Gotham 5x12 The Beginning

[Haggard01]

Talk about the episode here. We've got an hour and half left until the series finale begins.

[costas22]

It's finally here. After tonight, no more Lee hating.

In preparation for this episode, I watched the premiere again for the first time in 5 years. I don't know what surprised me more: How different almost all the actors looked or how different the tone of the series was.

I still don't miss Fish Mooney, by the way.

[Haggard01]

It's finally here. After tonight, no more Lee hating.

Yes it finally is here and yes after tonight no more of that, maybe.

In preparation for this episode, I watched the premiere again for the first time in 5 years. I don't know what surprised me more: How different almost all the actors looked or how different the tone of the series was.

I still don't miss Fish Mooney, by the way.

Wow, very nice going and I was planning to do the same but busy day. Yeah you go back and the actors are so different especially Bruce and Selina are so dang young. The tone was for sure different as well, it was dark, gritty and far more crime drama.

Me neither, I sheered when Oswald killed her in season 1 finally and I wish Fish stayed dead instead of getting brought back.

Just less then half an hour to go, whoo!

[costas22]

Wow, very nice going and I was planning to do the same but busy day. Yeah you go back and the actors are so different especially Bruce and Selina are so dang young. The tone was for sure different as well, it was dark, gritty and far more crime drama.

Me neither, I sheered when Oswald killed her in season 1 finally and I wish Fish stayed dead instead of getting brought back.

Just less then half an hour to go, whoo!

Imagine if she appears out of the blue tonight.

The 2 kids truly were unrecognizable. Especially David!

[darkphoenix21]

This final episode is almost over and I’m kind of “meh” about it. The only curiosity I’m having is with Barbara’s new look...did they some how make her into Poison Ivy

[Aries83]

What to say?

I liked it ok, but Bruce's absence was definitely felt.

For a while, I thought Mad Hatter might've been involved (since the guard acted more like he was hypnotized than threatened or blackmailed)—until Ecco/Harleyquinn broke Jeremiah out.

From there, the plot sort of fell into place, although it didn't feel as "high-stakes" as some past episodes.

The actress who played Selina was ok, but her scenes were kind of awkward to watch.

The nod to Penguin's trademark look (with the eye piece and silhouette) was cool.

The final shot of Batman was satisfying, but I would've preferred seeing a little more.

Whoever it was that was in the costume did look a little like David Mazouz, which is a good thing (if we're to believe it's the same person).

The biggest question I have is: Does Gordon know (that it's Bruce)? My answer would be yes. Otherwise, why would he go to the roof of the GCPD and light the signal? Also, there was a look between himself and Alfred (of understanding) that made/makes me think he knows.

Anyway, I liked it ok, but I wasn't totally blown away. They did the best they could do.

What did everybody else think?

[darkphoenix21]

Last week’s episode felt like a better conclusion to the series than this episode. This was more fan service than anything else. There was nothing that blew me away or make me want a follow up series (though that Pennyworth prequel series trailer looked intriguing)

Bruce’s absence was apparent. I would have been more satisfied with the finale if we had seen an adult Bruce interacting with the cast. At least we should have seen him with Alfred and/or Lucius. I didn’t understand the need for both Bruce/Batman to be in the shadows/MIA for most of the episode.

There could have been more interesting ways to show Batman without really showing Batman...for instance, the conversation with Selena could have been done differently to where she was directly talking to Bruce/Batman, through his perspective (e.g. inside his cowl looking at her). We could have also seen more Bat-gadgets being discovered throughout the episode.

What I did enjoy about the episode were the nods to our infamous characters. That Penguin costume looked to have paid homage to the 1960’s counterpart. Selena’s cat burglar scene was classic and I did like the final reveal of Batman. Though, would have been nice if someone had called the villains by their names for the finale.

[costas22]

I said it last week, but episode 99 was the true series finale. The episode that culminated this show's premise as a pre-Batman series. Episode 100 (congrats, by the way) was all about giving us a glimpse into the future and how our characters will look like as the finalized iconic versions of themselves. Personally speaking, I don't mind what they did. It was a refreshing way of ending a series. However, I can understand some sense of frustration because just when they give us an episode showcasing a world with Batman they end the series. When the credits rolled, I was sad that we wouldn't see more of it. But then again, we must remember that this show was never about showing Batman in his final form and this episode was a bonus of sorts. My thoughts on what we saw from each character:

As far as Batman goes, they showed as much of him as I thought they would. A number of teases before they showed a complete shot at the very end (which is the only time we see David Mazouz in the flash forward). He kicked butt obviously and I loved how his appearance gave new hope to Gordon. The complete absence of Bruce also didn't surprise me. We discussed this last week, but IMO David as a 28 year old just isn't believable. He still looks too young. If we saw him share a scene with Lili Simmons, their age difference would have been obvious. It was either not showing Bruce Wayne at all or recasting the part. I think they went with the right option because a recast so late in the game would have felt cheap. The only thing the show could do was make his voice sound more adult. And in the scene with Selina at the very end, David's voice did sound a bit more mature. And his Batman voice was on point too.

I wish Ben sported the moustache for a bit longer. Other than that, I have no complaints about Jim in this episode. He looked to be in a good place with his work and Lee. As for whether he knows Batman is truly Bruce, I would say yes. He should be smart enough to figure it out after what transpired in this episode.

Apparently after reunification Barbara got immunity, unlike Penguin and Nygma. Jim's sense of justice is quite selective, isn't it? I wasnt a fan of the red hair because the wig was quite bad. Also, I wish her final scene was a bit more conclusive. Did she even survive Jeremiah's shot? Obviously she has turned her life around and she did everything to protect ger daughter, but it was still a weird way to end her storyline.

The burglary scene was Selina's best in this episode. It showed how canning her character has become. The rest of her scenes felt awkward for me too. No disrespect to Lili Simmons, but it's very difficult to get into a character's scenes when a recast happens this late in the game. For what it's worth, I did like how she defied Bruce's request that she return the diamond. A sign of what their relationship will be like.

Harvey, Alfred and Lucius played the roles you expect them to play at this stage. And Alfred is already a pro at covering for Bruce.

Penguin and Nygma looked as close to their iconic selves as possible. That pillow around Oswald's waist did look a bit silly, but I understand that it's not easy for Robin Lord Taylor to gain so much weight overnight. I love how they remained partners to the very end. The way this show has depicted these characters, they work better together instead of individually.

Jeremiah's (or "J's") transformation was quite startling. Cameron didn't add anything new to his portrayal because he already perfected his Joker a while ago. It was his look that was the biggest talking point here. That said, I didn't like that the episode ended with Batman taking him out and him being arrested. I thought he should have been shown to be on the loose and as a major threat to the city. Like Penguin and Nygma. Hasn't Jeremiah been defeated enough times already? RIP Ecco. Or I guess we should call her proto-Harley.

Well, that wraps it up. All in all, while Gotham will never be my favorite series of all time, I will always respect the fact that it remained loyal to its nature and it honored its source material until the very end. Sometimes it was too gory, sometimes it was frustrating but it was always entertaining and devoted to giving us the best Bruce Wayne and the best Jim Gordon possible. And that's all I could ask for. Especially after growing incredibly disillusioned with the way other current DC shows have treated their main heroes.

[costas22]

P.S. No mention of what happened between Nyssa and Edward the dog. Between this and Sofia Falcone lying unconcsious at the hospital after surviving a bullet to the head (!), I was disappointed in how the show wrote off some of its annoying characters.

[AsteroidMike]

And so it ends and I definitely appreciated this 5 year journey through Gotham.

For the most part I enjoyed the episode as a series finale but at times it did feel like a lot of things were being rushed through. My first thought as soon as the episode was on was basically feeling like this was just "Batman Begins" without Christian Bale, the way Bruce just leaves and then comes back in spurts as finally, Batman. I also liked the nod to "The Dark Knight Returns" with Jeremiah being in a coma in Arkham for 10 years, which also happened in that comic and Ed being locked up there too. The makeup for Jeremiah looked pretty decent but at the same time it did look similar to Jigsaw from the Saw movies so I felt mixed about it, but Bruce throwing the batarang through his hand was an awesome scene.

Nice to Barbara and Jim on friendly terms since the first season, I almost thought it was a different person with Barbara being a redhead and Jim finally adopting the mustache. Too bad Lee didn't like it and he ended up cutting. I also like how most of the cast barely aged a day despite 10 years passing by, with the exception of Selina who's become that sneak thief we all know and love, other than her being played by a different actress this time.

Ed and Oswald finally look the Penguin and Riddler we all recognize from the comics. I found it interesting that Oswald was locked up after the events of the last episode, something he made mention of to Gordon last night and honestly he had a right to feel like he was stabbed in the back. The call back to the very first episode of the series came into play there so I liked how everything came full circle, except how Oswald flat out failed to land a hit on him. Seriously how did he miss Gordon at all?

Onto the ending, with Bruce finally as Batman and I gotta say the Batman suit does look pretty nice despite having maybe 3 minutes of total screentime. All in all, even though some things felt rushed I'm satisfied with the conclusion to the series and I've definitely appreciated the ride we went on all these years.

[Haggard01]

My thoughts on the Gotham finale is well it’s an okay episode with being rushed in certain spots and disappointing in other areas. Most certainly not on the level of awesome.

This episode was more like an epilogue to the show in a way. 5x11 is more like a series finale for the overall show, this more felt like a book end type of episode.

To start off with my dislikes

First a serious lack of Batman of mostly being hands, boots and cape shots or blurred in the back ground, until just one final shot of Bruce in his full suit at the end.

Like should have had a fight scene with Batman and even in Titans they were able to have a Batman fighting scene of kept him partially obscure in smoke and such, but still were able to make it work.

No Bruce Wayne appearance in person which was a let down and you could feel it in the episode for them working around that.

Because what the showrunners talked about on a full-on Batman and what we actually got were hugely different things. I knew walking into this for how Batman’s scenes were going to play out due to the leaks but even still it’s disappointing.

One slight nitpicky note I do have to laugh at how Batman threw that second batarang which hit Joker in his head and the guy just dropped to the ground, almost makes it look like he killed Joker in this.

Guess Bruce learned enough from his encounters with the Valeska brothers in years past that he's not putting up with this problem showing up again/s

In all seriousness I know Batman did not kill him but given how it played out, yeah. Like at least have a Jeremiah is getting sent back to Arkham line or something.

I still am questioning if Gotham even needs Batman given how Gotham seems to be pretty fine and Penguin and Riddler held in has to be one of the most effective Arkham's in Batman media yet. Plus given how Gordon has been for stopping their plans over the years.

Moving onto what I liked about the episode

Despite my complaints for the lack of Batman mentioned above I still did enjoy the stuff we did get of Bruce in action.

One of the biggest highlights is Batman in the warehouse of being there before the cops are, a classic Batman moment and his brief telling of Gordon he’s not his enemy along with letting them know to not touch the bodies. With the use of a smoke bomb and escaping through the window, yeah that was a neat moment.

Also, David did a good job with the Batman voice to.

Given Lilli Simmons had one episode and while Camren Bicondova is Gotham’s Catwoman I enjoyed Lilli’s scenes as Selina in this. Yes, it’s a bit awkward but well she had one episode to work with, Lilli did what she could.

It was a neat scene to for watching Selina as Catwoman, even if the suit is earless for going through the museum to go steal the diamond.

I liked the scene between Bruce and her at the end for their conversation of them repairing or starting to repair their broken bond between them. Despite everything the both of them will always care for each other.

Mind you I wish we didn't have in last week's episode for how they ended Bruce and Selina for kind of making 5 years of watching their relationship grow feel a little pointless given how things ended between them.

Though keeping Bruce in the shadows and barely seen like I’ve mentioned for it’s drawbacks had one where it would have really been great if Bruce was actually able to have a more physical presence for interacting with Selina, especially for that balcony scene between them.

Speaking of Joker, for Cameron Monaghan’s the guy did well as J or well Joker without his name as always. Felt very Joker in this and him killing Echo fits well The Joker. Nice reference to the future Harley Quinn with his comment of more fish in the sea.

Moving on another thing I did enjoy is seeing a fully redeemed Barbara with her now as a building company person or something. Really this is like the Barbara we should have been getting from the start instead of the poorly written fiancé who just hung around an apartment with becoming a cheater, eventual crazy insane lady for the like 4 seasons and a part of 5th that you wanted off the show.

I enjoyed seeing Barbara G. and yeah can totally see this girl one day becoming Batgirl/Oracle given her throwing some object at Ecco with hitting her in the face and fighting Joker. Unsuccessfully mind you but still a spitfire.

Just wait Barbara in a good handful of years you will be giving Joker punches that will hurt him.

It was enjoyable to see Penguin and Riddler stuff with them both fully in their finale forums.

Also, it is pretty satisfying to see Riddler and Penguin wrapped up around a lamp post for the GCPD from being left by Batman. The part where both men see Batman moving up across the roof tops and decide to come up with plans to face the Dark Knight tomorrow was nice. It was great to finally see these two scared of Batman who really is the only guy who can truly make either of them afraid.

I do like how Selina quickly picked up on knowing how Bruce is spending his nights and Jim at the end had figured it out of talking to Alfred in that scene. Oh, left out Jeremiah who his reaction alone from seeing Batman, is yeah, he knows.

For that finale scene I enjoyed the ending scene on the GCPD roof top where Alfred tells Gordon about what Gordon told Bruce in the pilot for where in darkness there is light and they look up seeing Batman, with Jim’s response of the guy being a friend.

I do like how in this Batman is the one who gives Gordon hope for staying around as Commissioner and being the next guy to take over for protecting Gotham. Only just not the way Gordon initially thought by a legal means.

Oh, one last thing I did enjoy is when Jim asked the GCPD for whoever thought Bullock was guilty to leave and not one of them did, that was a very good moment. Shows how far the GCPD has come, especially from season 1.

So, I’ve rewatched the finale more then once and it’s an average episode

[Aries83]

Last week’s episode felt like a better conclusion to the series than this episode. . . . There was nothing that blew me away or make me want a follow up series

I agree. I would watch a follow-up movie, but that would be a ways off (if it would even be a possibility).

that Pennyworth prequel series trailer looked intriguing)

It did, but I wonder how much show they can get out of his backstory? I don't get the channel so I won't be watching.

Bruce’s absence was apparent. I would have been more satisfied with the finale if we had seen an adult Bruce interacting with the cast.

I agree.

I didn’t understand the need for both Bruce/Batman to be in the shadows/MIA for most of the episode.

It was disappointing. It makes no sense to recast Selina, but not Bruce. Maybe they couldn't afford to hire someone else so they just chose to keep him off screen?

There could have been more interesting ways to show Batman without really showing Batman...for instance, the conversation with Selena could have been done differently to where she was directly talking to Bruce/Batman, through his perspective (e.g. inside his cowl looking at her). We could have also seen more Bat-gadgets being discovered throughout the episode.

I totally agree. It felt very "Batman-Lite." I understand that Selina probably couldn't face Bruce, literally, but the scene felt SO awkward.

What I did enjoy about the episode were the nods to our infamous characters. That Penguin costume looked to have paid homage to the 1960’s counterpart. Selena’s cat burglar scene was classic and I did like the final reveal of Batman.

Maybe it's just me (because I am a HUGE Catwoman fan), but I was disappointed with Selina's costume. When compared to the batsuit, it felt too "Proto-Catwoman." I would've liked something that look similar to the Batman Returns costume, but not fully realized. Oh well.

As far as Batman goes, they showed as much of him as I thought they would. A number of teases before they showed a complete shot at the very end . . . . He kicked butt obviously and I loved how his appearance gave new hope to Gordon.

I would've liked more silhouette shots of the cowl (or even the cape).

The complete absence of Bruce also didn't surprise me. . . . It was either not showing Bruce Wayne at all or recasting the part. . . . a recast so late in the game would have felt cheap.

I was ok with Bicondova's choice, but after watching last night, I woud've rather had her in the scenes. I get why they did it, but—just as you said (if they did it with Bruce)—it felt cheap. Why recast one role, but not the other?

David's voice did sound a bit more mature. And his Batman voice was on point too.

I agree. It was better than Bale by a long shot!

I wish Ben sported the moustache for a bit longer.

Agreed! It made him look older, too, which is exactly what they needed. The second it was gone, he lost 10 years...

As for whether he knows Batman is truly Bruce, I would say yes. He should be smart enough to figure it out after what transpired in this episode.

I agree. If he didn't know, why go up and turn on the signal? The core 4 (Alfred, Lucius, Gordon and Selina) should know. I choose to believe everyone else doesn't.

after reunification Barbara got immunity, unlike Penguin and Nygma. . . . I wasnt a fan of the red hair because the wig was quite bad.

I thought they had her dye it so I guess they fooled me...

I wish her final scene was a bit more conclusive. Did she even survive Jeremiah's shot?

She seemed ok after Gordon rushed in so I would say yes. I was happy to see that could still be a bada** b**** if threatened, and she basically dealt Ecco/Harleyquinn-Lite a death blow. (That final shot of Ecco was disturbing... )

Penguin and Nygma looked as close to their iconic selves as possible. That pillow around Oswald's waist did look a bit silly

I didn't even nnotice... I might have to watch the episode again...

Jeremiah's (or "J's") transformation was quite startling. . . . . It was his look that was the biggest talking point here. That said, I didn't like that the episode ended with Batman taking him out and him being arrested. I thought he should have been shown to be on the loose and as a major threat to the city.

I didn't like the look. I thought he looked too much like Edward Nygma towards the end of Batman Forever... I'm sure he'll get out of jail, though, and loom large.

All in all, while Gotham will never be my favorite series of all time, I will always respect the fact that it remained loyal to its nature and it honored its source material until the very end. . . . giving us the best Bruce Wayne and the best Jim Gordon possible.

I agree!

Also, it did give us a new character that will hopefully appear in future comics (if she hasn't already). Of course, I'm talking about the incomparable, bada** b**** Maria Mercedes "Fish" Mooney, who wielded a tablespoon like no other! I was ice cold to her at the start, but Jada Pinkett Smith ROCKED the role, and I hope the character lives on in some way in the comics!

My first thought as soon as the episode was on was basically feeling like this was just "Batman Begins" without Christian Bale, the way Bruce just leaves and then comes back in spurts as finally, Batman.

I felt the same way when it started...

The call back to the very first episode of the series came into play there so I liked how everything came full circle, except how Oswald flat out failed to land a hit on him.

I thought the callback was repetitive, especially when you factor in how many scenes Oswald shared with Nygma (at the pier), but that's just me.

[costas22]

Moving on another thing I did enjoy is seeing a fully redeemed Barbara with her now as a building company person or something. Really this is like the Barbara we should have been getting from the start instead of the poorly written fiancé who just hung around an apartment with becoming a cheater, eventual crazy insane lady for the like 4 seasons and a part of 5th that you wanted off the show.

I agree there. It was nice to see her as a serious character who's in control of her marbles and who's enjoying a successful career. Motherhood changed her for the better. And if you ask me, the showrunners owed it to Barbara to redeem her by the end of the show. Because in season 1 they halted her development and turned her into a lunatic just to stop the criticisms against her character.

I do like how Selina quickly picked up on knowing how Bruce is spending his nights and Jim at the end had figured it out of talking to Alfred in that scene. Oh, left out Jeremiah who his reaction alone from seeing Batman, is yeah, he knows.

Selina definitely knows. I know they didn't have her face Bruce at the end to maintain the mystery but, like Gordon, she's smart enough to put two and two together.

The Jeremiah one is a bit more ambiguous. When he saw Batman I couldn't figure out if he was happy to see Bruce again or if he was happy to see a worthy adversary. I mean, just look how elated he was that Batman pierced his hand with his gadget.

Maybe it's just me (because I am a HUGE Catwoman fan), but I was disappointed with Selina's costume. When compared to the batsuit, it felt too "Proto-Catwoman." I would've liked something that look similar to the Batman Returns costume, but not fully realized. Oh well.

Me too. No cat ears either.

I was ok with Bicondova's choice, but after watching last night, I woud've rather had her in the scenes. I get why they did it, but—just as you said (if they did it with Bruce)—it felt cheap. Why recast one role, but not the other?

Yeah, they should have convinced her to stay. Maybe Camren was worried she wouldn't look old enough to play Selina in her late 20s, but it's not like the show went through any trouble of making the other characters look older. They just strapped a pillow around Oswald's waist to make him look fatter.

Agreed! It made him look older, too, which is exactly what they needed. The second it was gone, he lost 10 years...

Yep! Back to regular Jim. Even the hairstyle was the same. For me, they either should have tried a goatee or a moustache as thick as Gary Oldman's. It might have worked then. The caterpillar 'stache did look a bit silly.

I agree. If he didn't know, why go up and turn on the signal? The core 4 (Alfred, Lucius, Gordon and Selina) should know. I choose to believe everyone else doesn't.

I think Jim had his suspicions and he turned on the signal exactly for that reason. If the mysterious masked guy showed up, it would have to be Bruce (since Jim and him stood next to the signal at the end of last season). And on top of that, while this happens Alfred reminds Jim of the words he told Bruce after his parents died. So yeah, the 4 people closest to Bruce know for sure.

She seemed ok after Gordon rushed in so I would say yes. I was happy to see that could still be a bada** b**** if threatened, and she basically dealt Ecco/Harleyquinn-Lite a death blow. (That final shot of Ecco was disturbing... )

You're right, she must have made it. If she hadn't, Jim probably would have told Harvey when they were on the rooftop. I guess I wanted a more happy final scene for her. At least we saw how good her relationship with Jim is now.

Also, it did give us a new character that will hopefully appear in future comics (if she hasn't already). Of course, I'm talking about the incomparable, bada** b**** Maria Mercedes "Fish" Mooney, who wielded a tablespoon like no other! I was ice cold to her at the start, but Jada Pinkett Smith ROCKED the role, and I hope the character lives on in some way in the comics!

Well, she had her moments. And I'll just leave it at that.

I definitely liked her more than Sofia.

[Aries83]

I couldn't figure out if he was happy to see Bruce again or if he was happy to see a worthy adversary.

I think it's the latter. He was so bored in the asylum (and with Bruce gone) that he was overjoyed to have someone engage/validate him again (by thwarting him). I don't think he knows it's Bruce, though

it's not like the show went through any trouble of making the other characters look older.

That's one thing about flash-forwards I don't like on any show. If 10 years (or what have you) has elapsed, do something makeup-wise to age the characters. Otherwise, the time jump feels less believable (which is what I feel happened here). Then again, maybe budget restraints didn't allow for it?

Jim had his suspicions and he turned on the signal exactly for that reason. If the mysterious masked guy showed up, it would have to be Bruce (since Jim and him stood next to the signal at the end of last season). And on top of that, while this happens Alfred reminds Jim of the words he told Bruce after his parents died. So yeah, the 4 people closest to Bruce know for sure.

I have no problem with it, especially Gordon. Other iterations of the character didn't know, which did a disservice to the character's backstory. He's supposed to be this great cop/detective who becomes commissioner of the police department he joined, but he can't figure out who the person is behind the mask? They made the right choice by letting him into the fold.