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  • #16
    Yeh I know he was being selfless...for once He'd only do that for Martha though,I doubt he'd do it for Lex even!

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    • #17
      Martha and Chloe would be my two.

      Lana? FORGET IT!

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      • #18
        Oh, if something was to put Martha in danger, I don't doubt that he would throw Lionel about a bit - but I can't see that happening based on this episode and the sacrafice Lionel was willing to make for Martha. That's the reason I don't think there is anything in it. He was with JK when he died, yes we know that Clark knows this from what JK told him near death but this doesn't mean he actually killed him necessarily. Clark has to take some blame for running off in Season 3.

        Originally posted by Krypto500
        Martha and Chloe would be my two.

        Lana? FORGET IT!
        Same here! Lana really ticks me off.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by smids
          Oh, if something was to put Martha in danger, I don't doubt that he would throw Lionel about a bit - but I can't see that happening based on this episode and the sacrafice Lionel was willing to make for Martha. That's the reason I don't think there is anything in it.
          But perhaps this episode is the starting point for even grander deception on Lionel's part? Clark is far from convinced that Lionel has turned over a new leaf. And he just keeps on getting closer to Martha.

          This was Clark's way of saying "Hurt her, and I hurt you!". It's the only time I can recall Clark (in his right mind, i.e. not on red or silver K) making a threat of any kind. That's why I think it should be taken very seriously.

          Incredibly well acted by Tom Welling, that scene. All three of the lead guys were on top form this week, but that scene in particular just achieved so much: brought the Lionel/Jor-El story forward, changed his relations with Clark, changed the way we look at Lionel AND Clark (come on, this young Superman was SCARY!), and showed even more concretely how determined Clark is to protect the people he cares about.

          Re: Clark not being too bothered if Lionel hurt Lana.



          Clark: "Go on, DO it - I DOUBLE-DARE you! She broke up with ME, see if I care!"

          Does anyone have any thoughts on the brief Lexana? Thought the chess thing was more thoughtful than the usual Lex-behind-the-desk-when-Lana-bursts-in-to-interrogate-him.

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          • #20
            She'll be all over him soon enough. Once she's got you on her radar, I'm afraid you're on the rollercoaster of angst, guilt and self loathing that she thrusts upon you.

            I too am not convinced by Lionel but it remains to be seen.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by smids
              Once she's got you on her radar, I'm afraid you're on the rollercoaster of angst, guilt and self loathing that she thrusts upon you.
              "Run! Run for your lives! SAVE YOURSELVES!"

              *Deep, husky, Marlon Brando-type voice* "The "Jurassic Park"-like stomping can be heard approaching in the distance. Glasses of water ripple. The stomping gets closer and closer, until it's hanging over you like a shadow. Lana appears. The eyes focus on you. A single, enormous, razor-sharp tooth fills your view. You know it's too late. She's got you on her radar ... 'ENOUGH!' she bellows, 'NO MORE SECRETS AND LIES!' With that, she bites down, ripping your entrails apart. Then, satisfied with her work, the Lana-Beast folds her mighty arms, turns around and stomps off into the distance, back to the cess-pool Lana-land from whence she came ..."

              But hey, it's Lex, he won't let himself be bullied the way Clark did. Did anyone else notice the kind of role-reversal between him and Lionel at the mansion? Lex calling Lionel "a valuable asset" to Luthorcorp and gloating over how much he enjoyed watching his father be humiliated at the Apex failure? Lex is the one with all the power ... even Lana can't hurt him!

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              • #22
                You, my friend, seem to underestimate the Lana-beast's adapability to a hostile environment.

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                • #23
                  Evening all!
                  I hope you're happy psycosis - this episode has prompted almost as many posts in 24 hours as Fragile did in a whole week!
                  And rightly so. This episode was BIG, and I don't care what people say about the Saw rip-off! If anything it surpassed the film because I actually cared about the characters involved AND it allowed for all sorts of developments in terms of plot and characterisation.
                  Well I never thought I would say this but fair play to Lionel! When he pulled that gun out I thought that's it, he's going to shoot Martha Kent. He IS evil to the core! But not only was he willing to sacrifice himself for the woman he loves, but he was also prepared to give himself up for the sake of humanity (ie. Clark/Superman's pastoral care). And how well did John Glover portray his character in this episode?!
                  But that's not even the best part of that scene. Clark and Lex were witness to it! Lex is standing next to his nemesis listening to his father talk about the future Superman!!! And the look that Lex gave him........what a scene!

                  That was fantastic in itself but then you've got Lex looking down-right annoyed when Clark speeds off, Clark eye-balling Lionel through the lift, a quite frankly awesome exchange between Lex and Lionel, Clark threatening Lionel in a way that NO-ONE has done before, and a collapsing MB furiously scribbling something no doubt extremely important. I'm trying not to write an essay, I really am!
                  psycosis - I know you and I can gang up on Krypto with regards to Jor-el, but Lex HAS to know more than he is letting on. Yes it infuriates him that his father is party to certain knowledge, but Lex's look when Clark disappeared, along with the comments about his truck, getting across town in no time at all, touching the Clark-shaped hole in the wall.....all these things remind me of what we have discussed on other episode threads: that Lex just wishes he could SEE Clark do these things, that it would all just fall into place were he to witness Clark perform a miracle. I think Lionel's response to being saved backs this up: he has been downloaded with all sorts of information and yet even he was physically dazed and confused by what he had just seen Clark do. What Lex would give for another moment like Shattered!!

                  How brutal was Lionel in that scene with Lex? I think Lex gave up trying to earn his father's love long ago (probably in Memoria), but hearing that Clark could be the kind of son his father would respect is just the sort of thing to send Lex even further down his dark path. I don't normally gush about particular scenes but the way the two men stood (Lex in the foreground, Lionel in the back; Lex bathed in red light, Lionel in profile) was just magnificent.
                  We discussed Lionel's intentions for Clark at the end of Cyborg and there were all sorts of possibilities then. What do people make of it now? When Clark confronted Lionel at the end, the MB had a look of utter disdain, hatred even. I got the feeling that he saw Clark's threats as empty. Maybe he is aware of Superman's inability to do harm to others (not knowingly at least). And in terms of being scared of Clark he is already fully aware of the effects of Kryptonite. But this doesn't equate with the speech that Lionel gave Martha before pulling the trigger in the lift. Does this mean that sometimes Jor-el influences him (the headaches?) while at others the original Lionel comes to the fore? As much as I have enjoyed S5 I don't think there has been an episode that has got me pondering so many elements of the WHOLE Smallville story for a long time. Like I said, this episode was BIG!
                  Last edited by Lex Dance; 05-16-2006, 03:50 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Hello Lex Dance, awesome post as always!

                    Couple of things in there I was hoping to discuss:

                    Originally posted by Lex Dance
                    But not only was [Lionel] willing to sacrifice himself for the woman he loves...
                    Think this might be the first time I've read someone say it directly. Would everyone agree with this - Lionel really LOVES Martha? His words in the final scene with TW were "someone I care very deeply about", but would you say he loves her? I'm really not sure, but you might be right.

                    We discussed Lionel's intentions for Clark at the end of Cyborg and there were all sorts of possibilities then. What do people make of it now?
                    Clark doesn't trust him at all. Martha's not sure. I'm naive and think Lionel really might be trying to help Clark. Especially after this episode. I've mentioned in another thread that I see this as a Scrooge analogy - that Lionel finally sees how he needs to change and help Clark become "the man this world so desperately needs".

                    When Clark confronted Lionel at the end, the MB had a look of utter disdain, hatred even. I got the feeling that he saw Clark's threats as empty.
                    This seems to be the popular opinion

                    I'll have to watch it again, but I felt Clark really had him scared rather than disdainful or hateful. And, as I've mentioned earlier, I think Lionel realises that Clark is extremely protective of Martha and will likely go berserk if anything happens to her.

                    Maybe he is aware of Superman's inability to do harm to others (not knowingly at least).
                    That, of course, is true. Except when it's a last resort. And even then, Superman will find another solution. This is the whole "Vengeance" issue again ... would Clark be willing to kill a villain? Of course not. Even so, this scene seemed to show Clark throwing off the gloves and saying he wouldn't care about a code of right and wrong if Martha is ever hurt by Lionel. I completely bought that, I thought it was totally consistent with his character post-"Reckoning".

                    Does this mean that sometimes Jor-el influences him (the headaches?) while at others the original Lionel comes to the fore?


                    I think it's entirely Lionel, with Jor-El having only appeared in "Hidden" when he needed to revive Clark, and now when Jor-El needs to send some kind of communication to the corporeal world. That said, I'd be curious to know what else Lionel gathered during his "contemplative repose". Clark was a bit dumb by not asking. Lionel might know even more than Clark.

                    As much as I have enjoyed S5 I don't think there has been an episode that has got me pondering so many elements of the WHOLE Smallville story for a long time. Like I said, this episode was BIG!
                    Agreed, it was a delightful surprise.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Krypto500
                      I thought this one showed Lex's suspicions about Clark even more than in "Hypnotic". The dialogue between Lex and Lionel next to the elevator shaft: "One moment he's standing next to me, the next he's on the other side of town". He's definitely realising that there's something abnormal about Clark.

                      Why does everyone think that Clark was "p***ed" at Lionel or "furious" with him at the end?! I didn't interpret it that way at all. There was hatred in his eyes, but I think Clark was completely in control. That's what made it scary - the silence and calmness when Clark threatened that Lionel would regret being saved by him.
                      Lex is waiting for that moment when he sees Clark doing something super - but until that time I think he will always have that shadow of doubt, he will never truly believe it himself until he sees it with his own eyes - something that seemed to be shown with Lionel, he knew everything there was to know about Clark and was still amazed at his "miraculous" display of strength.

                      Well the sheer look of burning HATE going through Clark’s eye's was the giveaway but seriously I do agree with you he was completely in control with his anger - that was the truly scary thing, he could have sent him flying there and then, but decided to give him a very serous warning.

                      You are all saying Superman won't/can't kill - but he's not Superman at this moment, and he never really swears that oath to himself until after he "rids the world" of Zod - Clark has his dark side and it was great to see it without the aid of red k or anything else!
                      Though even with that in mind I very seriously doubt, we'll see Clark go over the edge.
                      Last edited by psycosis; 05-17-2006, 04:30 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by psycosis
                        Lex is waiting for that moment when he sees Clark doing something super - but until that time I think he will always have that shadow of doubt ...
                        But this week he VOICED that doubt so clearly! It wasn't just a suspicious expression or a confused look, we saw Lex thinking aloud and expressing that complete disbelief. I think it drilled home just how little trust there is left between Lex and Clark. Which makes Lex's hope that he and Clark could "find some common ground" so sad.

                        ... I very seriously doubt, we'll see Clark go over the edge.
                        Probably not. I think the lid on that closed with "Vengeance". Which, if true, is a shame. It might be intriguing to see how far a villain needs to go before Clark/Superman snaps. We know that the death of someone he loves is enough to send him spinning the Earth on its axis, anyway.

                        This show is about fleshing out the character, it's about exploring and challenging our preconceptions of Clark AND Superman. The Superman-never-kills rule is one assumption which should be examined in much more detail than it got in "Vengeance".

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Krypto500
                          Which makes Lex's hope that he and Clark could "find some common ground" so sad.

                          It might be intriguing to see how far a villain needs to go before Clark/Superman snaps. We know that the death of someone he loves is enough to send him spinning the Earth on its axis, anyway.
                          Do you think there is "common ground"? And would you want to see it explored???
                          knowing that like me your all for evil Lex I think you’d rather them stay distant - it would be a shame to go back from the darker direction they have taken Lex, in some ways maybe Clark wishes he could start to trust Lex again - but with all that’s happened in the past I don't think he could forget it so easily, plus not to mention that Lana is more interested in Lex - something Clark is sure to be jealous of.

                          Forgetting Superman II? A villain has to destroy all the things Clark holds most dear. What if Lionel tried to hurt Martha, or Lex - Lana I wonder how far they would have to push - it would indeed be an interesting insight.
                          Perhaps they could make a "What if...?" ep - there is a comic book even dedicated to raising such questions named the same, so it's not like it not within the realms of plausibility.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by psycosis
                            Do you think there is "common ground"? And would you want to see it explored???
                            There's probably very little common ground. That's why it was so tragic. You could argue that Lex was just being opportunistic and manipulating Clark, but why would he?

                            I think Lex was actually trying to be optimistic and patch things up with the only real friend he's ever seemed to have. I thought that was very moving.

                            ... knowing that like me your all for evil Lex I think you’d rather them stay distant - it would be a shame to go back from the darker direction they have taken Lex, in some ways maybe Clark wishes he could start to trust Lex again ...
                            Of course, I agree with you there. There can never be enough evil Lex on the show.

                            Do you think Clark wants to trust Lex again? See, this for me is what makes Clark un-Superman-ly (now THAT'S a word! ). For the past few episodes it's consistently been Lex making the effort to revive their friendship. All Clark does is glare. Not sure if that's him holding a grudge or being an unforgiving $%@#, but it makes me want to side with Lex every time.

                            Perhaps they could make a "What if...?" ep - there is a comic book even dedicated to raising such questions named the same, so it's not like it not within the realms of plausibility.
                            They sort of already have, I think: "Fever" in S2 (Lana finding out about Clark), "Slumber" in S3 (Lex smashing the sword against Clark), even "Splinter" this season (Clark finding out that Lana and Lex are together).

                            But you're right, an episode which concentrated on challenging Clark's ethics and moral code would be worth seeing.

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                            • #29
                              I've never seen SAW. In what way is this ep similar?

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                              • #30
                                Guy gets put in life-or-death situations as part of a torture game.

                                Guy sees video footage of how other people have 'failed' these torture games.

                                Guy finds out that the torture games are being orchestrated by Villain with scary (/silly) mask and voice synthesizer.

                                Did I miss anything?

                                Come on, though, it was only a small part of a larger episode. We can forgive it! What DeKnight lacked in originality here he made up for with infinite creativity in the Lionel-Lex-Clark development.

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