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Has Clark ever really crossed the moral line to save someone?

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  • #61
    Re: Re: In 'Cure'

    Originally posted by CDLBLUE
    Much of it predicated on the concept of the morality of power and it's uses, Clark and Lex are the dichotomy of the concept, one uses it for the general good, the other for personal gain, one is selfless in it's excution and the other selfish, one will find his way to almost perfect virtue, and the other will go to the dark side, the story of Smallville is how they reached their preordained destinations, and the tragedy of Smallville is not the existence of a Superhero, but in this alternated universe, the necessity of one.
    Excellent post. Couldn't agree more!


    Originally posted by HalJordan4184
    Calrk can not claim that. It would never hold up in a court of law, nor does it hold up morally. Clark can move at speeds virtually unfathomable to humans. Clark is invulnerable, save Kryptonite being there, he has strength thousands of times that of a human being, he can shoot fire from his eyes, and hear a pin drop from orbit. He can not claim self defense or defense of another, in killing a normal human being. There is no reasonable threat of death or serious bodily harm, if Clark is even remotely near what's happening.
    what it comes down to is what the writers have been trying to convey to us, and IMO they shout to all of us how Lana sees him in the wrong light, and that their Clark never really has "crossed the moral line".

    When Lana said, "i'm not going to apologize for going to extremes to protect the person that i love", and Clark told her she sounds like Lex, to which Lana replied, "I sound like you !", Clark looked hurt, and disappointed that she would think that of him. It only proved to him further that she really doesn't know him at all, nor does she have faith in his best intentions. When she said, "You can't tell me you haven't crossed the moral line to save someone", it appeared to really bother him that that's how she looked at him, rather than see his ultimate reverence for life, his desire to try and see good in everyone, and to protect those he cares for the most only through defensive measures when necessary, never offensive ones.

    It made clear that her idea, her image, of him is not of some noble, caring person, who worries that "no matter how many people he saves, he can't solve the world's problems" (--S6.Ep9:SUBTERRANEAN)
    Lana's accusations are a drastic contrast to Chloe's praise, "I don't know anyone who does more for this world than you."

    while Chloe tries to dispel his guilt and his berating of himself, Lana plants those little seeds that make him question his own motives and noble ideals and ladens him with even more undeserved guilt.

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    • #62
      Khyla, loved your use of the dialogue to make your point here, it's what I would have done. Clark did explain it best, and I love the way you threw in Chloe's words too.

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      • #63
        And that had exactly what to do with my post. I wasn't addressing what Lana said, I was addressing the fact that Clark has indeed crossed the moral line, just not in the way Lana did. Lana was going to outright kill, and yes, we all know she was being bad. However, Clark standing idly by, while people three feet from him are dying, and just going oh well, they were bad, is just as morally questionable. Especially given the character tptb have been trying to portray is Clark Kent.

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        • #64
          We do get you don't agree with TPTB's portrayal of Clark. However, I do hold weight to the fact that he is still young and still has been learning his powers, especially in the first 3 years. I think that the issue might lie in if I save them, then how is that I will stop them. I know in later years he'll have the suit and just fly them off to the authorities. But Clark doesn't have the suit or the back-up of the authorities or the flight. I think that when Clark has these things it will be easier to wisk them off to jail instead of letting them fall on their own sword. And really another issue is out there, that Clark faces meteor freaks and people with powers, just how can the authorities control these type of individuals. Sometimes even their capabilities are less than what is needed. It's not like Clark had the option of getting Titan to the cops, because let's face it, no jail would hold him and that has been true for some of the freaks. I mean Tina Greer could be anyone, could escape anytime and did so by killing someone. So in the case of Tina Greer, I think falling on her own sword was probably the only way to protect future people. And in the example of Lex, who has been a regular person without abilities, Clark has protected Lex from harm even when he could have died from his own sword, so to speak.

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          • #65
            Clark can knock them out, like he has coutless other people in the past. That's the problem. Take Curtis Knox, who for all intents and purposes was a normal human. IF it came down to stopping someone who was essentially good, but for some reason was doing bad, like Pete in Rush, he just taps them on the head and knocks them out. However, if it's a random freak, or guest bad guy, he tosses them fifty feet, and in Knox's case, electrocutes him. It's the blatant disregard for their life, simply because they are the bad guy, that's crossing over the moral line.

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            • #66
              Being that the tossed never get hurt I have to go with that being similar to the knock to the head and TPTB only do that for theatrics. But you had brought up Tina Greer in particular and it was shown that she had super-strength and the old head knocking or toss wasn't going to work as a means of stopping her. As for Curtis Knox, I agree it was very careless (an accident) that it seemed he didn't pay attention to where he was tossing, but then again I think that's just another one of those things TPTB used to let Clark know that Curtis was immortal; yes, you and I would have prefered a better way to get there. And I do agree that TPTB do take some liberties, but I don't think there intent is to have him crossing a moral line, because usually the bad guy never gets hurt. But I do stick to the fact the force is most likely a way for Clark to stop the meteor infected that have krytonite in them that makes them strong, and in that case they do always cause their own demise. But I will always feel that Titan was different and that Clark went there with the intention to kill and that can't be overlooked, but as I have said before that Clark holds human life over alien life, and to the extent we've even seen self-loathe because of his alien nature.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Atomic girl
                Khyla, loved your use of the dialogue to make your point here, it's what I would have done. Clark did explain it best, and I love the way you threw in Chloe's words too.
                Thank you!


                Originally posted by All about Clark
                Being that the tossed never get hurt I have to go with that being similar to the knock to the head and TPTB only do that for theatrics. But you had brought up Tina Greer in particular and it was shown that she had super-strength and the old head knocking or toss wasn't going to work as a means of stopping her. As for Curtis Knox, I agree it was very careless (an accident) that it seemed he didn't pay attention to where he was tossing, but then again I think that's just another one of those things TPTB used to let Clark know that Curtis was immortal; yes, you and I would have prefered a better way to get there. And I do agree that TPTB do take some liberties, but I don't think there intent is to have him crossing a moral line, because usually the bad guy never gets hurt. But I do stick to the fact the force is most likely a way for Clark to stop the meteor infected that have krytonite in them that makes them strong, and in that case they do always cause their own demise. But I will always feel that Titan was different and that Clark went there with the intention to kill and that can't be overlooked, but as I have said before that Clark holds human life over alien life, and to the extent we've even seen self-loathe because of his alien nature.
                Excellent post!

                i agree completely!

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                • #68
                  Re: Has Clark ever really crossed a moral line to save someone?

                  I don't know. What are Clark Kent's morals? on this show? Not much.

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                  • #69
                    Truth be told Clark always walks a very fine line trying not to hurt people, animals or break things.But that does not mean he has never thought of it at one point or another. Remember that after he learned that Lana was seemingly dead he was just about ready to kill Lex. In the comics is pretty much the same thing. Superman for all intended purposes lives in a world of cardboard. Only in Justice League Unlimited do we see him breaking loose on a villain Darkseid...

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                    • #70
                      Re: Re: Re: In 'Cure'

                      [QUOTE]Originally posted by Khyla

                      What it comes down to is what the writers have been trying to convey to us, and IMO they shout to all of us how Lana sees him in the wrong light, and that their Clark never really has "crossed the moral line".
                      When Lana said, "i'm not going to apologize for going to extremes to protect the person that i love", and Clark told her she sounds like Lex, to which Lana replied, "I sound like you !", Clark looked hurt, and disappointed that she would think that of him. It only proved to him further that she really doesn't know him at all, nor does she have faith in his best intentions.
                      While Chloe tries to dispel his guilt and his berating of himself, Lana plants those little seeds that make him question his own motives and noble ideals and ladens him with even more undeserved guilt
                      [/B]

                      WOW! Kyla, IMO, All of your comments & observations about the underlying layers of disparity in the relationships between Clark & Lana then between Clark & Chloe are agreed to be, indeed, excellent. Especially in that last statement about 'planting' guilt. Lex has that affect on Clark. Maybe it's a device to point to their days as friends when Clark used to go to Lex for advice. Whatever Lex says, from observation or attitude, if Clark is harboring some feelings he's not spoken of, Lex manages to get to him whether they're 'real' or not. It is ALSO apparent that there is a Similarity in Lana's & Lex's attitude toward Clark in that respect, even when Lex doesn't know the details of Clark's true 'Secret'. Their attitudes are very close. It seems that TPTB Are pointing out to us that it's Noticeable by all who are around Lana that she's taken on many of Lex's attitudes, except she's the only one who doesn't see it.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Imzadia


                        WOW! Kyla, IMO, All of your comments & observations about the underlying layers of disparity in the relationships between Clark & Lana then between Clark & Chloe are agreed to be, indeed, excellent. Especially in that last statement about 'planting' guilt. Lex has that affect on Clark. Maybe it's a device to point to their days as friends when Clark used to go to Lex for advice. Whatever Lex says, from observation or attitude, if Clark is harboring some feelings he's not spoken of, Lex manages to get to him whether they're 'real' or not. It is ALSO apparent that there is a Similarity in Lana's & Lex's attitude toward Clark in that respect, even when Lex doesn't know the details of Clark's true 'Secret'. Their attitudes are very close. It seems that TPTB Are pointing out to us that it's Noticeable by all who are around Lana that she's taken on many of Lex's attitudes, except she's the only one who doesn't see it. [/B]
                        thank you ! and I agree, though the writers will probably never bring back Lexana they will show us a Lana who can not be with Clark either, because she is straddling the two of them, (that sounds kinky ) and always will be.

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                        • #72
                          Ditto!!

                          Originally posted by Khyla
                          thank you ! and I agree, though the writers will probably never bring back Lexana they will show us a Lana who can not be with Clark either, because she is straddling the two of them, (that sounds kinky ) and always will be.
                          Ditto! Khyla...I completely agree with you. The newly formed relationship between Clark & Lana infused with 'even newer, darker developments' within Lana's character gives me much satisfaction. Lana has never shared All the 'detail' of what she endured at the Luthor's hands. She found herself in a dangerous place. IMO, it was directly due to Choices she'd made concerning her relationship with Lex. She admitted as much to Clark at the end of "Wrath".

                          However, I feel that Lex has been manipulating Lana and subtly 'grooming' and seducing her since their Partnership with the Talon. He started out trying to 'help' Clark win her affections, then he decided he wanted her for himself. He patiently waited for her to become old enough to accept his advances. She was too young and inexperienced, especially compared to Lex, to see what was happening. Clark is guilty of allowing it to happen since he didn't know how else to handle their relationship. That's what 'I' saw, and I believe that what TPTB wanted us to see.

                          I'm one of those who said "Let's wait and see what TPTB 'Do' with their storyline". I had seen the change in Lana last year and wondered 'just how' they were going to insert a "happily ever after" relationship following the events of last season. I think they're leading us down a Reasonable path with them.

                          Clark is going to have to willingly re-evaluate his previous preconceptions of Lana as the innocent young girl-next-door. TPTB do show us that she would 'like' to do good, but can't help herself when it comes to that underlying 'darkness' that makes her lash out defensively to ensure her own survival. I feel that Lex really does know her better than Clark at this point. It's sad, but if Smallville's creators are going to give us anything similar to the established mythos, it's a path that 'Had' to be taken. We're going on the emotional journey with them. I'm sure it's not what many people thought it was going to be like this season. So far, I'm Liking it.

                          Er...Khyla? I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your holiday Clark avi. Is that Tom's 'real' body, or is it a manip.? Because, I haven't seen that much of his beautiful body since his Phy. Ed. swim class when he was back in high school. I've never seen him that 'buff' either. Whoever that is, He's magnificent!

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by RJLCyberPunk
                            Only in Justice League Unlimited do we see him breaking loose on a villain Darkseid...
                            Only because he couldn't put a dent in Darkseid. Superman had nothing left, yet Darkseid still kept going.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Ditto!!

                              Originally posted by Imzadia

                              However, I feel that Lex has been manipulating Lana and subtly 'grooming' and seducing her since their Partnership with the Talon. ... She was too young and inexperienced, especially compared to Lex, to see what was happening.
                              I agree with the first part of your statement and i would add Lex has been manipulating everyone. It's his nature, but I would say that he saw it in Lana's nature too, that she was someone who could easily become like himself, if she wasn't already. They seemed to already share some similar attributes and she knew, and even anticipated and was excited by Lex's attention. There is a poster here who has an entire thread dedicated to this, and I myself pointed out several examples that also show this as an ongoing thing since Season 1. Even her disappointment that Lex wasn't going to "make her his queen" when he was back to normal, was so obvious at the end of S4 "Onyx"

                              ... but can't help herself when it comes to that underlying 'darkness' that makes her lash out defensively to ensure her own survival. ...
                              yes that is so "lana". As I posted before , Lana's such a "personal security hog".
                              Throughout the series AlMIles have presented us with a Lana whose "love" is and always has been dependent on which guy she perceived to be able to keep her safer and protect her better, while putting her on a pedestal; and whoever appears to have the most prestige and/or power.
                              Lex had the power and means to provide answers and solve the problem of keeping the world, and her, safe from an extraterrestrial attack, while providing her with safety and comfort.

                              She obviously had renewed interest in Clark only when she witnessed the powers he had.)

                              She's one who can easily cross the moral line to insure her "security", and expects that someone who truly loves her would do the same.

                              Er...Khyla? I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your holiday Clark avi. Is that Tom's 'real' body, or is it a manip.? Because, I haven't seen that much of his beautiful body since his Phy. Ed. swim class when he was back in high school. I've never seen him that 'buff' either. Whoever that is, He's magnificent! [/B]
                              It's a manip*. BUT we can pretend it's him! Glad you like it! I think i made a large version for my K-site Xmas wishes here last year.

                              (* some random underwear model. My hubby refused to sport those hot jingle-bell boxers , so i just had to manip them onto Clark. )
                              Last edited by Khyla; 11-27-2007, 09:23 PM.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by RJLCyberPunk
                                Truth be told Clark always walks a very fine line trying not to hurt people, animals or break things.But that does not mean he has never thought of it at one point or another. Remember that after he learned that Lana was seemingly dead he was just about ready to kill Lex. In the comics is pretty much the same thing. Superman for all intended purposes lives in a world of cardboard. Only in Justice League Unlimited do we see him breaking loose on a villain Darkseid...
                                There is a difference in what is happening in Smallville and what is happening in those comic situations. Clark purposely pulls his punches in the comics, so as not to hurt anyone. If he's unsure of an enemies strength, he guages it the only way he knows how, by working his way up the force meter. He starts off with as little force as possible, and as the situation, and other forces warrant it, increases it. Now if he fights someone like Darkseid, who can take everything he has, sure, he can haul off and belt him, but for most of the villains he faces he can't.

                                Smallville's Clark just hauls off and belts them, regardless of who they are, or what powers they may have.

                                Also, Clark in the comics, when presented with situations where someone he loves seemingly dies, doesn't jump into killer mode. The best possible example is where Manchester Black kills Lois in front of Superman, and laughs at him. Black has been trying to prove to Superman, and the world, that Superman is not the hero everyone thinks he is. That he's not committed to his own ideals. So he makes Clark think that he arrives just in time to watch Lois die. Clark is obviously devastated, and crying. For a brief moment, he thinks about how easily he could kill Black, but he puts that out of his head. He looks him dead in the eyes, and essentially says, you're going to jail, and I'm going to take you there in a minute, after he takes care of Lois. Black tries to goad him into violence, and Superman just ends up telling him, that he can run, hide or do whatever, but he will find him, and arrest him, and watch him be tried in a court of law. To do any less, and violate who he is, and what he stands for, would be an affront to Lois' memory.

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