Gotham 5x11 They Did What?

[Haggard01]

Talk about Gotham's 5x11 here

[Aries83]

The episode was kind of slow, but still enjoyable.

I will try not to rattle on, but: The part that got me the most was when they showed the portrait of Thomas and Martha inside WE, and—of course—the Bruce/Alfred scenes.

I didn't expect Bruce to leave the city, but—based on the trailer for next week (and the recent films)—it makes sense. I wonder how much time will elapse and where everyone will be when he returns? It makes sense that al Ghul would be at large, but I wouldn't mind if they killed her off post-haste. She was SO incredibly annoying!

As for Jim, he is exactly where he should be so I have no complaints there. Kind of funny that the baby was named "Barbara Lee." Did I or did I not say that she was going to be named after Lee in some way? It's ok, but only because I haven't found Thompkins to be quite as nauseating in these last few episodes.

Anyway, it was pretty solid, and I'm EXCITED for next week. I can't wait to see how it will all end!

What did everybody else think?

[Haggard01]

I thought it was a decent episode over all

I enjoyed all the character interactions, in this for the varying characters.

This episode even makes me feel sorry for Penquin and Riddler how they got cast aside after trying to help save Gotham.

Now for two things that really bugs me in this episode and I'm like laughing at the stupidity at the same time to

First is in 5x01 the wall battle for Gotham was clearly at night when they got out to the wall, but in the episode it was in perfect daylight. What the heck Gotham? That is just so extremely stupid

Second I knew Bruce and Selina were going to part on bad terms so I was preparing myself for this really great scene where Bruce and Selina have a conversation where Bruce tells her he is going to leaving to go train and it's a real gut punch.

What to do these writers do instead? They have Bruce leave her a note and she misses Bruce at the airport? Are you kidding me Gotham writers you people actually took the lazier road. I can't even believe I'm more of upset at the lack of a great parting on bad terms scene for Bruce leaving with Bruce and Selina, face to face then I am over it actually happening.

They blew a perfect chance for a really great scene

Plus what a real jerk move Bruce for leaving a note instead of having the guts to do it in person. Like Gotham writers were you trying to make us hate Bruce? You gave him a good bye scene with Gordon, could have used a note for Gordon and Alfred for in person. Nothing for Selina? Yeah not a fan of that one.

And speaking of Bruce I'm a little confused since I'm not sure is it Bruce leaving to go train to better protect Gotham or to go hunt down Nyssa? The show was a little unclear on that one.

Which finally Jim Gordon has become the Commissioner and I am excited for next week to see how all this ends.

[costas22]

I guess we should look at this as a series finale with next week's episode being a bonus? If you look at it as a whole, in this episode everything lined up the way we know it will in the Batman mythos. Jim became Commissioner, Bruce left Gotham so that he will return as Batman in a few years (probably 10 years, Aries), Riddler and Nygma became villains and Selina got her heart broken which will make her the jaded grey character we know as Catwoman. As a pre-Batman series, it just served its purpose. Mind you, I'm still looking forward to next week! I'm dying to see this show's version of a Batman world. Anyway, this episode wrapped up the No Man's Land storyline pretty well, I thought. I do have some nitpicks, but overall they did the arc justice, IMO. Random observations:

Jim was very heroic. This episode was his crowning moment and solidified who's the true hero of this show. I also liked his scenes with Lee, Barbara and baby Barbara. I give this show a lot of credit for toning down the melodrama and making these 4 a family of sorts.

Thankfully I was aware of the "Barbara Lee Gordon" name before I watched this. So I avoided any puking. Look, I'm going easy on Lee nowdays, but that was still too forced for my liking.

I don't know how to feel about this episode's villains. Both Nyssa and Bane were kind of underwhelming and I don't see how they will be threats to Batman in the future. Especially Bane, who got beat by teenage versions of Bruce and Selina. And while I understand what they were trying to do with the bats, the moment still came off as cheesy and contrived.

Speaking of Nyssa, what is she going to do with poor Edward the dog?

My biggest nitpick is what Haggard mentioned as well. Go back and watch the opening scene of the season. The standoff between the GCPD and Bane's army takes place clearly at night! On top of that, the way Penguin, Nygma and Bullock join Jim is different to what we saw here (Bullock was alone at a bar, Nygma was at his house and Penguin was preparing at City Hall). I can forgive shows if they retcon stuff that happened a few seasons back, but we're talking about an 11-episode gap here. Was it so difficult to maintain continuity?

The scene between Nygma and Penguin was brilliant storytelling. I was worried about how the show would explain why these two became villains again after they protected Gotham and this scene explained it very well. Both these guys are so inclined to gravitate to their criminal nature that they convinced themselves that the city underappeciated them. So they decided to lash out against it. Even their reluctance to stab each other works because it plays well into their love-hate relationship.

The Bruce and Selina situation became unnecessarily messy. I think the writers painted themselves into a corner here. They kept bringing these two closer and closer (and truth be told, they make a cute couple of teenagers) without considering that they would have to break them up before the show ended. They should have planned ahead and figured out a way to make it happen without making Bruce look bad. Sadly, this is what happened here. He abandoned Selina without even saying goodbye and now we can make a solid arguement that Selina becomes the villain-ish Catwoman because of Bruce's betrayal. It wasn't my cup of tea at the time, but maybe turning Selina dark due to Ivy's seed would have been a much better alternative.

The funny thing with Bruce is that the show seems to have gotten a lot of aspects about his character backwards. For example, they have made him too heroic given his age. Even in this episode. He has shown maturity and fighting ability well beyond his years. Even his decision to leave Gotham isn't as shallow as it was in Batman Begins. He's doing it for a really good cause. To train further (I assume) and to drive potential enemies of his away from the city. So Bruce has shown a great sense of responsibility when he wasn't obligated to do, but showed a really irresponsible side of his character when he had to do something as simple as tell Selina he will leave.

Next week should be fun. Jeremiah looks scary and Erin Richards looks amazing with her long red hair.

[Aries83]

the wall battle for Gotham was clearly at night when they got out to the wall, but in the episode it was in perfect daylight. What the heck Gotham? That is just so extremely stupid

I noticed that too, but—honestly—the scene played out so quickly that I didn't care that much...

I knew Bruce and Selina were going to part on bad terms so I was preparing myself for this really great scene . . . . They have Bruce leave her a note and she misses Bruce at the airport? Are you kidding me Gotham writers you people actually took the lazier road. . . .They blew a perfect chance for a really great scene

I didn't have such a strong reaction to it, honestly. The Bruce/Selina relationship has been WAY more mature than any other on the show. They know each other so well, so much so that part of me thinks Selina should've had suspected that he was going to leave. With that said, it was a jerk thing to do.

I'm a little confused since I'm not sure is it Bruce leaving to go train to better protect Gotham or to go hunt down Nyssa? The show was a little unclear on that one.

That's a good point. It's been forever since I've seen Batman Begins so I can't remember why it was he left in that instance, but: Since Ra's al Ghul is basically dead and his daughter has a vendetta against him, who is he going to train with?

The only character I can think of would be The Sensei/Shaman (who led the Court of Owls), but he's dead—unless Bruce located one of his pupils? Then again, The Court was bent on destroying the city (and even kidnapped Bruce and replaced him with the 514A clone from Indian Hill) so I'm not sure that would work...

Bruce left Gotham so that he will return as Batman in a few years (probably 10 years, Aries)

Was it that long in BB? If that much time has passed, will David Mazouz be replaced with a stand-in if any actual glimpses of Batman happen? Bruce's body/voice would be different, after all...

Thankfully I was aware of the "Barbara Lee Gordon" name before I watched this. So I avoided any puking. Look, I'm going easy on Lee nowdays, but that was still too forced for my liking.

It was, but what can you do? I'm surprised Barbara/Jim even found time to sign her birth certificate...

I understand what they were trying to do with the bats, the moment still came off as cheesy and contrived.

I liked that it was a nod to the Nightwing name. I didn't mind it, but everyone is different

Speaking of Nyssa, what is she going to do with poor Edward the dog?

The better question would be what is Edward going to do with her? Hopefully, kill her!

My biggest nitpick is what Haggard mentioned as well. . . . The standoff between the GCPD and Bane's army takes place clearly at night! . . . . Nygma and Bullock join Jim is different to what we saw here . . . . Was it so difficult to maintain continuity?

Good point. You could also just assume that it happened the way it was shown (and everything we saw last night up to the last second) occurred BEFORE that, but: That still doesn't explain why the shootout took place in broad daylight. It's a glaring mistake, maybe they just overlooked it?

The scene between Nygma and Penguin was brilliant storytelling. . . . they convinced themselves that the city underappeciated them. So they decided to lash out against it. Even their reluctance to stab each other works because it plays well into their love-hate relationship.

It makes more sense to me now, but as I watched it last night, I kept thinking it (and Nygma's speech) was bizarre, mainly because it seemed to come out of nowhere. The villain switch had been flipped. It seemed so one dimensional. Then again, it had to be done/explained if we're to believe that these characters end up where we know they do (i.e., the city will plunge back into chaos over time)

The Bruce and Selina situation became unnecessarily messy. . . . He abandoned Selina without even saying goodbye and now we can make a solid arguement that Selina becomes the villain-ish Catwoman because of Bruce's betrayal. . . . turning Selina dark due to Ivy's seed would have been a much better alternative.

I agree, mainly because I find the notion that she becomes Catwoman because he left her silly (and sexist, frankly). I'm thinking a lot of time must elapse and something else spurns Selina into putting on her mask. Bruce leaving her can't be it.

Next week should be fun. Jeremiah looks scary and Erin Richards looks amazing with her long red hair.

Are we sure that was Barbara Keane and not Barbara Lee Gordon?

[Haggard01]

I didn't have such a strong reaction to it, honestly. The Bruce/Selina relationship has been WAY more mature than any other on the show. They know each other so well, so much so that part of me thinks Selina should've had suspected that he was going to leave. With that said, it was a jerk thing to do.

Yeah I have to agree on the Bruce/Selina relationship being frankly the most mature one we have had on this show. Yep it was a jerk thing to do.

That's a good point. It's been forever since I've seen Batman Begins so I can't remember why it was he left in that instance, but: Since Ra's al Ghul is basically dead and his daughter has a vendetta against him, who is he going to train with?

The only character I can think of would be The Sensei/Shaman (who led the Court of Owls), but he's dead—unless Bruce located one of his pupils? Then again, The Court was bent on destroying the city (and even kidnapped Bruce and replaced him with the 514A clone from Indian Hill) so I'm not sure that would work...

Well despite what Batman Begins thing for League training has caught on, Bruce in the comics or other mediums has had loads of other trainers besides the League of Shadows so they can easily do Bruce getting training by just some random monks or something.

Yeah the Court is for sure out in the show and in the comics or cartoon where the Court has appeared Bruce has never gotten training from them anyway.

Was it that long in BB? If that much time has passed, will David Mazouz be replaced with a stand-in if any actual glimpses of Batman happen? Bruce's body/voice would be different, after all...

No in BB it was seven. Yes David is going to be replaced by a stand in but will still be doing the voice. There are going to be glimpses of Batman and one long shot of Batman in the full suit, Gotham is not doing the Smallville thing.

I liked that it was a nod to the Nightwing name. I didn't mind it, but everyone is different

I didn't mind it being a nod to the Nightwing either.

I agree, mainly because I find the notion that she becomes Catwoman because he left her silly (and sexist, frankly). I'm thinking a lot of time must elapse and something else spurns Selina into putting on her mask. Bruce leaving her can't be it.

Well the time jump is going to be ten years into the future. Really from where I'm sitting after 5 years of the show Selina already is Catwoman, she's a thief who steals to survive and for herself where at the end of the day has her own code, has the whip etc.

Really the only thing she is missing is the suit and the name. Selina does not even need Bruce leaving for the longer aspect given Selina in this is a loner, she just has a close connection to Bruce and Alfred which lines up with the comics anyway.

[costas22]

Speaking of actors playing older roles, apparently Camren won't play older Selina next week. She announced yesterday that this episode was her last. Next week, 2029!Selina will be played by Lili Simmons (who ironically also played a recast character on Westworld).

Was it that long in BB? If that much time has passed, will David Mazouz be replaced with a stand-in if any actual glimpses of Batman happen? Bruce's body/voice would be different, after all...

Like Haggard said, it was 7 years. But there's also a difference. In BB, Bruce left Gotham to go train at the age of 23. This Bruce is leaving at 18. So at the end of the day, the difference is not that big. Nolan's Bruce became Batman at the age of 30 and this Bruce becomes Batman at the age of 28.

I must say, the one aspect that worries me about next week is indeed David Mazouz as Bruce in his late 20s. While he has grown up A LOT over the past 5 years, he still looks like a 18-year old kid. Don't know how believable he will be as a 28 year old (if they paint any grey hair on his head it will be so silly ). And I'm also worried about how believable his dark Batman voice will be.

I liked that it was a nod to the Nightwing name. I didn't mind it, but everyone is different

The Nightwing reference was cool. No arguements. I just felt that the thing with the bats was a bit too on the nose. We get it, he will be inspired by bats, lol. They even did a brief shot where a bat flies right in front of the moon and it looks like the Batman symbol.

The better question would be what is Edward going to do with her? Hopefully, kill her!

One would hope. It was such a weird thing to do though. Just when Nyssa is about to enter the submarine, they ominously cut to Edward barking. As if something bad is going to happen. I'm guessing Nyssa won't be back next week, so it was a peculiar way to end her storyline.

Good point. You could also just assume that it happened the way it was shown (and everything we saw last night up to the last second) occurred BEFORE that, but: That still doesn't explain why the shootout took place in broad daylight. It's a glaring mistake, maybe they just overlooked it?

I am guessing that either they overlooked it or their shooting schedule only allowed them to shoot the gun fight during daylight. It's a very complicated scene to be fair and maybe they weren't allowed to use all these extras and actors for a night shot.

It makes more sense to me now, but as I watched it last night, I kept thinking it (and Nygma's speech) was bizarre, mainly because it seemed to come out of nowhere. The villain switch had been flipped. It seemed so one dimensional. Then again, it had to be done/explained if we're to believe that these characters end up where we know they do (i.e., the city will plunge back into chaos over time)

It seemed odd to me at first, but it makes more sense when you consider how unbalanced and bipolar these characters are. Especially Ed. Ideally, I wouldn't have had them stand side by side with Gordon to defend the city. But they explained their flip flopping as best as possible.

Are we sure that was Barbara Keane and not Barbara Lee Gordon?

Heh, it must be Barbara senior! The daughter willbe 10 years old next week. Unless they do another flash forward and they show us Barbara Jr as a hero.

Speaking of, apparently in the post-Crisis comics, Jim's wife is indeed named Barbara Kean and she is a redhead. So Erin's character is rooted to the comics after all.

[Aries83]

Bruce in the comics or other mediums has had loads of other trainers besides the League of Shadows so they can easily do Bruce getting training by just some random monks or something.

That makes sense. It's funny how one aspect of ONE iteration of a story can stick, such as Bruce being trained by TLoS, and how it gets ingrained in your mind. I only know the version from TAS, I didn't read a lot of the comics.

David is going to be replaced by a stand in but will still be doing the voice. There are going to be glimpses of Batman and one long shot of Batman in the full suit

Oh, that kind of sucks that it will be someone else, but I guess there's no way around that. Thank you for the info, Haggard01, and for continuing to open the threads!

Speaking of actors playing older roles, apparently Camren won't play older Selina next week. She announced yesterday that this episode was her last. Next week, 2029!Selina will be played by Lili Simmons (who ironically also played a recast character on Westworld).

Oh...that kind of sucks, especially with the way they left her last night. I have no idea what it's like to be an actor, but it must be kind of disappointing to leave your character in such a place as Selina was only to find out someone else will take over that character in the Series Finale...

David Mazouz as Bruce in his late 20s. . . . Don't know how believable he will be as a 28 year old (if they paint any grey hair on his head it will be so silly ). . . . I'm also worried about how believable his dark Batman voice will be.

Better than Bane's (and Christian Bale's!), hopefully!

Nyssa is about to enter the submarine, they ominously cut to Edward barking. As if something bad is going to happen. I'm guessing Nyssa won't be back next week, so it was a peculiar way to end her storyline.

I agree. I suspect that—after the time jump—it'll be explained that she was found dead on the submarine when Penguin/Ed went back to recover the gold/riches. Neither can really ascend to the top if they start out flat broke...

I am guessing that either they overlooked it or their shooting schedule only allowed them to shoot the gun fight during daylight. It's a very complicated scene to be fair and maybe they weren't allowed to use all these extras and actors for a night shot.

Yeah, a lot of stuff goes down behind the scenes that no one ever really knows about. It was a good way to set up the season, though.

Heh, it must be Barbara senior! The daughter willbe 10 years old next week. Unless they do another flash forward and they show us Barbara Jr as a hero.

Speaking of, apparently in the post-Crisis comics, Jim's wife is indeed named Barbara Kean and she is a redhead. So Erin's character is rooted to the comics after all.

Oh, ok. I had no idea how long the time jump would be, so I thought maybe she was playing an aged version of her daughter. Stranger things have happened...

[costas22]

Oh...that kind of sucks, especially with the way they left her last night. I have no idea what it's like to be an actor, but it must be kind of disappointing to leave your character in such a place as Selina was only to find out someone else will take over that character in the Series Finale...

I forgot to mention that it was actually Camren's decision. She says so in her letter. Sorry for misleading. I'm guessing she thought an older actress would be more fitting to play future Selina. It's a weird one though. Unlike David Mazouz, Camren wouldn't have had an issue playing a character older than her. She already looks like a woman in her 20s and with a few tweaks, I could buy her as a 28-30 year old.

Here's the link to her letter: https://twitter.com/camrenbicondova/...16098166423552

Better than Bane's (and Christian Bale's!), hopefully!

Heh! If it's like Bale's in TDK, I won't mind. If it's like Bale's in BB, then I will start laughing.

I agree. I suspect that—after the time jump—it'll be explained that she was found dead on the submarine when Penguin/Ed went back to recover the gold/riches. Neither can really ascend to the top if they start out flat broke...

Or they will start robbing banks again. I hope the Nyssa thing is addressed in some way though. It was just so...weird. I have a pet (pun intended) peeve about cliffhangers that don't make any sense.
I

[Aries83]

I forgot to mention that it was actually Camren's decision. . . .I'm guessing she thought an older actress would be more fitting to play future Selina. . . . Here's the link to her letter: https://twitter.com/camrenbicondova/...16098166423552

Thanks. I had no idea she had a say in the matter, but: I have to agree with her. She did an outstanding job as Selina, but the character's build/physicality would surely change. Bicondova has more of a petite build than an adult Catwoman so the decision makes sense. However, with someone like David (who is—according to the internet—5'8), it would be easier to work with/around.

I hope the Nyssa thing is addressed in some way though. It was just so...weird. I have a pet (pun intended) peeve about cliffhangers that don't make any sense.

As far as I'm concerned, she's dog chow