Has Clark ever really crossed the moral line to save someone?

[Khyla]

Originally posted by Jaded Wolf
YEah which is why I just kind of blinked at the TV screen and went, "huh?". What ground does Lana have to based this on

That's the same way I felt!

They were just showing us more evidence that Lana doesn't really know Clark at all.

Just as he's made up his own idea in his head about who she really is, she's apparently done the same thing with him.

Originally posted by BadToad
As for the excessive force used on this show...and that doesn't just apply to Clark...I'm not going to hold that against any character. From the first season, the show has used that over-the-top, cartoonish sort of effect, and much more often then not, people come out of it unscathed, or with a little, bitty bruise over one eyebrow. Sure, we could see Clark carefully tapping people on the head to knock them out, but I think TPTB would also see that as far less visually entertaining, and they're right. People like their action and violence, and a gentile Clark is likely not going to cut it for most of the folks at home.

On the subject of Clark crossing the moral line, I think he has. But I think the difference, for me, is that its not a cold, calculated move from Clark. And it is almost always followed with some genuine reflection, or usually motivated by some extreme emotional event. Which isn't to suggest its right, only that it puts his behavior in context, and shows us someone that does seem to struggle with the moral line.

I think the real difference with Lana in this situation is the precise planning and cold execution, and the fact that this has been going for months. It suggests a whole other mindset then we've ever seen from Clark. He's lashed out violently in moments of extreme upset and despair. But a prolonged campaign of carefully planned vengeance? That I haven't seen from him.

Again, the 30' throws are a show thing, and that sort of unrealistic violence is evident all over the show. I don't see it as a Clark thing. YMMV.

EXACTLY!!!

Excellent post!! couldn't have said it better myself!

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by Khyla
They were just showing us more evidence that Lana doesn't really know Clark at all.

I took it that from a human perspective that it wasn't possible to save everyone without crossing some moral line.

The point about not knowing Clark I see some amount of truth to that. She hasn't watched him struggle to save everyone, hasn't seen him battle both physically and emotionally. In this, I think Chloe is only the person who knows what Clark has been through and really knows him. For Clark to tell Lana about everything he's been through in such a second hand way, isn't to know what it was really like to have actually been there and dealt with stuff.

[Mello Penelo]

Originally posted by BadToad
Huh??!! Are you talking about Clark here? He most certainly has NOT killed one person per episode.

How can you say he doesn't? Falling by their own hand. Bah. Clark killed Titan, for example. If Knox hadn't been immortal, he would have died. And Clark didn't care. Way back to the pilot. Clark killed the electric kid. When he super-tosses? A lot of people die.

He kills CONSTANTLY. That's why Smallville's Clark is terrible. If he were the real Clark, the REAL Clark from the comics, we wouldn't be having this discussion because he'd never kill anyone.

[BadToad]

How can you say he doesn't? Falling by their own hand. Bah. Clark killed Titan, for example. If Knox hadn't been immortal, he would have died. And Clark didn't care. Way back to the pilot. Clark killed the electric kid. When he super-tosses? A lot of people die.

Electric kid didn't die. In fact, he even asks Clark "where am I?" after they have their encounter. And No, when he super tosses, people don't die. In fact, they've shown numerous examples of people very much alive after supertosses, including Clark himself when he was supertossed by Eric. If there isn't a body, or someone saying "so-and-so is dead", then there ain't a death.

There wasn't anyway to deal with Titan other then facing him and fighting him to the death. What was Clark supposed to do, try reasoning with him? And even than, Titan fell on his own spike.

There was no intent to kill Knox, but he ended up hitting a fuse box.

I won't argue with you that the show definitely plays around on this point a little too much. But from the horses mouth, Gough, the idea that they are going for is that Clark doesn't try and kill anyone. He did say that it was a greyer area with the phantoms from the Phantom Zone. Thats the guy that runs the show, and he's telling you what they are trying to convey. Now, you may think they suck at the execution, and thats a fair point. But it doesn't change the intent.

He kills CONSTANTLY.

No, he really doesn't. Not IMO.

That's why Smallville's Clark is terrible.

I like him. If I didn't like him, I wouldn't be here. He's not perfect, he can be aggravating, I wish he was further along in some areas, I think he's got bad taste in girlfriends, and so on. But overall, I like him.

The show plays fast and loose with a lot of things, and this is one of them. But I do believe their intent is not that Clark is going out and killing people intentionally. And, IMO, that comes across more often then not. Though there are a few instances I wish they hadn't skirted the line quite so closely on.

If he were the real Clark, the REAL Clark from the comics, we wouldn't be having this discussion because he'd never kill anyone.

Well then, good thing there are those comic books out there for the folks that prefer that version

[All about Clark]

BadToad is right. You see alot of these guys getting handcuffed and taken to jail after Clark tossed them.

Clark has only one time when he intended to kill and that's Titan. The only time he thought he killed by accident, he didn't die.

The only other death I can think of was in Gone, when metallic guy was hit by Lois electricity and Clark's heat vision at the same time and no one could know how that would turn out and it wasn't Clark by himself that did that.

No one else has died. Wes shut himself down so as not to be used.

[CDLBLUE]

Much of it predicated on the concept of the morality of power and it's uses, Clark and Lex are the dichotomy of the concept, one uses it for the general good, the other for personal gain, one is selfless in it's excution and the other selfish, one will find his way to almost perfect virtue, and the other will go to the dark side, the story of Smallville is how they reached their preordained destinations, and the tragedy of Smallville is not the existence of a Superhero, but in this alternated universe, the necessity of one.

[DarkChilde]

Clark did state that he "intentionally" killed Titan.

As for morally wrong, using his abilities to win football games.

When the first Sheriff was killed, didn't he use his powers in the Roadhouse bar on one of the patrons.

But most of the time when he does something questionable, it is usually due to emotional distress.

[Mello Penelo]

Sheriff Ethan didn't die. He went to prison for attempted murder.

[Serynarpc]

Once. He bashed Chloe's doctor a bit more than necessary, but he turned out to be Immortal, so its all good.

As far as Lana using her footstool to get back on her high horse, I was hoping for a bit of Red K to magically appear so he could shove her hypocritical size 0 butt out of the barn window.

Lana had Clark's powers for 3.3 seconds and she was abusing her powers to get into Clark's pants (she's been whining that she hasn't been getting any) and then she went after Lex.

Its not weakness for Clark to show restraint in dealing with Lex. Its human nature not to go whack on a four year old with a Louisville Slugger, which equals out to Clark and Lex in a physical confrontation.

'Mortal' showed us a taste of how Clark would deal with Lex if he wasn't burdened with responsibility from being so much stronger than Lex. With his powers, all of the Kents caution of how he could accidentally hurt someone raised him to be very gentle with humans in close contact.

Heck, you need variations of Kryptionite to get him to lose it to an amusing degree. So no, Clark hasn't crossed the Grey line.

That would be Lana hopping back and forth over it like a little child's game of of Hopscotch.

[Imzadia]

In 'Cure'

Originally posted by Kryptonian-Ronin
I recall a certain conversation last week where Clark tells Lex how he "hated that he had to kill so save lex", or something along those lines.

I'm with you on this one, 'Kryptonian-Ronin'. All you others have reminded us of some 'accidental' incidences of suspect. However, in the eipsode "Cure", Clark actually admits to Lex, when Lex woke up in the hospital, that he hated that he had to 'Kill' someone to save his life...And that was 'Before' Clark knew that Dr. Knox 'couldn't' be killed. Even though Dr. Knox wasn't killed, clearly Clark thought that he'd killed him. If you get to watch it again, Notice Clark's expression after he throws Dr. Knox into that circuit box (maybe?) and the electricity arced. I think this incident might really qualify. Truthfully though, in Clark's defense, I believed that he was acting defensively to protect Lex from being killed.

Originally posted by Khyla
That's the same way I felt!

They were just showing us more evidence that Lana doesn't really know Clark at all.

Just as he's made up his own idea in his head about who she really is, she's apparently done the same thing with him.



EXACTLY!!!

Excellent post!! couldn't have said it better myself!

Ditto!!

[Khyla]

Originally posted by Serynarpc
...
Heck, you need variations of Kryptionite to get him to lose it to an amusing degree. So no, Clark hasn't crossed the Grey line.

That would be Lana hopping back and forth over it like a little child's game of of Hopscotch.

Love how you put it

[DarkChilde]

Originally posted by Mello Penelo
Sheriff Ethan didn't die. He went to prison for attempted murder.

That's right it has been a while, but it was the episode where Jonathon was framed for murder.

[HalJordan4184]

Re: In 'Cure'

Originally posted by Imzadia
Truthfully though, in Clark's defense, I believed that he was acting defensively to protect Lex from being killed.

Calrk can not claim that. It would never hold up in a court of law, nor does it hold up morally. Clark can move at speeds virtually unfathomable to humans. Clark is invulnerable, save Kryptonite being there, he has strength thousands of times that of a human being, he can shoot fire from his eyes, and hear a pin drop from orbit. He can not claim self defense or defense of another, in killing a normal human being. There is no reasonable threat of death or serious bodily harm, if Clark is even remotely near what's happening.

[anisette]

Originally posted by HalJordan4184

There have been so many instances of the bad guy falling on their own sword, while Clark watches it's not even funny. For the character they are trying to portray, that's over the moral line. No one dies on Clark Kent's watch if he can save them. That includes suicides, and indirectly killing yourself if you are the bad guy. However, CLark, the man who can run to honduras in two seconds, can't take any time to stop someone from running themselves through with a stake, falling off buildings, or any of the number of other ways bad guys have bitten the dust.

That's like telling Spiderman in the first movie to have saved the Green Goblin when the weapon was flying straight towards him. Clark, in all those instances, was trying to save himself. Even though he's extremely fast, there would have been no way for him to save those people.

For example: the tina greer death. Tina was coming towards him trying to kill him. He dodges out of the way and Tina impales herself onto the stake. Clark had his back to the stake. There was no way he could have known it was there, and by the time he realized it was there, Tina had already impaled herself on it.

While I agree with you about the Metropolis part, I disagree with you here. Clark always saves someone if it's in his power to do so. But sometimes, he is too late and you can't blame that on him.

I personally think there have been a few times when Clark has broken the moral code. The one that stands out in my mind is when he went back in time to save Lana at the cost of someone else's life, fully knowing it would take someone else's life. I also believe that in Pariah, and in Phantom with Tim, Lionel, and Lex, if there had been no interference, I believe Clark would have crossed the moral code. But the difference for me is that Clark has felt guilty for doing it, whereas, I don't see that guilt coming from Lana. I think if she had the chance to do it again, she would.

Originally posted by BadToad
Electric kid didn't die. In fact, he even asks Clark "where am I?" after they have their encounter. And No, when he super tosses, people don't die. In fact, they've shown numerous examples of people very much alive after supertosses, including Clark himself when he was supertossed by Eric. If there isn't a body, or someone saying "so-and-so is dead", then there ain't a death.

There wasn't anyway to deal with Titan other then facing him and fighting him to the death. What was Clark supposed to do, try reasoning with him? And even than, Titan fell on his own spike.

There was no intent to kill Knox, but he ended up hitting a fuse box.

I won't argue with you that the show definitely plays around on this point a little too much. But from the horses mouth, Gough, the idea that they are going for is that Clark doesn't try and kill anyone. He did say that it was a greyer area with the phantoms from the Phantom Zone. Thats the guy that runs the show, and he's telling you what they are trying to convey. Now, you may think they suck at the execution, and thats a fair point. But it doesn't change the intent.



No, he really doesn't. Not IMO.



I like him. If I didn't like him, I wouldn't be here. He's not perfect, he can be aggravating, I wish he was further along in some areas, I think he's got bad taste in girlfriends, and so on. But overall, I like him.

The show plays fast and loose with a lot of things, and this is one of them. But I do believe their intent is not that Clark is going out and killing people intentionally. And, IMO, that comes across more often then not. Though there are a few instances I wish they hadn't skirted the line quite so closely on.



Well then, good thing there are those comic books out there for the folks that prefer that version

Excellent post. You took the words right out of my mouth.

[HalJordan4184]

Originally posted by anisette
That's like telling Spiderman in the first movie to have saved the Green Goblin when the weapon was flying straight towards him. Clark, in all those instances, was trying to save himself. Even though he's extremely fast, there would have been no way for him to save those people.

For example: the tina greer death. Tina was coming towards him trying to kill him. He dodges out of the way and Tina impales herself onto the stake. Clark had his back to the stake. There was no way he could have known it was there, and by the time he realized it was there, Tina had already impaled herself on it.

While I agree with you about the Metropolis part, I disagree with you here. Clark always saves someone if it's in his power to do so. But sometimes, he is too late and you can't blame that on him.

I personally think there have been a few times when Clark has broken the moral code. The one that stands out in my mind is when he went back in time to save Lana at the cost of someone else's life, fully knowing it would take someone else's life. I also believe that in Pariah, and in Phantom with Tim, Lionel, and Lex, if there had been no interference, I believe Clark would have crossed the moral code. But the difference for me is that Clark has felt guilty for doing it, whereas, I don't see that guilt coming from Lana. I think if she had the chance to do it again, she would.

Actually, expecting Clark to, is not like expecting Spidey too. Spidey isn't Clark Kent, and isn't Superman. Spider-Man doesn't possess the powers, either in speed or strength, to stop things like the Green Goblin. If he could have saved him, would he? Probably. However, Spider-Man'
s speed and strength are nowhere near Clark's, and trying to save the GG, would likely have gotten spidey seriously injured or killed. If we took Clark and put him in the Green Goblin situation, he has every chance to save him. While that Glider was moving fast, for Clark, it would have been virtually standing still. There are anyone of a number of options he could use to save him.

So let's use an in show example, like Tina Greer. Tine Greer was going to hit Clark with a cappacino machine. Invulnerable, super strong Clark. Would it have hurt him? Being that it was in season two, maybe. Would it have killed him or caused any lasting harm? Definately no. What did he do instead? Superspeed out of the way, and then watch, from his supersped up perspective, as Tina Greer slowly impaled herself on a broken two by four. Why couldn't Clark save her? Really, there isn't an answer there, and even tptb have said, he watches the bad guy fall on their own sword. He's letting them do it, which is just as against Clark Kent's moral code, as murder.

And exactly what guilt does Clark show? He says he feels guilty, however, he never does anything about that. When the same situations come up, he still handles them the same way. So how exactly is he fixing things?