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Bad Lex... Is Clark To Blame?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Dannyblue1
    If Clark had told Lex his secret early on, I think it would've totally changed the outcome of the story. The only thing standing between Clark and Lex has been the secret. Without it, they would've forged a friendship that would be pretty hard to break. Having Clark trust him, not being lied to constantly by his best friend, there's no way Lex would be as close to darkness as he is now.

    Also, I think Lex would've protected Clark and the secret. We've seen how far Lex is willing to go to protect others. (In "Memoria", "Zero", countless other episodes.) And I think that same need to protect would've applied to Clark. Heck, Lex has gone out of his way to protect Clark even without knowing the secret. If anything, knowing the secret (and having a better relationship with Clark) would've just made him more protective.

    And, considering how Lex is, I think he would've becoming downright obsessive about proving himself worthy of the secret Clark entrusted him with, which would mean not exploiting it.
    I agree 100%

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    • #62
      Remember how Pete reacted in "Duplicity" when Clark told him the secret. I think Lex will react a million times worse.

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      • #63
        i think he would have either way he probably would have blackmailed clark

        like in 5.4 Aqua he told AC that he has a thirst for knowledge and it never seems to get quenched

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        • #64
          Clark's distrust and barely plausible lies show Lex a lack of respect that best friends should not show to each other. I don't entirely blame Clark for not telling Lex; after all, Lex went berserk on Chloe in "Commencement", and he HAS been involved with other questionable wheelings and dealings, but all in all, I think Clark should have trusted Lex. Lex has always been trustworthy when it comes to being a good friend to Clark, and he's always helped get him out of jams, just as Clark has done for Lex. The two had such a strong bound, one of brotherly love, and I think he'd be just as trustworthy, and ultimately a better keeper of the secret than Pete, because he is more mature than Pete and very intelligent. I think Clark and Lex could've joined forces to save mankind, together, Lex's brain, Clark's super-powers, Lex's resources, Clark's altruism. The two could've been a dynamic duo. But instead, Clark just couldn't see past the name "Luthor", even though Lex has proved to him so many times he's trustworthy. Now, there ARE reasons for Clark's distrust too. So ultimately, it's very two-sided, and that's why it's one of my favorite issues on the show to analyze.

          If you notice, Lex didn't really start to act so Luthor-like until "Commencement" and "Arrival". In "Arrival", you could see his inner demons coming out. But we all have inner demons. I think those demons could've been controlled if, in that scene when Lex asks Clark to be honest with him, Clark had just told him the truth, or at least a more plausible lie than the one he had told him. But instead, Clark just told him what was an obvious lie. "Were you in the caves when the meteors hit?" "No." At THAT very moment, you see Lex give this look of evil, but also, for a second, a look of sorrow. He's lost his friend. And after that, we see that Lex clearly unleashes his demons, not caring anymore, because he knows that even his "best friend" doesn't trust him. No one trusts him, so why should he be able to trust himself?

          Now that's not to say that he's not responsible for his own actions. He certainly is. Everyone controls their own destiny, I believe. And I think Lex will not continue to be a victim anymore. He'll be ruthless because he choses to be (and also because of his vision in "Lexmas", a truly tragic episode).

          Personally, I believe that no one's nature is to be evil, I think we're all born good, and sometimes other people or life can corrupt us. I think that's what's happened to Lex. He's not bad just because he was born into a bad enviornment, he's bad because his father has mentally abused him, his best friend has lied to him, and all the women he's loved have tried to kill him. Many people raised by bad parents turn out to be fine, great people, but Lex also has this extra burden of no one trusting him, not even those he loves. That could get to even the strongest of heroes and help turn them to VILLAINS.
          Last edited by LuthorRequiem2; 01-29-2006, 09:45 PM.

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          • #65
            "If Lex had arrived in Smallville and found someone who would trust him, support him, stand by him, forgive him, etc., his story would have taken a different tack. For a time, it looked like Clark would be that person. But, as it turned out, Clark wasn’t capable of filling that role"
            " Lex would be vastly more dangerous to anyone and everyone close to Clark had he known the secret. Lex lost the battle to be good when his mother died and he was left to be reared by Lionel." I don't knowwhat to believe I can understand the support for both aguements. I have pondered this question for along time and am begining to believe that if Clark had been more of a friend Lex, it might have saved him from turning evil a little longer but that he would have been evil regradless because of his father.

            Hugo

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            • #66
              "Smallville" has made it pretty clear that Lex's destiny was not fixed: he could have ended up a good guy. (And in parallel comic-book universes, he does.)

              I agree with those who think Lex's future would have been a lot different if Clark had shared his secret with him in the early seasons. He *might* have still gone evil - he's certainly got a lot going against him in the family history dept. But by sharing his secret with Lex, Clark would have given Lex what he always wanted - a family to belong to.

              No matter how many times Lex helped the Kents, no matter how many times JK decided Lex was different from his father, Lex could never really be part of the Kent family because he didn't know the secret. And he *knows* they're keeping a family secret. So he keeps digging, and the two obsessions fuel each other - to know the secret, he has to be a Kent; to be a Kent, he has to know the secret.

              If Lex *had* been told in S. 1, 2 or even 3... I think he'd have protected Clark's secret. He and Clark would have been closer - become the "brothers" Lex had always hoped they'd be. The Kents would have provided a strong moral influence in Lex's life to counteract Lionel's "education." And Lex would have someone he could trust to talk to about his problems- no more private blood transfusions, near-death experiences and going crazy by himself in the mansion.

              Would it have tipped the balance? Probably. After all, if Lex is still struggling to be good after 20-odd years of Lionel's abuse, what could he accomplish with the Kents to help him?

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              • #67
                I don't think so. Lex's main problem has been his insistence on continuously challenging his father in the corporate arena, further ingraining dishonesty and deception in his character. I think "Exile" and "Lexmas" made it clear that the only way for Lex to truly become a better man is by abandoning his ambition, Luthorcorp, and Lionel. Even if he were accepted into the Kent family, I still believe Lex would have desired the love and acceptance of Lionel, remaining at Luthorcorp and getting entangled in more power struggles. Gaining Clark's trust might have made Lex more optimistic about humanity, but I doubt it would have caused him to fundamentally change his ethical system or ignore his appetite for knowledge at all costs.

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                • #68
                  I think Lex has been abused for most of his life by his digusting father. I don't think it's Clark's secret that is turning him evil it's the way he has been treated all his life.

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                  • #69
                    Personally, I think Jonathan Kent is to blame. Which means he is the main reason Clark Kent becomes Superman, and Lex Luthor to be the arch nemisis.

                    If he would have treated Lex better starting in the first season...Lex may have gone down a different path...

                    But that is the way it needed to be because, the universe gave Clark his powers and in an effort to balance itself out...it also created Lex Luthor.

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                    • #70
                      Lex turns out like that because of a chain of events. It couldnt be stopped.

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                      • #71
                        I agree with dexterfan that it's a chain of events, but I think it could have been stopped at the right interval.

                        I think Lionel is the biggest influence on Lex becoming evil but I do think Clark is still in part to blame for it. I think Clark was one of the few who could have stopped the chain of events or at least slow it down. He could have treated Lex a lot better in season 4, give him more than mistrust and you're not good enough and hey i need a favour. He does but increasingly less.

                        The thing is, I probably would have been more sympathetic towards clark if he actually did feel guilt about how Lex is turning evil right now. It's not whether he's to blame or not that bothers me, it's how he acts towards the issue that's making me more and more anti-clark. I've figured a truly good person would have mourned the loss of another good person to the other side rather than building up anger and hatred.

                        If Clark would just once, show that he misses the old Lex, show that he feels some guilt over what happened, show that he thinks that it might, even a minor fraction of it, be his fault, just a little "maybe I could have saved him" rather than just painting Lex the bad guy... that's all i want from clark on SV right now and i don't think I'll ever get it.
                        Last edited by Daddylion; 03-07-2006, 08:13 AM.

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                        • #72
                          I agree with you wholeheartedly, Daddylion. Lionel is responsible for driving Lex to the proverbial edge, but it was definitely Clark (and the Kent cabal) that shoved him over it.

                          From the beginning Lex was always a much better friend than Clark was. All Clark ever seemed to bring to the friendship was criticism and requests for favors. All Lex ever asked for was honesty. Ironically, Lex only started lying to Clark when it became obvious that Clark was lying to Lex. He was initially up front with Clark about investigating the accident, even showing him the Porsche and asking if Clark remembered anything more about the accident. Time and time again, Lex asked Clark direct questions and Clark flat-out lied to Lex’s face. For me it goes all the way back to the moment Clark resuscitates Lex and the first words out of his mouth were “I could have sworn I hit you.” From that first day they met, Lex has had two completely opposing stories battling in his head. On the one hand he has his new friend telling him Lex didn’t hit him, a story he wanted to believe because who would ever want to think their best friend is lying to them. On the other hand, he has the visual memory of running smack into Clark, knocking him off that bridge. How can he possibly reconcile those two thoughts? They cannot both be true. Do you believe what you remember or what you are told?

                          Now we can all agree that Clark had every right to protect his secret. However, Lex (along with anyone else, including Chloe and yes, even Lionel) also have just as much a right to seek the truth, especially when it involves them or has had such a profound affect on their life.

                          I am having a great deal of trouble empathizing with Clark, a problem that has progressively worsened since season 2. I could excuse Clark’s lack of comprehension in seasons 1 and most of 2 due to his obvious ignorance and naivete. He no longer has that luxury. He should have learned enough by now to realize the affect his behavior toward others has on them. I know Clark has never been the sharpest knife in the drawer, but even he cannot be that oblivious. Which leaves the only other conclusion that he just doesn’t care.

                          Now I realize all you Superman fans may take exception to that, but remember – this show isn’t about Superman; it’s about Clark Kent. I am not nor will I ever be a superhero, but I do know that I would never stop trying to help my friends if I saw they were hurting or in trouble, even when they tried pushing me away. That’s just being human, not super. Clark gave up way too easily on this so-called friendship he had with Lex and it annoys me to no end that Clark does not seem to recognize the role he has played in Lex’s downward spiral. I, along with everyone else watching this show, know Lex’s final fate, but remember – the characters do NOT. The only way I will ever be able to accept Lex’s final turn to villainy is if Clark acknowledges his failure to help prevent it and has

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                          • #73
                            Fantastic Post -my thoughts entirely.

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                            • #74
                              Nope, once again.

                              One of the most inane of concepts is the one that says that Clark should have told his secret to Lex. Absolutely stupid idea. With hindsight or foresight, it was as Lionel told Clark in "Transference", something to the effect that 'great power should be unseen" (or thereabouts). Lionel had taken over Clark's body at this point and realized what great physical power that Clark had. Not something to be shared with someone as corrupted as Lex, then, now or in the future.

                              I do think it is fair to critique Clark for constantly running to Lex for favors. That stuff gets old, but to claim that Lex has constantly been honest with Clark is delusional. Lex has always been out for whatever Lex wanted, he made it clear, greatness, power, wealth are what makes the world go round.

                              Here is the test to prove the silliness of the concept that being nice to someone will make them be good. If ever put in a harmful situation, be nice to the potential threat see how nicely they treat you, if you have the courage to match your actions to the immatureish posts.

                              I would suggest that many times, if someone does the above that it will be most unwise and downright dangerous. Bad guys/girls do not and have not learned to respect the values of the good people. They prey upon the good.

                              Again, Lex could have listened to every concept of right and wrong expounded to Clark by the Kents and it would have done nothing different. It would have gone in one ear and out the other, like so much admonition does to bad people.

                              There is a very dangerous disease that has been known about and discussed publicly for about 26 years, that is AIDS. Warnings, admonishments, advertisements, etc. have told of all the risky behaviours that get people infected and anyone willing to listen has been told how to avoid the deadly infection. And yet, still thousands or maybe millions get infected by ignoring the admonitions or warnings. Either they see themselves as immune or just blow off the warnings as not applying to themselves.

                              Lex is much like this. The principle is the same and with foresight of Lex's future it becomes more than ridiculous to think that Clark caused Lex's turn. The person who gets themselves infected made the choice to participate in the behaviours that cause the problem. If Lex, hypothetically, become infected with HIV, it would not be Clark's fault because Clark admonished Lex about his promiscuities. Lex doesn't honor or respect, nor has he ever, the valus of the Kent's. He never will.

                              The root of Lex's problems reside right within the Luthor family, not the Kent.

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                              • #75
                                Your rude replies tell me all I need to know. You wouldn’t by any chance be a big Superman fan would ya? Your analogies are flawed on so many levels. You are right, if I was attacked in a dark parking lot and I offered to make my would-be rapist tea I doubt he would change his plans. But Lex was hardly in this category. The scenario is not even comparable. You seem to believe that anyone coming from an abusive home is destined for evil. That should be alarming for all of us here in the real world considering the huge number of abused children out there (and rather depressing for them).

                                No one on this thread as far as I can tell is advocating the theory that Lex was some sweet little angel who was corrupted by Clark and his family. However, there is a basis in the old adage “No man is an island.” We have an impact on everyone we come in contact with in our lives whether we like it or not. Consider it a variation on Locard’s Exchange Principle. People are always observing things you do and say, even casual acquaintances. However, the influence is always greater when you are someone the observer admires. Hence, the importance of parents. And although parents are usually the strongest influence in a person’s life, they are not the only influence. Ask any good parent who has seen their child lured down a dark path by the wrong peer group.

                                Now you are right in saying (and I think everyone else here would agree) that a person is ultimately responsible for their own actions. But it begs the question, on what are those actions based? We all make decisions in our lives based on what we have observed and/or experienced. Lex experienced nothing but lies and deception from his father. You can imagine his amazement at meeting Clark and his family. Here is a kid who would save your life not knowing who you are and yet seek nothing in return. That must have been a shock for someone growing up in a world where people only acknowledge you for what they can get from you. Here is a type of family Lex probably only knew from reading fictional stories. The kind of family he would have given anything to have. But that’s not something you can buy. After all, as they say, “You can pick your friends but not your family.” All Lex needed was for someone to validate the goodness that was already in him; validation he obviously was never going to get from Lionel. Unfortunately, Clark ended up just getting more lies and deception, reinforcing what he'd already been taught.

                                I’m not saying Clark should have blurted out his secret right there by the riverside. That would have been ridiculous. However, Lex demonstrated over and over his trustworthiness in the beginning. In the current season, it would be unwise for Clark to show and tell. But that is now and we’re talking about then. To me it boils down to the episode Asylum. Lex kept Clark’s secret the whole time he was institutionalized. Now you may argue it was simply to use Clark at a later date. Perhaps, but that would not explain why Lex would continue to keep said secret when strapped to a table about to have his cerebrum shot full of electricity. If ever there was a time to negotiate with his father that would've been it. And Lex had the ace up his sleeve, but refused to play it, even when faced with potential brain damage. Time and time again Lex has chosen loyalty over curiosity when it came to Clark. And let’s face it, if Clark’s secret was all he was interested in he could have discovered that the very first week he met him. As demonstrated by Nixon, Phelan, Agent Loder et al., all Lex had to do was sit outside with a parabolic reflector or “bug” the Kent farm to learn everything. He certainly had the means.


                                I think we can chop this up to a matter of different perspective. You think Lex was evil from the start and ergo, see everything he does as inherently evil. Others, including myself, do not. Can we simply stop with the insults and agree to disagree?
                                Last edited by euterpe; 03-07-2006, 11:52 PM.

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