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  • #31
    Bad people ussually only care about themselves. Only the truely crazy ones don't care about themselves and just their *evol* master plan.

    Who says he actually cares about Peter? Peter was his ticket out of The Company's jail, of course he made buddy/buddy with him. He's manipulating him for his own means.

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    • #32
      Nah. Peter and Adam are going to fight the evil Angela Petrelli and her next world-ruining evil scheme.

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      • #33
        So, as you see it, for one to be bad, they must actually desire the pain or injustice of others? I think one could be extremely bad, even if that pain or injustice to others was not the exact object of their desires. If I have a relationship with someone, impregnate her, and then kill her in order that I do not have the legal responsibilities that fatherhood entails, that murder was still horrible, even though I did not directly desire her death, but the avoidance of a cost on myself. Although it may be true that a sociopath who desires pain, injustice, and death inandofitself, is pretty damn scary, one who is merely willing to have these ends as consequences in pursuit of another goal, namely self-interest, are still bad.

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        • #34
          Please... don't use hypotheticals anymore.

          Anyway, looking out for your own hide and wanting the best for yourself before others doesn't make you bad. Self-centered, yes.

          I think everyone is so quick to assume Adam is the bad guy when:

          a) there's a killer on the loose
          b) Adam hit Hiro in the head

          Those two don't isolated events don't make Adam the villain.

          He's the easiest target to assume is the villain, but this is Heroes we're talking about. Where every action goes deeper than just what's done and said on the surface.

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          • #35
            He's just a different type of villain. Villains come in all shapes and sizes.

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            • #36
              I don't think he's a villain at all.

              I think everyone should keep an eye on HRG. He's got a mean streak in him and he's on the verge of snapping.

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              • #37
                Thank you, Son of Kal-el, in helping me to illustrate that although he may not be the villain that killed Kaito or is responsible for those deaths, he may still be a villain. And yes, Mello Penello, you are correct in that it does not necessarily follow
                1. Kensei betrayed Hiro in the past
                and
                2. There is a killer responsible for the of some people, and the manner of their deaths would be consistent with Adam's abilities.

                that

                3. Adam is the killer

                However, it also is not necessarily true that because that argument is not a logically valid, that Adam/Kensei is not a villain, either. Even if we suppose that Adam is not behind the killings of anyone in present-time, his actions of supplying White Beard with guns, disregarding the probably disastrous result of this, in exchange for his own interests of having part of the country, and Yaeko as his princess, constitute self-centeredness beyond that which is morally permissible.

                I do not think that a degree of egoism is at all bad in people. In fact, I believe that just about everyone has a component in them that desires their own happiness and well-being. This inclination in mankind, to pursue one's own happiness, likely makes the world a better place, if you at all value human happiness, to which the contrary seems absurd. However, if your own happiness or well being is the only factor in consideration of action, you are necessarily an immoral person, and, in many given situations, will be a villain. Adam's action of allying with Whitebeard clearly disregarded the enormous potential for death and misery in his action in favor of his own self-interest, and was definitely villainous.

                On another note, why do you not want me to use hypotheticals? I try to use examples that will help to illustrate my point. If you believe there is a significant element in an example from Heroes that would make it incomparable to my analogue, please identify it in a post, and we may discuss it further. However, I do not understand why you believe that hypotheticals, or more specifically, mine, are inappropriate.

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                • #38
                  I meant that hypothetical. I see stuff about pregnancy and murder and things get blurry.

                  I meant don't do it again if those are the kind of hypotheticals you tend to use.

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                  • #39
                    Well, I used that hypothetical because it clearly showed an instance in which one acted immorally, with a motivation apart from what you had considered to be a requirement: pain or injustice to others. I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you meant by blurry. I don't think that it is a matter of blurry, or grey, that killing someone coldly toward the ends of your own selfish gain is wrong. If this is not wrong, can you please give me an example of what is?

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                    • #40
                      I get too upset when I think about murder and babies (sister-in-law lost hers in an accident). It was nothing to you, but when I see someone talk about those topics, I have a hard time finishing the subject.

                      I still don't think Adam is bad, though.

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                      • #41
                        In the past, it seemed that Adam started out as a jerk, wanted to become a Hero, loved that he was able to, and then fell in a moment of weakness when his role model, the man who taught him everything about being the Good Guy, betrayed his friendship.

                        Of course, that was a few centuries from the modern day, so he may be a completely differernt person by now.



                        I personally disagree with Mello Penelo about whether Self-Centred-ness can make you bad, but agree that he is not a bad guy. Even if he is the Killer, I see him doing the same thing as HRG- taking out the people that would rather have millions die than a man reveal their existance to the world.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by The Ninth Doctor
                          I personally disagree with Mello Penelo about whether Self-Centred-ness can make you bad
                          I didn't say being self-centered makes you bad. I said being bad and self-centeredness are two different things. That was my argument for why Adam is not a villain.

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