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  1. #1
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    Gotham #5.9 "The Trial of Jim Gordon"

    Only 3 and half more hours to go until 5.09 airs.

    Edit 1.) Twenty minutes to go.

    Edit 2.) Gotham 5x09 is now live
    Last edited by Haggard01; 03-07-2019 at 05:02 PM.

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    I'm thinking in this episode that despite my original assumption for the Jim/Lee wedding being a dream it will actually happen in the real world of Gotham itself. Ben talked about in an interview of a really important scene for Jim and one with the whole cast and crew involved that took place in the GCPD is the last scene in the 5x09 episode itself. The last scene could be a dream scene but I highly doubt it.

    Along with this episode's synopsis referring to Lee having a life changing moment well now that I think about the wedding being a real one then yeah that easily fits.

    Gotham just cause Ben and Morena Baccarin are married in real life does not mean it has to happen in the show. Like okay fine Jim/Lee is not the worst relationship of but it's not the best either.
    Last edited by Haggard01; 03-07-2019 at 05:02 PM.

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    Board Master Aries83's Avatar
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    I hate to say it, but: This episode was TERRIBLE!

    The "trial" plot had potential, but fell short.

    Ivy orchestrating the entire situation (for a "Green World" Gotham) was silly and one dimensional.

    It would've made more sense had Secretary Walker been behind the plot.

    The only good scenes were: Bruce and Selina's "date" and Alfred's speech to Leslie.

    The rest was nonsensical filler, especially the wedding. All I will say about that is Baccarin looked good in white. That's it.

    As for Barbara, her handling of the gangs was smart, her decision to go on the run with the baby no so much...

    It was just a bad episode all around, unfortunately. A low point for sure and not the best episode before a two week break.

    Oh well. I'm sure the final three episodes will make up for it, greatly.

    What did everybody else think?
    Last edited by Aries83; 03-07-2019 at 06:32 PM.

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    Give me a minute to stop throwing up.
    Last edited by costas22; 03-08-2019 at 02:23 AM.

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    ...ok, now I think I have it under control.

    Gosh, what is there to say about this episode? It must be one of the wors...
    Last edited by costas22; 03-08-2019 at 02:23 AM.

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    Sorry again guys. I wasn't done throwing up.

    You know what? It's not even the wedding itself that annoyed me the most. It's been obvious for a while now where this is headed. And while I found the wedding ceremony hokey and forced, I can live with it.

    The thing that got on my nerves the most was the baby talk. I think there were at least 3 times where Lee discussed how she was going to raise Barbara's baby? By what right? This is Jim and Barbara's baby. If Jim dies, does any law state that his wife has any kind of privilege over the baby he had with another woman? I want to like the Lee Thompkins character and her pairing with Gordon again, but stuff like this makes it impossible to do so. At the end of the day, you can see why Barbara wants to flee. Regardless of her crimes, she's a soon to be mother who knows the father and his wife will try to take the baby away from her. And of course, all this foreshadows what I'm worried will actually happen: Barbara will die and her kid will be raised by Jim and Lee.

    All in all, it was a filler and a quite bad one at that. Even worse than last week (bring back Mr Scarface!). I usually applaud Ben McKenzie for his efforts off screen, but his writing here was abject, especially when it came to the Lee/Jim/Barbara stuff.

    I usually hate hiatuses, but this time it will be most welcome. I need some time to forget about this episode before I can get excited about the last 3.
    Last edited by costas22; 03-08-2019 at 02:07 AM.

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    Forum Regular AsteroidMike's Avatar
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    This episode, as a whole was quite meh to me.

    First, foremost and all, the wedding at the end felt kinda cringy to me and I can't help but wonder if it was Ben or Morena's idea to put this in the episode. Lee's only been back on the show for the last 3 episodes and already they're getting married, for real this time, after pretty much swearing they were over each other. I mean I get that him getting shot and nearly dying can put things into perspective for people but that wedding only a month later seemed really contrived, but then again considering that parallels with them in real life I guess it makes sense.

    I liked the plot of a "trial" of Jim Gordon, although I remember him going through a similar experience in season 3 with Mad Hatter and it felt more authentic. Also thought it was kinda unfair to pin the Haven deaths on him. There was this point early in the episode about Lee ranting to Jim about him wanting to be a cowboy and claiming he's not gonna be happy until he sacrifices himself without thinking about the child or anyone else. I get her feelings and all but one, he does it because no one else either can or will and two, I'd like to point out that Jim not securing any food, water or other basic supplies means a terrible environment to take care of a child in anyway. And how does that relationship of Jim and Lee raising Barbara's baby work?

    Speaking of which, when I think about it Barbara potentially leaving Gotham with the kid in hand may actually be the best thing since it's away from an incredibly hostile city. Granted she's not my idea of the best mother figure but still.

    As for other parts of the episode, well I think Victor Zsasz was pretty much the most entertaining person on screen. Something about his antics made me enjoy him a whole lot.

    The Bruce/Ivy/Selina moments were kinda cool too especially their "date" at the beginning. That kiss at the end was kinda telegraphed, though but it didn't bug me.

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    Board Master Aries83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Gotham just cause Ben and Morena Baccarin are married in real life does not mean it has to happen in the show. Like okay fine Jim/Lee is not the worst relationship of but it's not the best either.
    I totally agree. Just because two people are together in real life does not mean that their characters have to be. It makes the scenes feel all the more forced.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Sorry again guys. I wasn't done throwing up.


    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    The thing that got on my nerves the most was the baby talk. . . . Lee discussed how she was going to raise Barbara's baby? By what right? This is Jim and Barbara's baby. If Jim dies, does any law state that his wife has any kind of privilege over the baby he had with another woman? I want to like the Lee Thompkins character and her pairing with Gordon again, but stuff like this makes it impossible to do so.
    I totally agree. Her entitlement towards the baby was disgusting. Is it because she lost hers that she automatically thinks Barbara's should be hers because she's not fit? NOBODY is fit to raise the baby!


    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    all this foreshadows what I'm worried will actually happen: Barbara will die and her kid will be raised by Jim and Lee.
    Yep. Another time jump is probably coming so Barbara will be full term before tragedy strikes. Then, to make Leslie look even more saintly, she will declare that they should name her Barbara in "honor" of her mother...

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    it was a filler and a quite bad one at that. Even worse than last week (bring back Mr Scarface!).
    Last week looks like gold compared to this schlock! During the "trial" scenes, I couldn't help but think how cool it would've been if they had gotten Nicholas D'Agosto back as Harvey Dent. It wouldn't have made the writing any better, but at least it would've been a callback to his character and earlier seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    I usually hate hiatuses, but this time it will be most welcome. I need some time to forget about this episode before I can get excited about the last 3.
    I totally agree. I hope the last three are WAY better than this.

    Quote Originally Posted by AsteroidMike View Post
    the wedding at the end felt kinda cringy to me and I can't help but wonder if it was Ben or Morena's idea to put this in the episode. Lee's only been back on the show for the last 3 episodes and already they're getting married, for real this time, after pretty much swearing they were over each other. I mean I get that him getting shot and nearly dying can put things into perspective for people but that wedding only a month later seemed really contrived, but then again considering that parallels with them in real life I guess it makes sense.
    It was so unnecessary, and I found it laughable that they'd even have 5 minutes of peace to perform the ceremony given the state of the city, but: Whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by AsteroidMike View Post
    Lee ranting to Jim about him wanting to be a cowboy and claiming he's not gonna be happy until he sacrifices himself without thinking about the child or anyone else. I get her feelings and all but one, he does it because no one else either can or will and two, I'd like to point out that Jim not securing any food, water or other basic supplies means a terrible environment to take care of a child in anyway. And how does that relationship of Jim and Lee raising Barbara's baby work?
    I agree with what you're saying, but the writers are drinking Drano. The environment the baby is raised in doesn't matter, at least when it comes to St. Leslie. However, when ANYONE else (Barbara) is put in her place, it's open season for pointing out how terrible a parent they'd be. It's an absurd double standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by AsteroidMike View Post
    That kiss at the end was kinda telegraphed, though but it didn't bug me.
    I agree. The kiss between Bruce/Selina was WAY better than the goofy, cringey close-ups of Gordon/Leslie... I'm amazed at how believable the Bruce/Selina relationship is compared to Jim/Leslie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    I totally agree. Just because two people are together in real life does not mean that their characters have to be. It makes the scenes feel all the more forced.
    And frankly it's not even okay fine it feels forced but at least the relationship is decent, may be there can be some enjoyment out of watching them interact only there is not even that.

    You know I thought they would be doing a redemption arc for Barbara and there was a few scenes where I thought maybe they might do a Jim/Barbara reunion but that didn't happen.

    I actually just wished they let Jim remain single, then maybe they would all be better off.

    Really Barbara's character got screwed over from the start for since she had poor chemistry with Jim, they had to give her this dramatic secret past of being a drug user and lesbian with relationship issues and cheating on Jim with Rene. On top of she didn't really do anything, just like hung around her apartment and that's it.

    Like Barbara was originally planed to be an ER operator until they changed it for some reason to make her an art gallery owner for some dumb reason.

    If they didn't put so much stupid drama into her character and Jim and her's relationship with having better writing including giving her something to do then maybe people wouldn't have hated her right out from day 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    I totally agree. Her entitlement towards the baby was disgusting. Is it because she lost hers that she automatically thinks Barbara's should be hers because she's not fit? NOBODY is fit to raise the baby!
    I actually got flashbacks to Arrow where Lee acted like Felicity of throwing a fit since she had acting like she had a right of say in William's life when she was not William's parents, Samantha and Oliver are. Or well were given the mother died. What's worse is the show backed Felicity.

    Seems like they did the same thing with Lee and the child here.

    Really half the time I was thinking "Whoa wait a second, since who had a meeting between Jim and Barbara saying you were going to have any involvement in the child's life to start with?Your not the child's mother."

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    Yep. Another time jump is probably coming so Barbara will be full term before tragedy strikes. Then, to make Leslie look even more saintly, she will declare that they should name her Barbara in "honor" of her mother...
    If they go that route I would prefer it to be at least be Jim who suggests it and not Barbara since he is the child's actual father.

    However guys there may be a ray of hope since Erin did an interview where she said "feel like the final episode, the finale, we jump ten years and you get to see her as I always hoped that she would become. I really channeled a very grounded version of herself."

    Given the interview was posted March 7th, it should be accurate for Barbara being safe.

    Now it's just a question of how does the child if it is Barbara Gordon and not James Jr. which I think it will be Barbara Gordon just for classic purposes and not to many people know who James is, does get her name?

    I'm hoping it's either Barbara or Jim names her that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    I totally agree. I hope the last three are WAY better than this.
    I think they will be, just from we can get back to focusing on the main story line with Bane, the government, Walker, Bruce heading towards Batman, etc instead of these two side track episodes that were filmed after they filmed the final 5x12 episode which screwed up the pacing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    The kiss between Bruce/Selina was WAY better than the goofy, cringey close-ups of Gordon/Leslie... I'm amazed at how believable the Bruce/Selina relationship is compared to Jim/Leslie.
    Yeah no kidding on the Bruce/Selina kiss being way better. Well for starters Bruce and Selina have actual chemistry, both character and actor wise. Plus the relationship is not as forced as Jim/Lee is.

    And the sad fact is knowing Gotham with how they've handled Bruce/Selina in the past, what they set up hint wise in 5x09 for Bruce leaving Gotham City, Selina not being a fan of that idea they will no doubt be having Bruce/Selina end the season, well series on yet not so good terms yet again. Yeah I know setting up classic batcat back and fourth dance but well I think just tiredness of that comes into play.

    Gotham seems to only let Bruce/Selina have happy moments together as bait before they rip it away from them over some drama reason and put them right back at odds. It's annoying, especially when they are instead letting a not so great Jim/Lee relationship get a happy ending so to speak.

    You know *chuckles* I know they would have never, ever done this but I wouldn't mind if the wedding was instead of Bruce/Selina then Jim/Lee. Bruce is over 18 and depending on the show's timeline maybe even 19, and I think Selina is one or two years older then Bruce anyway for a question of legal age. Plus the show is already different from the comics anyway.

    Instead of having Jim/Lee get married for the sole reason that the actors are in real life since if they weren't I don't think we would have seen a marriage or them back together at all. Gotham's not one for keeping any relationship lasting writing wise. Really if Morena Baccarin was not married to Ben in real life I don't think we would have kept seeing her show back up in every single Gotham season after she previously left in the last one.

    Like she left at the end of season 2, left in season 3 and died in season 4 or near death anyway. Frankly I felt Lee's exit in 3x22 was fitting for the character and I wish we never saw her again. This Lee was never going to be the Lee from the comics of Batman's aid and crime alley doctor, even if it was a younger version and the poor writing on Gotham that turned Lee's character into well not a great one.

    Really for me I think I'm just like done with in our stories, of films, TV shows, comics and etc these days where it seems where it seems all the writers do is end up wasting our time with relationships that are actually fine, healthy and the actors/characters have great chemistry, only to pull the rug out from underneath us going "Hah no they can't be happy, they have to end badly and sorry you spent all that time investing in it for nothing."

    While we toxic relationships such as Olicty on Arrow and others relationships get to have happy marriages, etc. It's just becoming very annoying.
    Last edited by Haggard01; 03-08-2019 at 09:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsteroidMike View Post
    As for other parts of the episode, well I think Victor Zsasz was pretty much the most entertaining person on screen. Something about his antics made me enjoy him a whole lot.
    Yep, Szasz is always a delight. As is Peyton List as Ivy. Pity their inclusion was overshadowed by nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    I totally agree. Just because two people are together in real life does not mean that their characters have to be. It makes the scenes feel all the more forced.
    It's something that's bugged me for a while. I like Ben and Morena as human beings and I wish them and their family all the best, but this situation has become irritating. You don't write shows based on real life relationships. Besides the fact that it's counter-productive, what the writers fail to realize is that a real life couple won't necessarily have good chemistry on screen. Not if the storyline is poor. Jim and Lee used to have ok chemistry in seasons 1-2, but it fizzled out since then. When you break up and put together a couple over and over, the viewers get tired. Jim/Lee is what Clana and Olicity used to be.

    The problem arose from the fact that the show is ending and they want to leave Jim Gordon in a place that lines up with who he is in the comics. Meaning he has to be married to someone by the end of the show and have a kid named Barbara. So they had to rush him and Lee back together and ignore all the bad baggage this relationship has. I guess it didn't even occur to them that maybe Jim could end up with another woman or reconnect with Barbara after she redeems herself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Really Barbara's character got screwed over from the start for since she had poor chemistry with Jim, they had to give her this dramatic secret past of being a drug user and lesbian with relationship issues and cheating on Jim with Rene. On top of she didn't really do anything, just like hung around her apartment and that's it.

    Like Barbara was originally planed to be an ER operator until they changed it for some reason to make her an art gallery owner for some dumb reason.

    If they didn't put so much stupid drama into her character and Jim and her's relationship with having better writing including giving her something to do then maybe people wouldn't have hated her right out from day 1.
    So true. I remember having a lot of arguements with people over her character in season 1. For starters, while I agree that the writers hindered her massively, I didn't hate her. I wanted to see how the character would play out. But most fans had already pegged her as another Lana or Laurel and they weren't willing to give her a chance to get better.

    And then, the writers' response to the backlash was to turn her into a psychotic villain. Which I disagreed with because it seemed like the lazier option. IMO they could have kept her as a good character and fixed her flaws, but they were too eager to make the criticisms go away. And yes, Barbara has had her cool moments in the last 4 seasons, but I always disliked the way this character change came about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    I totally agree. Her entitlement towards the baby was disgusting. Is it because she lost hers that she automatically thinks Barbara's should be hers because she's not fit? NOBODY is fit to raise the baby!

    Yep. Another time jump is probably coming so Barbara will be full term before tragedy strikes. Then, to make Leslie look even more saintly, she will declare that they should name her Barbara in "honor" of her mother...
    It was horrible writing and my biggest knock on Ben's work for this episode. And you know what? I don't think it even occured to Ben to rationalize why Lee would feel this offputting entitlement towards Barbara's baby. He was just looking to establish the notion that Lee will be a part of this baby's life. Because he wanted the audience to be prepared for the fact that eventually this baby will end up being raised by Jim and Lee after Barbara dies.

    I mentioned above the injustice that they have done to the Barbara character over the years. I think the writers kind of felt bad for the fact that she went from Jim's eventual soulmate to an expendable villain (something also brought upon by their obsession with Jim/Lee), so having her be Barbara Gordon's mother is their way of giving her her own legacy on this show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    Last week looks like gold compared to this schlock! During the "trial" scenes, I couldn't help but think how cool it would've been if they had gotten Nicholas D'Agosto back as Harvey Dent. It wouldn't have made the writing any better, but at least it would've been a callback to his character and earlier seasons.
    Same here. I was also hoping to see people like Captain Barnes, Captain Essen(?), Sofia Falcone and Valerie Vale, but I had to settle for The Pig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    I agree with what you're saying, but the writers are drinking Drano. The environment the baby is raised in doesn't matter, at least when it comes to St. Leslie. However, when ANYONE else (Barbara) is put in her place, it's open season for pointing out how terrible a parent they'd be. It's an absurd double standard.
    Amen. And like Asteroid Mike said, Barbara is actually right when she wants the kid to be raised away from Gotham. It will be hilarious to see the debates in the weeks to come: Jim accusing Barbara that she's too evil to raise a child in another city, all the while, Jim cozies up with criminals like Penguin and Nygma if it helps him fight crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    I agree. The kiss between Bruce/Selina was WAY better than the goofy, cringey close-ups of Gordon/Leslie... I'm amazed at how believable the Bruce/Selina relationship is compared to Jim/Leslie.
    There's still a teenage cuteness in Bruce and Selina's relationship. They've also had their fair share of melodrama, but it's never been as overbearing as the melodrama between Jim and Lee or Jim and Barbara.

    The kiss was indeed telegraphed, but Bruce's dinner at the start of the episode came out of nowhere. Why would he suddenly decide to leave Gotham? Hasn't he said repeatedly that he wants to save the city?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    I actually got flashbacks to Arrow where Lee acted like Felicity of throwing a fit since she had acting like she had a right of say in William's life when she was not William's parents, Samantha and Oliver are. Or well were given the mother died. What's worse is the show backed Felicity.

    Seems like they did the same thing with Lee and the child here.
    Damn, the similarities between the 2 storylines never occured to me. And if my prediction about Barbara ends up happening, it will truly be the Olicity-William situation all over again, with Jim and Lee raising Jim's kid with another woman. Does it ever occur to the writers that storylines this this aggravate the viewer? I mean, even if I was an Olicity or Jim/Lee shipper, I wouldn't like the fact that another female character got killed off just so my ship could play mom and dad with her child.

    Maybe Marc Guggenheim is secretly working on Gotham now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    However guys there may be a ray of hope since Erin did an interview where she said "feel like the final episode, the finale, we jump ten years and you get to see her as I always hoped that she would become. I really channeled a very grounded version of herself."

    Given the interview was posted March 7th, it should be accurate for Barbara being safe.
    Really? Thanks for the info. I hadn't seen this interview. This makes me think of two alternative scenarios: Either Barbara dies after the 10 year jump (and that's when Jim and Lee take in her kid) or Barbara willingly gives up her kid because she finally agrees that she's not fit enough to be a parent. There's also a 3rd option where at the end of the series Barbara lives and she shares the kid with Jim/Lee, but it sounds too forced. There's too much water under the bridge for Barbara, Jim and Lee to become one big happy family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Really for me I think I'm just like done with in our stories, of films, TV shows, comics and etc these days where it seems where it seems all the writers do is end up wasting our time with relationships that are actually fine, healthy and the actors/characters have great chemistry, only to pull the rug out from underneath us going "Hah no they can't be happy, they have to end badly and sorry you spent all that time investing in it for nothing."

    While we toxic relationships such as Olicty on Arrow and others relationships get to have happy marriages, etc. It's just becoming very annoying.
    What's even worse is that the writers make these relationships toxic for no reason. They chose to have Oliver and Laurel's relationship too toxic from the off. They then chose to ruin Olicity (which was actually ok as a slowly building platonic romance) by including Ray Palmer and making Felicity selfish and unlikeable. Jim and Lee could have worked if there weren't breakups and other relationships along the way. I don't know why it's so hard to just put a couple together and keep them like this for the rest of the series. It may get boring at times, but it's much better than recycled melodrama of cheating, love triangles and what have you.
    Last edited by costas22; 03-09-2019 at 03:10 AM.

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    Board Master Aries83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    Barbara was originally planed to be an ER operator until they changed it for some reason to make her an art gallery owner.
    Really? I didn't know that. It sounds a lot better than what they went with. Maybe they always had plans to bring Thompkins in (as the medical doctor who would eventually work in Crime Alley, etc.), but thought it wouldn't be a good idea to have two characters with such similar backgrounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    I wouldn't mind if the wedding was instead of Bruce/Selina then Jim/Lee.
    ANY wedding would've been better than Jim/Leslie!

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    I like Ben and Morena as human beings and I wish them and their family all the best, but this situation has become irritating. You don't write shows based on real life relationships. Besides the fact that it's counter-productive, what the writers fail to realize is that a real life couple won't necessarily have good chemistry on screen.
    I totally agree. It reminds me of every celebrity couple I've seen on cloud 9 after getting together. All of a sudden, they start doing projects together because they think their chemistry is so good the final product will be that much better because they were both involved. I could give examples, but I'm sure you can think of some... It's just not a good idea, ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    It was horrible writing and my biggest knock on Ben's work for this episode. And you know what? I don't think it even occured to Ben to rationalize why Lee would feel this offputting entitlement towards Barbara's baby.
    He wrote it? I didn't even notice (I usually don't pay attention to the credits). All the Lee pandering makes sense now...

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    im accusing Barbara that she's too evil to raise a child in another city, all the while, Jim cozies up with criminals like Penguin and Nygma if it helps him fight crime.
    Yep. Lee shot Falcone at nearly point-blank range (enough to put her in the longest effing coma known to man), but lets just act like she's not as bad as Barbara because she's back with Jim... It's so stupid.

    At this point, I'd rather see the baby end up with Penguin and Nygma! They'd probably do a better job, too!

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Bruce's dinner at the start of the episode came out of nowhere. Why would he suddenly decide to leave Gotham? Hasn't he said repeatedly that he wants to save the city?
    I was more concerned with the fact that all he had to offer Selina was something from a can... Even though Wayne Manor is gone, he still has money. You'd think he could get something better than a can.

    Leaving the city seems to be the theme they've decided to give certain characters to amp up how bad the situation is supposed to be. I'm sure no one will leave, but I can understand feeling like they have to when they literally have no other options before them.

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    Posting Pro Aurora Moon's Avatar
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    Agree with almost everything that Aries83, Hargrid01, and Costas22 up above posted.

    Especially on toxic relationships and forced romantic pairings.

    I really wish that TV writers would learn that while some drama can make for good TV, that there can be such a thing as "too much of a good thing", and that people can and will eventually get tired of the endless melodrama. That if they constantly repeat some things over and over, that viewers are eventually going to think that they're ****** writers who don't know how to write anything else.

    I was one of those who originally liked the Clana/olicity/JimLee pairings before the writers ruined it for me. I end up hating a lot of those pairings for the same exact reason... the same reasons that other posters listed here.

    As for Barbara-- I'm still disappointed over how they handled a bisexual woman. When they first started out, I honestly thought that they were gonna break away from the negative bisexual stereotypes and show Baraba as a faithful wife who just happened to be bisexual. That she didn't stop being bisexual just because she was married to a straight guy, but that she didn't get tempted often to go cheat on him contrary to what some people might think.
    I thought I'd have a character on TV that I could relate to, what with being a monogamous bisexual person myself.

    Instead, they leaned heavily into all the negative stereotypes-- Bisexual people are unfaithful, mentally ill, total deviants, etc. Granted, she did get more interesting as a character once she broke off with Jim and started owning her crazy side. she became more likable that way. But even then, still not a good representation of bisexual people.
    Last edited by Aurora Moon; 03-09-2019 at 12:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    Really? I didn't know that. It sounds a lot better than what they went with. Maybe they always had plans to bring Thompkins in (as the medical doctor who would eventually work in Crime Alley, etc.), but thought it wouldn't be a good idea to have two characters with such similar backgrounds?
    Well if that was the Gotham's showrunners reasoning talk about extremely stupid since Jim and Harvey are both cops, then you have criminals in Gotham who have similar backgrounds one way or another, similar jobs etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    ANY wedding would've been better than Jim/Leslie!
    Oh no kidding, like let's put Jim/Lee for weddings under like Olicty weddings over in the Arrowverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    I totally agree. It reminds me of every celebrity couple I've seen on cloud 9 after getting together. All of a sudden, they start doing projects together because they think their chemistry is so good the final product will be that much better because they were both involved. I could give examples, but I'm sure you can think of some... It's just not a good idea, ever.

    He wrote it? I didn't even notice (I usually don't pay attention to the credits). All the Lee pandering makes sense now...
    Yeah the Jim/Lee and the pandering stuff totally reminds me of Sherlock TV show. To sum it up long story short season 1 and 2 was an okay show. Season 3 introduced Mary something who became Mary Watson and then season 3 and 4 went down hill fast into a soap opera of Mary got to be a literally Mary Sue, John and Mary had a baby and then they killed Mary off. However even after her death in the series finale two episodes Mary showed up as a ghost then on a DVD in the series finale to wish Sherlock and John good luck or something.

    I couldn't escape the character who helped ruin the show due to the amount of dumb pandering, through of course poor writing in other areas did not help either.

    Come to find out that Mary is the actual real life wife of the actor who plays John Watson so another Ben/Morena situation and like ah so that's why so much pandering took place.

    So yeah just another example of why that's a bad thing.

    You know I have to wonder how Gotham likes to leave it's characters unhappy if Ben and Monerna were not married that maybe Jim would have ended up alone with no marriage.

    Frankly anybody up for Deadpool showing up at the Jim/Lee wedding to object and with Wade's fourth wall ability he could point out every single wrong reason for them to be together from the series? Now that would be seriously amusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    The problem arose from the fact that the show is ending and they want to leave Jim Gordon in a place that lines up with who he is in the comics. Meaning he has to be married to someone by the end of the show and have a kid named Barbara. So they had to rush him and Lee back together and ignore all the bad baggage this relationship has. I guess it didn't even occur to them that maybe Jim could end up with another woman or reconnect with Barbara after she redeems herself.
    Guess not or maybe Ben himself requested this to happen, would not surprise me any.

    Or you know have Jim Gordon end up alone with Barbara which is how it usually plays out.

    Either the wife leaves Gotham early on, dies like in Earth graphic novel, and even if Jim does get married again like did to Sarah Essen she got murdered by The Joker.

    Like every single version of Gordon usually ends up alone with his Barbara and given how this show was I figured the alone part would be happening before Bruce even put on the bat suit.

    In some versions like post crisis until pre new 52 Barbara is not even Jim's actual child by blood but his niece so I figured until news of Barbara Kean being pergeant that was a direction Gotham could take as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    So true. I remember having a lot of arguements with people over her character in season 1. For starters, while I agree that the writers hindered her massively, I didn't hate her. I wanted to see how the character would play out. But most fans had already pegged her as another Lana or Laurel and they weren't willing to give her a chance to get better.

    And then, the writers' response to the backlash was to turn her into a psychotic villain. Which I disagreed with because it seemed like the lazier option. IMO they could have kept her as a good character and fixed her flaws, but they were too eager to make the criticisms go away. And yes, Barbara has had her cool moments in the last 4 seasons, but I always disliked the way this character change came about.
    Yeah I was not Barbara's biggest fan in season 1 however I was hoping she would actually improve and um I can't say at times that serial killer, insane lady we got in the following seasons is what I had in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    The kiss was indeed telegraphed, but Bruce's dinner at the start of the episode came out of nowhere. Why would he suddenly decide to leave Gotham? Hasn't he said repeatedly that he wants to save the city?
    What more of threw me for a lop was Bruce was talking about leaving and not coming back like ever. I expected the leaving to go train and one day comer back, as Batman but like Bruce acted or still does like he was going to leave Gotham City for good.

    That's the weird part.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Damn, the similarities between the 2 storylines never occured to me. And if my prediction about Barbara ends up happening, it will truly be the Olicity-William situation all over again, with Jim and Lee raising Jim's kid with another woman. Does it ever occur to the writers that storylines this this aggravate the viewer? I mean, even if I was an Olicity or Jim/Lee shipper, I wouldn't like the fact that another female character got killed off just so my ship could play mom and dad with her child.

    Maybe Marc Guggenheim is secretly working on Gotham now?
    Yeah it became pretty obvious and yeah me neither on that story line. I don't think it ever does occur to the writers of that.

    Actually having seen those shippers um they are usually more then fine with a female character, the actual mother getting killed off so their couple can play parents. Espically the Olicty shippers, they've made that real obvious.

    You know there have been times where I think the Gotham writers have lunches with Marc Guggenheim based on some of the writing choices made.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Really? Thanks for the info. I hadn't seen this interview. This makes me think of two alternative scenarios: Either Barbara dies after the 10 year jump (and that's when Jim and Lee take in her kid) or Barbara willingly gives up her kid because she finally agrees that she's not fit enough to be a parent. There's also a 3rd option where at the end of the series Barbara lives and she shares the kid with Jim/Lee, but it sounds too forced. There's too much water under the bridge for Barbara, Jim and Lee to become one big happy family.
    Thanks. Yeah I can see those options happening, my bet is on the first two more then the third like you.

    Although Lee in the episode did talk about sharing the kid with Barbara so maybe the third option.

    You know no wonder Barbara Gordon ends up putting on a bat suit to go fight crime, given how screwed up the people who raised her and that whole situation is.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    What's even worse is that the writers make these relationships toxic for no reason. They chose to have Oliver and Laurel's relationship too toxic from the off. They then chose to ruin Olicity (which was actually ok as a slowly building platonic romance) by including Ray Palmer and making Felicity selfish and unlikeable. Jim and Lee could have worked if there weren't breakups and other relationships along the way. I don't know why it's so hard to just put a couple together and keep them like this for the rest of the series. It may get boring at times, but it's much better than recycled melodrama of cheating, love triangles and what have you.
    No kidding, that's the worse part for making these relationships toxic for no reason.

    Yeah you've summed it up quite well for why and how those relationships crashed and burned into a toxic pit.

    Me neither on why it's so hard to put a couple together without the melodrama of cheating, love triangles and whatever else.

    Like I was watching the Mummy returns yesterday and it was so nice to see two of the lead characters for Johnathan and his wife have a happy, healthy marriage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora Moon View Post
    As for Barbara-- I'm still disappointed over how they handled a bisexual woman. When they first started out, I honestly thought that they were gonna break away from the negative bisexual stereotypes and show Baraba as a faithful wife who just happened to be bisexual. . . . Instead, they leaned heavily into all the negative stereotypes-- Bisexual people are unfaithful, mentally ill, total deviants, etc. Granted, she did get more interesting as a character once she broke off with Jim and started owning her crazy side. she became more likable that way. But even then, still not a good representation of bisexual people.
    I totally understand. I feel the same way about Nygmobblepot. They had a chance to do something with two iconic characters that could've really made an impact, but they wasted it, either because they feared a bad reaction (or DC Comics restricted them from doing it), whichever the case.

    Sure, it finally seems that Ed has let go of the incident with Isabella and Oswald made the flippant remark, "Maybe we're really meant to be together," before they both had a chuckle about it. It will go down as the biggest wasted opportunity of the series, at least for me.

    I find it odd that they haven't even referenced Montoya (or Crispus Allen) since Season 1, though. Surely, they are still around?
    Last edited by Aries83; 03-11-2019 at 10:20 AM.

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