that scene if I'd never seen a horror movie or disturbing scene before in my life. I've seen plently though. I don't see how this affects me in any bad way however, so I see nothing wrong with it. That scene does not make me more sadistic or makes me want to go around burning people's hands.
If it had triggered something like that inside of me, then really, it's because of a problem that I have and not the episode/scene. Again, I see nothing wrong with it at all, and that's just my opinion on it.Comment
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Well written, Rose etta. I can't say I agree with it being too much though.
This is just a matter of opinion really, and how much you've previously been exposed to such ...violence. I'm sure I could have been really shocked at that scene if I'd never seen a horror movie or disturbing scene before in my life. I've seen plently though. I don't see how this affects me in any bad way however, so I see nothing wrong with it. That scene does not make me more sadistic or makes me want to go around burning people's hands.
If it had triggered something like that inside of me, then really, it's because of a problem that I have and not the episode/scene. Again, I see nothing wrong with it at all, and that's just my opinion on it.Comment
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