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  1. #1
    KryptonSite Moderator yellowqueen22's Avatar
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    Chlois (Chloe=Lois) Debate Thread [July 19 2006-December 6 2006]

    The Chlois Theory
    Chloe's Pseudonym; Chloe = Lois

    General Theory: Chloe Sullivan was the name Lois Lane was born with. The name Lois is a pen name that she now goes by on the regular


    Anti-Chlois Evidence:
    -Lois Lane already exists
    -Lois' father's name is Sam and her sister's name is Lucy
    -Lois has got an attitude
    -Lois smoked in the premier, like the movie-versions have.
    -Lois Lane generally doesn't back down from anything
    -Lois Lane has martial arts skills (comics, animated series, Smallville, Lois & Clark)
    -Lois Lane is a bad speller (Lois & Clark, the movies (old and new), Smallville)
    -Lois Lane calls Clark 'Smallville' as a nick name (animated series, comics, Smallville)
    -Lois Lane is a bad cook (Lois & Clark, comics, Smallville)
    -Lois Lane will go under cover for a story (comics, movies, Lois & Clark, Smallville, George Reeves series)
    -Lois Lane teases Clark Kent (comics, Lois & Clark, animated series, George Reeves series)
    -Lois Lane is not a computer hacker
    -Lois Lane is not a techno-geek
    -Lois Lane does not have a father named Gabe
    -Lois Lane did not have an unrequited crush on Clark Kent
    -Lois Lane has dated JLA Members OTHER than Superman/Clark

    Pro-Chlois Evidence:
    -Every year since Clark and Chloe have known each other they've shared a single kiss
    -Season one showed how they could have been if Lana wasn't a factor.
    -Season two showed Chloe read a letter to him that was personally handled by al/miles.
    -Season three we learn she never gave Lionel anything on Clark and had been protecting him in Metropolis. She breaks away from her crush and starts to pull out on her own.
    -In Delete she adopted Lois Lane as a pen name attached to an article.
    -Lois Lane's idol has always been Perry White & we learn in 'Perry' that Chloe's idol has always been Perry White.
    -In ALL versions of the comics when Lois is matched up against Clark's ex-girlfriends she is always the dowdy unkempt homely one while the other girls are vixens
    -Lois is never allowed a romantic interest outside of Clark/Superman, while Chloe has yet to get a boyfriend (although perhaps this is questionable given the recent Superman Returns)
    -In some versions Lois and Lana were roommates in college, in some versions Lois and Lori were roommates in college. Lana & Chloe are roomates in college.
    -Lois interned at the DP and was chronicled in a serial entry entitled "How I Spent My Summer Vacation". Chloe interned at the DP and was chronicled in the Smallville comic entry entitled "How I Spent My Summer Vacation"
    -Lois was the youngest reporter at the Daily Planet. Chloe was the youngest reporter at the Daily Planet.
    -One of the first humans to the Fortress of Solitude has always been Lois Lane. The first human to the Fortress of Solitude in Smallville was Chloe.
    -Lois activates Clark's super hearing. Chloe is the only one on the show who triggers Clark's super hearing, all the other times he has to focus to use it
    -Finally, Nellie Bly was the first female investigative reporter & was likely used as a template for Lois Lane. Nellie is Chloe's childhood idol.

    Borrowed and modified in part from Kal'sGirl's post in the previous threads.

    Feel free to request additional lines be added or lines to be edited to either of these, up to 20 line items each (to keep it readable).
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Debate Thread Rules
    History
    The original Chlois Debate Thread started when the first spoilers for episode 311, Delete, were leaked. The spoilers indicated that Chloe was going to try to write for the Daily Planet under the name Lois Lane. Since then, it's become a very active thread discussing prior and upcoming SV canon, canon from other shows/movies/comics in the Supermanverse, and sometimes even Joe Campbell, Cinderella, or other miscellaneous references pop-up.

    In December, 2005, the first thread hit so many posts that it was problematic to continue loading it and filter through to find past arguments and quote them, so we opened up a second thread. The second thread quickly reached nearly 500 pages within 7 month's time.

    The debate thread continues to exist because of the passionate opinions both Pro-Chlois and Anti-Chlois fans have.

    Debating
    This is a debate thread!!!! There will be pro-Chloisers here. There will be anti-Chloisers here. Both are encouraged to give their opinions, state their reasons, provide support for their arguments, and engage in a healty & positive debate. And both parties will be listened to at all times.

    To that end, please respect all viewpoints on this thread. Although the nature of a debate thread is heated, please follow the general K-Site Rules at all times. Please pay particular attention to the following rules:

    3) We do not allow threats or insinuations of violence toward anyone, including the actors and production teams of the shows/movies discussed on these boards.

    10) DISCUSSION ON THIS BOARD SHOULD AT ALL TIMES BE ABOUT THE SHOWS THEMSELVES, NOT OURSELVES, THE BOARDS, OTHER POSTERS OR OTHER FANS.
    -- This includes comments calling pro-chloisers or anti-chloisers stupid, deluded, or any other insulting term.
    -- This includes psychoanalyzing the reasons other members of the board feel the way they do
    -- This includes turning debates into personal attacks against other posters. While the nature of debate requires you to post in response to other poster's points, please do not turn the debate into a negative attack against the poster.

    11) If your post was edited by a Moderator, DO NOT re-edit out the moderator's remarks.

    12) LEAVE THE MODERATING TO THE ACTUAL MODERATORS. DO NOT attempt to "put another poster in his/her place." Instead please use the Report Post link if you feel that someone is breaking the board rules or if something needs the attention of a Moderator.

    13) If you feel you need to discuss a matter with a particular moderator, please do so via PM. Please REFRAIN from commenting (even agreeing) in a thread to a Moderator's warning as it does not add to the thread but to make it off topic.

    14) This board is for the discussion of anything about the shows we cover, whether it is positive or negative. Everyone has a right to their opinions, so making statements like "how can you all think this way" or "why does everybody hate....." is prohibited. Making remarks like "You're all just jealous"... is considered flaming!

    15) At no point should anyone tell anyone else, "If you don't like it then stop watching." People are allowed to have their opinions, even if that opinion is that Smallville/ Veronica Mars/ etc. is a terrible show.

    Reminders
    Because of the nature of these threads, we request that you try to read up on some of the ideas already presented. We will provide a crash course later this week in this very post for those of you who don't want to read through thousands of posts to participate.

    The first thread can be found here .

    The second thread can be found here

    Consider this a reminder to re-read the rules/TOS. If you have a problem with another poster take it to PM or contact a moderator.

    Spoilers, obviously, will be talked about in this thread.

    If you want to link something, PM Veaglarwen or Chiriru or one of the other mods first.

    If you do not wish to debate but still want your opinion to be heard, please go to the General Discussion Thread!!!

    Basic Assumptions:

    What is SV Canon?
    Smallville canon includes anything written by the producers/writers of the show which is designed to be a part of the Official Smallville Universe. That includes Chronicles, Comic Books, Torch and Ledger articles, Verizon Commercials, Novelizations, etc.

    What about media?
    You are welcomed to post media here but be sure that it is always always always posted in the Chlois media thread first. This thread gets so large and moves so fast that we need an easy place to refer to the media so all media discussed in the Debate thread SHOULD be found in the media thread.

    Smallville does what it wants
    The Chlois theory is based on the knowledge that Smallville is rewriting/reimagining/reimaing the superman mythology. This means that anything goes and any character's backstory can be changed (i.e. Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman).
    Does this mean that they can make Lois Lane not interseted in journalism? Of course. But it also means they can change Lois' history to be the Lois Lane who was once called Chloe Sullivan as well, and that is the avenue we are branching down for this thread.

    Can I state things like 'Lois is Lois and Chloe is Chloe'?
    No. That goes in gen thread. This is the debate thread, all statements must come with some sort of support. This thread is based on the assumption that something is not something else.
    Last edited by Tabbymarie; 12-06-2006 at 11:06 AM.

  2. #2
    KryptonSite Moderator Tabbymarie's Avatar
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    I suggest starting the debate off by working on the main points listed above. This wil eventually spawn into more discussion. This is not meant to be a "carry over from our previous discussion" although if you really feel the need to continue on in those subjects, do so.

    But yes, I suggest hitting the prime points of the theory first, that way if anyone wants to read up on it, its all here in the first few pages anyway.

  3. #3
    Forum Whiz chunkeymonkey1981's Avatar
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    In ALL versions of the comics when Lois is matched up against Clark's ex-girlfriends she is always the dowdy unkempt homely one while the other girls are vixens
    Well I would hardly call Chloe *dowdy* but the show sure has treated her as such sometimes....

    Anti-Chlois Evidence:
    -Lois Lane already exists
    -Lois' father's name is Sam and her sister's name is Lucy
    -Lois has got an attitude
    -Lois smoked in the premier, like the movie-versions have.
    Well it looks as if we have alot more evidence to the pro side--but I am not that surprised. I thought there was more though for Lois? Maybe not...the attitude thing though--Chloe defintely has one as well, she just uses it in moderation. If she used it to the extent of EDLois we woulod probably gripe about that too.


    Anyways--yay for a new thread!

  4. #4
    KryptonSite Moderator Tabbymarie's Avatar
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    There probably is more for lois but i had to create the list on the fly lol. If y'all wanna help get both lists to 20 items each, that's cool by me.

  5. #5
    Incurable Postaholic EllenF's Avatar
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    Well it looks as if we have alot more evidence to the pro side--but I am not that surprised. I thought there was more though for Lois?
    Also, EDLois can't spell, harkening back to the movies, and EDLois has brown hair, as opposed to Chloe, whose hair is obviously not the right color for IconicLois. Yes, it's bleached, but still, she hasn't ever let it get close to what you could call brunette, and didn't even in the glimpse of the future we saw in "Lexmas." And EDLois' father isn't simply Sam Lane; he's General Sam Lane, as in the comics, and she was raised an Army brat and can kick b*tt in a way that Chloe can't, again as in the comics. (Although when it comes to wielding rolling pins, Chloe rules!)

    Here's to the new thread! Hooray!

  6. #6
    KryptonSite Moderator Chiriru's Avatar
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    Modern AGe comics, Ellen. Lois' back story has changed a lot over the past 60-some years. Not ever Sam was a general.

    I don't think the fact that Chloe is a *natural* brunette is anything other than an equalizer either.

    Additioanlly, Chloe's VOs in Thirst were added in last minute by the PTB. Up, up, and Away (which also is the title of the New Earth/ 1YL series.)

  7. #7
    Incurable Postaholic EllenF's Avatar
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    Modern AGe comics, Ellen. Lois' back story has changed a lot over the past 60-some years. Not ever Sam was a general.
    Sure, but Modern Age represents the past twenty years, and is what most readers of the comics are familiar with. (In LnC I think he was a scientist, and I don't think the movies said, but in the modern comics he's consistently been a general.) I'd say that's a point in EDLois' favor, wouldn't you? And people often come onto the thread and say, "But Chloe has blonde hair!!" so I'd think that's a valid point in favor of EDLois, too. Yes, canon indicates Chloe's naturally brunette-- but she's never ever worn her hair that way at any time on the show. She obviously thinks of herself as a blonde ("I'm the slickest blonde you'll ever meet") and I think you could argue that she's obviously pretty attached to her blondeness by now.

    I'm kinda hoping she comes back from the summer break with brown hair, actually, but I don't suppose it's likely .
    Last edited by EllenF; 07-19-2006 at 01:45 PM.

  8. #8
    KryptonSite Moderator Chiriru's Avatar
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    Well Modern Age represents the past twenty years. That's the thing Byrne Era/Iron Age is changed. It's done.

    We're on Birthright now. :P Which is telling, we don't know much about Lois' backstory excpet she had a dad.

    I think it's a point in her favor but one has got to clarify. She has the Modern Age family, not the Golden or Silver or Birthright - you see what I mean.

    And yes I do see and get your point. I'm just saying that's yet another way of keeping the girls equal. Like picking up men that are bad for them. Like "trusting" a Luthor. On and on and on.

  9. #9
    Forum Whiz chunkeymonkey1981's Avatar
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    Ok we have the bad spelling, the kicking of the butts(which Chloe can do when needed--more of a scrappy type of fighting then formalized training) , the brown hair(which canon states Chloe dies her hair so..)----maybe its all the cheesy anvils that keep coming to mind when I am thinking of Lois *evidence* ...Cause I mean, is that really it? I am drawing a blank here..

    I guess you can say she has bravado--but thats the same as attitude.


    Honestly the *anti* points against EDLois are much more numerous...

    Okay Chloe is whomping her badly here....(which I have no prob with)

  10. #10
    Incurable Postaholic EllenF's Avatar
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    Ok we have the bad spelling, the kicking of the butts(which Chloe can do when needed--more of a scrappy type of fighting then formalized training) ...
    Right. I'm not suggesting Chloe's a wimp, as people sometimes do. Right off the top of my head I can think of two men she's taken down, and that's pretty impressive for a small, slight woman. But EDLois has the formalized training like the Lois of the Modern Age (see, Chiri, I remembered ) comics does.

    Um... *thinking* Would the fact that EDLois wrote an editorial in "Facade" that apparently touched some people count as a pro-EdLois thing, do you suppose? It's really the only thing she's ever done that could even remotely be thought of as journalism, but she did seem to get some positive response from the student body, which suggests she may have some writing talent when she chooses to exert it.
    Last edited by EllenF; 07-19-2006 at 01:57 PM.

  11. #11
    KryptonSite Moderator Chiriru's Avatar
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    Yay for specifics!

    Yep - she does have that but the men I know she's taken down are her father's men. EDLois has actually done worse in fights and standing up for her self than others.

    I think Gone is biggest example with Trent.

    - Chloe's guards get shot, she gets kidnapped, she still gets away; the professional hit man catches her.
    - Lois digs up a grave mid day, gets sliced; and Lana Lang takes care of the girl.

    Formally trained girl saved by a Luthor trained girl. Scrapper girl nearly gets away.

    I always have found that interesting.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular heavens_cry's Avatar
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    Originally posted by EllenF
    Also, EDLois can't spell, harkening back to the movies, and EDLois has brown hair, as opposed to Chloe, whose hair is obviously not the right color for IconicLois. Yes, it's bleached, but still, she hasn't ever let it get close to what you could call brunette, and didn't even in the glimpse of the future we saw in "Lexmas." And EDLois' father isn't simply Sam Lane; he's General Sam Lane, as in the comics, and she was raised an Army brat and can kick b*tt in a way that Chloe can't, again as in the comics. (Although when it comes to wielding rolling pins, Chloe rules!)

    Here's to the new thread! Hooray!


    That would mean that niether of them have the right color.. If you look in the old thread on page 433 where Chiriru
    Scanned the pages from the comics, the lois in there all had Black hair not brown or blonde.. One had long hair and one had really weird short hair.. So if we look at those scans then niether of them have the right hair color.. So IMO the color of hair isn't that big of a deal.

    I aso read that the original lois called clark smallville or farm boy as well.. I am for CHlois I just thought I would mention that and see if it was true.
    Last edited by heavens_cry; 07-19-2006 at 02:12 PM.

  13. #13
    Incurable Postaholic EllenF's Avatar
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    Yep - she does have that but the men I know she's taken down are her father's men. EDLois has actually done worse in fights and standing up for her self than others.
    In "Devoted" EDLois knocked over five (I think it was five) guys with one kick. Which was very impressive. Her mistake was in not leaving with Chloe and Clark, so that Clark had to come back and save her. She can definitely kick b*tt, but she lacks judgment. Which is two separate issues, I think.

    That would mean that niether of them have the right color.. If you look in the old thread on page 433 where Chiriu(sorry if spelt wrong) Scanned the pages from the comics, the lois in there all had Black hair not brown or blonde..
    Are we talking about the current comics? Because in the Modern Age, it seems to me her was mostly varying shades of brown, from reddish to very dark. But according to Wikipedia, most of the rest of the time she's had black hair. So yes, it varies, but I don't believe she's generally been depicted as blonde. This is something that most antis seem to mention quite often, so I think it's a noticeable issue to a lot of viewers. Oddly, they've lightened EDLois' hair since she first came on, but I'd still characterize her as (barely) brunette.

    ETA: And heavens cry is right-- I'd say that EDLois' tendency to call Clark "Smallville" is a Lois trait, even though in this context many of us find it annoying. I don't know when ComicsLois started calling him "Smallville," but I remember seeing it in "Superman For All Seasons."
    Last edited by EllenF; 07-19-2006 at 02:13 PM.

  14. #14
    KryptonSite Moderator Chiriru's Avatar
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    In Devoted? Wasn't that the one where Clark heatvisioned the pipe so she specifically wouldn't fight? Remind me of the scene you are talking about, cause I don't remember "Five in a Kick."

    Are we talking about the current comics?
    Yes, the current comics have gone back to the Modern Age color of black.

    She has dyed her hair blonde a few times and I'm actually working on a post of "Lois as a Blonde" for the next day or too.

    Annette O'Toole says on the S4 Crusade commentary that it's interesting that in SV, Lois is a blonde.
    Last edited by Chiriru; 07-19-2006 at 02:36 PM.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Kalael's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Chiriru
    In Devoted? Wasn't that the one where Clark heatvisioned the pipe so she specifically wouldn't fight? Remind me of the scene you are talking about, cause I don't remember "Five in a Kick."

    Are we talking about the current comics?/quote]

    Yes, the current comics have gone back to the Modern Age color of black.

    She has dyed her hair blonde a few times and I'm actually working on a post of "Lois as a Blonde" for the next day or too.

    Annette O'Toole says on the S4 Crusade commentary that it's interesting that in SV, Lois is a blonde.
    Don't forget, in the Wedding Album her hair was red/auburn. I also have some comics from 88 and 89 that show her with reddish brown hair, so hair color is a rather weak argument to use against Chloe being Lois, especially as Chloe is not a natural blonde and we have not seen her natural hair color yet, she could have black hair for all we know.

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