View Poll Results: was this Clark at his most un-Superman-like tonight??

Voters
170. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes

    108 63.53%
  • no

    62 36.47%
Page 18 of 18 FirstFirst ... 81415161718
Results 256 to 267 of 267
  1. #256
    Mad Man with a Box! HalJordan4184's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 04
    Location
    Erie, Pa
    Posts
    4,182
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito17 View Post
    I bolded and underlined the contradiction in your argument. If he was, as you have pointed out, sent to the Phantom Zone, then he was not there of his own free will. He was forced there, and the only way to escape was along with the Phantoms.

    Also, I said that "I feel" as a polite way of saying that its illogical. Furthermore, we are simply expressing opinions here, choosing to present your opinion as fact does not make it any more valid than me presenting mine as what it is: an opinion.

    Anyways, allow me to make my point by way of analogy. If you open a window, and a poisonous spider comes through the window, and ends up biting someone, is it your fault for opening the window when you had no forewarning that a poisonous spider would come through? It is illogical to blame the person opening the window (or in this case, Clark for allowing the zoners to escape). Not to mention the fact that in the case of Clark (Escaping the Phantom zone) was necessary to save the world from Zod.

    This is the kind of attitude I find objectionable, because it interprets things in about the most negative light possible in terms of Clark. It is a bottom line interpretation ignoring many other aspects of the story which absolve Clark of much of the guilt.
    I hardly interpret all of Clark wualities in a negative light, and am one of the few posters on here, who though they don't like Clark, have said he is redeemable in some way, and could make a decent superhero.

    Why was Clark sent to the Phantom Zone to begin with. Oh yes, because he didn't get the stones, because for some reason, even though told it was something he had to do to save the freaking planet, he somehow rationalized if he did nothing, things would turn out better than if he took time to save the literal world. Clark's getting sent to Phantom Zone, was in direct relation to Brainiac releasing Zod.

    This isn't a case if i leave a window open, and a poisonous spider comes in and bites someone is it my fault. Clark KNEW THERE WOULD BE DIRE CONSEQUENCES. HE KNEW THAT. He chose to ignore that whole thing, and pretend everything would just work itself out, and no one would even notice the END OF THE WORLD.

    A more apt analogy:

    Let's say you go camping, and the area is filled with deadly man eating cougars. THere are signs all along the trail warning you of the cougars. The people in your car ask if you really should be camping here, because the signs seem to indicate there are man eating cougars. YOu tell them it will be fine, ignore the warnings, and continue on. After setting up camp, a man eating cougar comes, and eats one of your friends. Are you at fault. Well, you didn't make the cougar come eat your friend, but you sure as heck didn't take anywhere near the precautions necessary to prevent it.

  2. #257
    Forum Regular Cogito17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 07
    Posts
    388
    Sorry, I thought we were on strictly the Phantom zone discussion, which is what my analogy was aimed at. But, if you go all the way back to the "stones" story, there is something else to that too...

    What you described is actually a misconception about the stones that I hear all the time that is not entirely true. If you have the DVDs rewatch the opening to "Sacred" in season 4. What Jor-El says to Clark is, "Greed will drive others to hunt the stones, but if a human should unite them before you, they will not be able to withstand the temptation, and will drive the world to famine, war, and the earth's ultimate destruction". Jor-El told Clark that there was only a threat should a human unite the stones, which was impossible given that Clark had one of the stones. As long as Clark has one stone, no human could unite them. So, if he wasn't gung-ho to collect the stones, I think thats perfectly reasonable given his history with Jor-El at that point especially considering the last time he did what Jor-El wanted, he had his memory erased and returned to earth only as "Kal-El" (Season4 "Crusade"). And, he was able to prevent all that Jor-El said, simply by possessing one stone and thereby making it impossible for a human to unite them.

    Now, what has been said in the show to be the cause of the second meteor shower, was that one of the stones was tainted with human blood. It was not that Clark didn't gather them quickly enough. Though, you could say that if he had gathered them as requested, Lana/Isobel wouldn't have had a stone to stab Mrs. Teague with. I don't think Clark could have predicted that (as happened in the show) Jason would steal the stone in China, Lana would hide it from Jason, then, when attacked by Mrs. Teague, she is possessed by an evil witch who stabs Mrs. Teague with a stone. Again, is it really reasonable that Clark should have foreseen all this happening?

    In the season 4 finale, when Jor-El says that the threat is imminent, and he must find the stones quickly, look at how quickly Clark springs into action. He gathers the last 2 stones in under an hour. And again, it was Isobel stabbing Mrs. Teague with the stone that released Brainiac/the 2 kryptonians. So, as quickly as I can, the events in succession from there.... Isobel stabs Teague -> releases Brainiac/Kryptonians -> Brainiac releases Zod -> Zod sends Clark to phantom zone -> Clark escapes the Phantom zone with the phantoms to return to earth and save the world from Zod. As I have pointed out in this post, the catalyst for all these events was unforeseeable, and subsequent events were caused by Brainiac and Zod. They are 2 major super-villains, having Clark struggle to stop them and allowing them a couple short-term victories is expected.

  3. #258
    I reject your reality dru-zod2501's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 06
    Location
    Just moved to Clessopolis!
    Posts
    4,894
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito17 View Post
    Sorry, I thought we were on strictly the Phantom zone discussion, which is what my analogy was aimed at. But, if you go all the way back to the "stones" story, there is something else to that too...

    What you described is actually a misconception about the stones that I hear all the time that is not entirely true. If you have the DVDs rewatch the opening to "Sacred" in season 4. What Jor-El says to Clark is, "Greed will drive others to hunt the stones, but if a human should unite them before you, they will not be able to withstand the temptation, and will drive the world to famine, war, and the earth's ultimate destruction". Jor-El told Clark that there was only a threat should a human unite the stones, which was impossible given that Clark had one of the stones. As long as Clark has one stone, no human could unite them. So, if he wasn't gung-ho to collect the stones, I think thats perfectly reasonable given his history with Jor-El at that point especially considering the last time he did what Jor-El wanted, he had his memory erased and returned to earth only as "Kal-El" (Season4 "Crusade"). And, he was able to prevent all that Jor-El said, simply by possessing one stone and thereby making it impossible for a human to unite them.
    sorry to interrupt your dialogue, but I must ask, do you really believe that posessing 1 of the stones was really enough? It seems to me like common sense, doesn't even have to be "Superman" sense, would tell me "If all the stones would do this so much havoc together, I can't imagine what they could do by themselves. And people are going to do whatever it takes to get them, wouldn't they be better off in a place where I can make sure nothing happens to them or to someone using them the wrong way?"
    The other way just sounds like lazy thinking on Clark's part

    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito17 View Post
    Now, what has been said in the show to be the cause of the second meteor shower, was that one of the stones was tainted with human blood. It was not that Clark didn't gather them quickly enough. Though, you could say that if he had gathered them as requested, Lana/Isobel wouldn't have had a stone to stab Mrs. Teague with. I don't think Clark could have predicted that (as happened in the show) Jason would steal the stone in China, Lana would hide it from Jason, then, when attacked by Mrs. Teague, she is possessed by an evil witch who stabs Mrs. Teague with a stone. Again, is it really reasonable that Clark should have foreseen all this happening?.
    See the above. No he couldn't have forseen Lana & the Teagues playing keep away with each other, but if I remember correctly Clark didn't go to China just to find the stone, but to find out why Lana went there, which led to an "oh look it must be my lucky day, look what I found"

  4. #259
    Forum Regular Cogito17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 07
    Posts
    388
    Quote Originally Posted by dru-zod2501 View Post
    sorry to interrupt your dialogue, but I must ask, do you really believe that posessing 1 of the stones was really enough? It seems to me like common sense, doesn't even have to be "Superman" sense, would tell me "If all the stones would do this so much havoc together, I can't imagine what they could do by themselves. And people are going to do whatever it takes to get them, wouldn't they be better off in a place where I can make sure nothing happens to them or to someone using them the wrong way?"
    The other way just sounds like lazy thinking on Clark's part


    See the above. No he couldn't have forseen Lana & the Teagues playing keep away with each other, but if I remember correctly Clark didn't go to China just to find the stone, but to find out why Lana went there, which led to an "oh look it must be my lucky day, look what I found"
    The stones did nothing while they were seperated. At one point or another, Lionel had a stone, Lex had a stone, Jason had a stone, Lana had a stone, and Bridgett Crosby(?) had a stone. And what apocalyptic events happened? None, not until Isobel stabbed Teague with the stone, which, as you pointed out, could not have been foreseen.

    Last time Clark listened to Jor-El (at that point), he wound up with his memory wiped and Kal-El in his place. He simultaneously prevented the danger of a human uniting the stones (which is what he was warned about, not simply a human having a stone), and also protected himself from potential harm from Jor-El. Again, Jor-El's intentions were good, but given the history between them at that point, its unreasonable to assume Clark would want to do as he was told.

    The only threat Clark was warned about (as I pointed out in my post before yours, that is a direct quote from the episode) was a person UNITING the stones, which was impossible so long as Clark had a stone in his possession.

  5. #260
    Whedon Worshipper Hopefulsuicide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 03
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,472
    okay, in terms of the new episode i have two points supporting both the Clark is less Superman, and the Clark is more superman arguements

    1. telling Chloe to focus and ignore the clearly important sirens and mess going on outside and then looking ridiculously reluctant to investigate because it might get in the way of his Lana mission was just so un superman i could have yelled at him 'no you focus you single minded idiot!' i mean all he was doing was getting Chloe to go over things that she had already done and come up with nothing. it was pointless. and for all he knew the things happening outside might have been to do with Braniac! why not even be a little curious? BDA strikes again

    2. The funeral scene - that was Superman. it just was. He came up, he looked strong and respectful. He said nothing, he was clearly there just to pay his respects despite his hate for Lex and the things he must have wanted to get of his chest. He just bowed his head and (what i imagine was) said his prayers and goodbye's and gave Lex a look that clearly showed why he is a greater man that Lex will ever be. It was humble but powerful at the same time. I know it's weird to get so much from just one scene without dialgouge (especially from someone who usually feels no emotion in scenes on Smallville) but i think i will forever remember this scene as perfect in terms of who Superman is

    it gives me so much hope

  6. #261
    Site Groupie All about Clark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 05
    Location
    Vacaville, CA
    Posts
    3,596
    ^I don't think it's fair that you think Clark is un-Superman-like just because he wanted Chloe to focus on the hunt for Brainiac. I thought it was clear he was worried about Kara and Lana and what Brainiac had in store for all of them. Cause let's face it, Brainiac could hurt more people by letting him run amock. So how is wanting to protect people un-Superman-like? Chloe was unaffected by his comment anyway, why does it steam you? I like the very normal banter they have.

    I agree with Cogito regarding the stones. Jor-el was very unclear most of the time, which was so frustrating. And because of this, Clark didn't know what to make of it, and it wouldn't look right if Superman was hunting them like Genevieve and Lex. I'm very glad they didn't make him look this way. He had one stone and protected it in the witch episode. Someone said he wasn't after the stone in Sacred and I don't believe that's true. He went with Lana to protect her and to get the stone. Doing what he thought he was suppose to do.

    ----- Added 5 Minutes later -----

    Quote Originally Posted by HalJordan4184 View Post
    Why was Clark sent to the Phantom Zone to begin with. Oh yes, because he didn't get the stones, because for some reason, even though told it was something he had to do to save the freaking planet, he somehow rationalized if he did nothing, things would turn out better than if he took time to save the literal world. Clark's getting sent to Phantom Zone, was in direct relation to Brainiac releasing Zod.
    See, this just isn't true. It was in Commencement that Jor-el told Clark to unite the stones to save the planet and that is exactly what Clark did. At no other time did Jor-el say the planet was in danger due to the stones.
    Last edited by All about Clark; 04-21-2008 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  7. #262
    Whedon Worshipper Hopefulsuicide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 03
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,472
    Quote Originally Posted by All about Clark View Post
    ^I don't think it's fair that you think Clark is un-Superman-like just because he wanted Chloe to focus on the hunt for Brainiac. I thought it was clear he was worried about Kara and Lana and what Brainiac had in store for all of them. Cause let's face it, Brainiac could hurt more people by letting him run amock. So how is wanting to protect people un-Superman-like? Chloe was unaffected by his comment anyway, why does it steam you? I like the very normal banter they have.

    .
    i find it funny that you ignore the very positive points i made about Clark in this episode a simply focus on the negative point i made

    but to counter it, i don't think it is unfair to say he was being incredibly closed minded. as i said, what was going on outside COULD have been Kara or Lana or Braniac related and he didn't even take a second to check. no, nothing could possibly be going on that i could care about more than checking the electrical grids again

    except that he did care about it... he cared about it so much that he didnt think about lana or kara again for the whole episode. so i think that his initial dismisal of the sirens and then he complete reluctance even after the suggestion was made that Lionel has fallen 40 stories, is incredibly un superman.

    but as i also said, the final scene was SO superman, that i forgave it. i mean i just watched it again, and i find everything i ever loved about Clark and Lex in any incarnation right there in those looks they give each other... but maybe i just have an active imagination

  8. #263
    Board Master Kevin24's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 08
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,014
    It didn't bother me that he ignored the sirens but I was thinking that he should go check it out.

    Was this after Lois came in to tell them what was going on? or after the fact?

  9. #264
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 06
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    8,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin24 View Post
    Was this after Lois came in to tell them what was going on? or after the fact?
    Lois told them what happened, and that's when they got their butts in gear.

  10. #265
    Board Master Kevin24's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 08
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,014
    Now that I think about it. I don't know what that was about....Why wouldn't he go check it out? It would have only took him a second to superspeed or superhear what was going on....Maybe he did ? lol

  11. #266
    Forum Whiz Yasise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 08
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    892
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopefulsuicide View Post
    ................but as i also said, the final scene was SO superman, that i forgave it. i mean i just watched it again, and i find everything i ever loved about Clark and Lex in any incarnation right there in those looks they give each other... but maybe i just have an active imagination
    Everything's fine with your imagination, because you're sooo right!

    This scene, those looks.....that was so much Superman vs. Lex Luthor...it gave me chills!

    AWSOME!

  12. #267
    Forum Regular pizzaguy19's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 07
    Posts
    314
    Quote Originally Posted by dru-zod2501 View Post
    no flight? I got over that seasons ago. What grinds me is that this was the one episode when the chips were really down, and what does Clark do? he outsources the hero work for Kara and Chloe. Did he track down any leads on his own? no. Did he at any point stop to think things through, try to understand what the hell's going on? no. Did he NOT guilt himself into submission? of course not. He had his hands full chasing Lana and his tail all episode. Or maybe, just maybe even consider that Lionel might have info? Lying magnificent bastard? yea maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that he knows stuff.

    Did anyone else notice that look of disgust, and contempt, and pity Brainy shot him just before he flew off? I could almost hear him say "son of Jor-El, you're even more worthless than the sapien scum you hide with"
    This is exactly what I was thinking whenever he was going off about Lana. Freaking Lois and Jimmy found out more than he did with his accusations to Lionel.

Page 18 of 18 FirstFirst ... 81415161718

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •