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  1. #1
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    Gotham #5.7 "Ace Chemicals"

    The big day is finally here. Just 7 more hours to go until it starts.

    Edit: 4 more hours to go until Gotham 5x07 starts

    Edit: 3 minutes to go
    Last edited by Haggard01; 02-21-2019 at 04:57 PM.

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    Board Master Aries83's Avatar
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    Well, this was almost a perfect episode for me—until the 56-minute mark where it took an unnecessary exit to soap opera land by re-igniting Jim/Lee ...What are they thinking?! Up to that point, the Barbara/Gordon/Lee scenes were void of melodrama and almost believable. I thought they were finally getting over that hump, but: I guess not.

    The rest of it was flawless. The way they interconnected the Mad Hatter with the opening scene and the "family reunion" plot was seamless.

    To that end, it was really cool that they were able to get the original actors to reprise their roles from Season 1 without recasting them (That doesn't happen very often).

    I didn't expect Jim and Lee to be the "stand-ins" for Thomas and Martha at the end. I was surprised (Too bad it was ruined by the ending).

    I didn't expect Wayne Manor to be destroyed. The tunnel will undoubtedly be the road map for the Batcave, right?

    I'm sure Jeremiah will be out of commission next week, but: How was his body recovered from the vat of acid so quickly?

    Walker turning out to be some sort of imposter (?) was curious.

    Anyway, a very good episode that ended on a sour note, at least for me. What did everybody else think?

  3. #3
    10 years at KSite costas22's Avatar
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    That was basically my take after I watched this episode. It was Gotham at its best and at its very worst.

    The Jeremiah arc was just fantastic. It was riveting, it had some twists and turns and it had a lot of homages to the season premiere, to Batman (the 1989 movie) and to Batman Begins. And while I thought Cameron was a bit cartoonish as Jeremiah in recent weeks, he knocked it out of the park in this episode. I liked this storyline so much, that I didn't even mind that Tetch was in it.

    It won't surprise me if Jeremiah stays like this until the season finale. All that's left now if for us to see Joker in his complete form, so they might keep us waiting until then. I willl miss him as a villain.

    Selina returning to help Bruce in the same place where she saw his parents get killed was a nice touch. I guess now she and Bruce are on good terms again. Don't ruin it again, show.

    That heartwarming reunion between Jim and Alfred as the Manor is bursting in flames was that Batman Begins homage I was talking about. One of my favorite scenes of the episode.

    I felt kind of bad for Jim because as much as he tries, this city can't help itself and his attempts to reunify with the mainland keep failing. And apparently all that acid polluting the river will lead to new villains in the weeks to come.

    The Nygma/Penguin/Barbara team up seems like the latest alliance shift between these three. Pains me to say, but I stopped caring about who's on whose side a long time ago. I did like the fact that Ed immediately figured out Barbara's pregnancy. What a good doctor. So what now? Ed and Oswald will built a submarine on their on?

    I wasn't taken aback by the Jim/Lee reunion. Their scenes during the episode telegraphed that this is where the whole thing was headed. I don't like it because whatever chemistry Jim and Lee had fizzled out in season 2 and because this reunion glosses over the actions of both Jim and Lee. But hey, Ben and Morena are a couple in real life, so they must be a couple on the show as well. The scene itself was poorly written and felt like something taken out of a soap opera. "We can't go back", "you've changed", "But Barbara is pregnant" and then they kiss anyway. Eh.

    Barbara was back to her cold self this week. Which was weird because last week I could have sworn that she seemed to be warming up to Jim again. Maybe Lee's return reminded her that Jim is kind of a waffler and she shouldn't develop feelings for him again. I also felt bad for her when Jim insinuated that she's not fit to be a mother. That was low on his part and it's why I struggle to sympathize with Jim when it comes to his love life. He treats Barbara and Lee with double standards. And not for nothing, but he hasn't proven himself fit to be a parent either.

    The worst thing in all this is that the likeliest scenario is Barbara dies and her child ends up with Jim and Lee: The future Barbara Gordon. Mind you, that's pure speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me given this show's track record.
    Last edited by costas22; 02-22-2019 at 03:57 AM.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular AsteroidMike's Avatar
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    Gotham seems to constantly be good for the most part this final season.

    Jeremiah and Oswald are constantly the two characters who seem to be the most fun to watch onscreen, not that anyone on the show is terrible or a drag. But Jeremiah was terrific and apparently indestructible. I actually was legit surprised at the twist of him hypnotizing Jim and Lee into being the Thomas and Martha Wayne stand-ins. I also have to mention how much I greatly appreciate the growth of David Mazouz over the last few years. Also, R.I.P. Wayne Manor.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22
    I wasn't taken aback by the Jim/Lee reunion. Their scenes during the episode telegraphed that this is where the whole thing was headed. I don't like it because whatever chemistry Jim and Lee had fizzled out in season 2 and because this reunion glosses over the actions of both Jim and Lee. But hey, Ben and Morena are a couple in real life, so they must be a couple on the show as well. The scene itself was poorly written and felt like something taken out of a soap opera. "We can't go back", "you've changed", "But Barbara is pregnant" and then they kiss anyway. Eh.
    I knew as soon as Lee was back at GCPD that the whole Jim-Lee dynamic would start up yet again and this time for no real good reason. They've been broken up for at least 2 years, had semi-successful relationships of their own since then moved on from each other and yet go back to making out after she slaps Jim. There's really no reason for them to get back together. Better hope Deadpool isn't watching this

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22
    Barbara was back to her cold self this week. Which was weird because last week I could have sworn that she seemed to be warming up to Jim again. Maybe Lee's return reminded her that Jim is kind of a waffler and she shouldn't develop feelings for him again. I also felt bad for her when Jim insinuated that she's not fit to be a mother. That was low on his part and it's why I struggle to sympathize with Jim when it comes to his love life. He treats Barbara and Lee with double standards. And not for nothing, but he hasn't proven himself fit to be a parent either.
    The odd part about that low blow for Jim was that I kinda agreed with him, she wouldn't be a good mother because I seem to recall her murdering her parents back in season 1, but at the same time considering his line of work neither would Jim. I also think if she really didn't want him involved with the baby at all then why bother telling him you're pregnant.

    I think the ending with Ed, Barbara and Oswald was the best part and Ed must really be a genius beyond any normal capabilities if he could just figure out Barbara was pregnant because "you're glowing." Also the final lines in the episode made it great for me, I think it was the first time this series has had an episode end on a fairly comedic note.

    Oswald: "So, who's the lucky father?"
    Barbara: "SHUT UP!"
    *Roll end title card*

  5. #5
    Board Master Aries83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    while I thought Cameron was a bit cartoonish as Jeremiah in recent weeks, he knocked it out of the park in this episode. . . It won't surprise me if Jeremiah stays like this until the season finale. All that's left now if for us to see Joker in his complete form, so they might keep us waiting until then.
    He performance was definitely understated compared to previous weeks. He didn't interact much with Harleyquinn Ecco , which could be why.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    That heartwarming reunion between Jim and Alfred as the Manor is bursting in flames was that Batman Begins homage I was talking about. One of my favorite scenes of the episode.
    I forgot to mention that, but it was one of my favorite moments too, mainly because they haven't referenced that father/son bond in such an overt way for some time now.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    I did like the fact that Ed immediately figured out Barbara's pregnancy. What a good doctor. So what now? Ed and Oswald will built a submarine on their on?
    Even though Nygma's brain has basically been scrambled to oblivion, he knows how to build such a thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    I wasn't taken aback by the Jim/Lee reunion. Their scenes during the episode telegraphed that this is where the whole thing was headed. I don't like it because whatever chemistry Jim and Lee had fizzled out in season 2 and because this reunion glosses over the actions of both Jim and Lee. . . . The scene itself was poorly written and felt like something taken out of a soap opera. "We can't go back", "you've changed", "But Barbara is pregnant" and then they kiss anyway. Eh.
    It was TERRIBLE! I was surprised, because the dialog between the three characters (Jim/Lee/Barbara)—at first—made it seem like everybody was over the drama and moving forward (Even the scenes when Gordon/Lee were in The Narrows). Then, boom. They're swapping spit like it's their last day on Earth.

    I absolutely HATED it. Baccarin is a great actress. She can do SO much more than this. I wouldn't mind them together at all, if it was written well, but it's pure tripe.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Barbara was back to her cold self this week. Which was weird because last week I could have sworn that she seemed to be warming up to Jim again. . . . I also felt bad for her when Jim insinuated that she's not fit to be a mother. That was low on his part and it's why I struggle to sympathize with Jim when it comes to his love life. He treats Barbara and Lee with double standards. And not for nothing, but he hasn't proven himself fit to be a parent either.
    I think they're both even, for the fact that Barbara flat out acted like he was just a sperm donor who wasn't entitled to have a say in what happens to the baby. That wasn't fair (just as much as his insinuation).

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    the likeliest scenario is Barbara dies and her child ends up with Jim and Lee: The future Barbara Gordon. Mind you, that's pure speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me given this show's track record.
    I agree (and when they kissed, that possibility came to mind...)

  6. #6
    Board Master Aries83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsteroidMike View Post
    I knew as soon as Lee was back at GCPD that the whole Jim-Lee dynamic would start up yet again and this time for no real good reason. They've been broken up for at least 2 years, had semi-successful relationships of their own since then moved on from each other and yet go back to making out after she slaps Jim.
    Part of me is hoping the kiss signed her death warrant so that Barbara can exist later as Barbra Gordon's mother, but it's anybody's guess as to what will happen there.

  7. #7
    10 years at KSite costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsteroidMike View Post
    I knew as soon as Lee was back at GCPD that the whole Jim-Lee dynamic would start up yet again and this time for no real good reason. They've been broken up for at least 2 years, had semi-successful relationships of their own since then moved on from each other and yet go back to making out after she slaps Jim. There's really no reason for them to get back together. Better hope Deadpool isn't watching this
    Heh. He probably wishes he didn't use Cable's time travelling tech! Honestly, and I hate repeating this point, it feels like the show wants these two characters together due to Ben and Morena being a couple in real life. Maybe the showrunners think that their chemistry will carry over to their scenes. Which isn't always the case, IMO. Chemistry can only get you so far when the dialogue is corny and when the lovebirds are trapped in a neverending cycle. This is why Clana got tiresome after 3 years, even though Welling and Kreuk clicked very well together on screen. Jim and Lee also reached that point 2 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by AsteroidMike View Post
    The odd part about that low blow for Jim was that I kinda agreed with him, she wouldn't be a good mother because I seem to recall her murdering her parents back in season 1, but at the same time considering his line of work neither would Jim. I also think if she really didn't want him involved with the baby at all then why bother telling him you're pregnant.
    Barbara said she just wanted him to know because he deserved that much. Don't know. To me, she looked kind of spiteful in this episode. It's as if she was hoping she and Jim might rekindle their romance and Lee's return ruined it. So now she's just lashing out.

    In regards to Jim being a good parent, there are a couple of issues there. His work is one of them. It's dangerous anyway and he has made it worse by making a lot of personal enemies (like Tetch, Nygma or Penguin). There's also the issue of Jim's messy love life. To put it bluntly, he doesn't seem capable of keeping his pants up for too long. The fact that he had this baby with a woman he seemingly feels contempt for speaks volumes. And now he may be a father from a distance for that reason. That's why he should be more careful before casting stones, I feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by AsteroidMike View Post
    I think the ending with Ed, Barbara and Oswald was the best part and Ed must really be a genius beyond any normal capabilities if he could just figure out Barbara was pregnant because "you're glowing." Also the final lines in the episode made it great for me, I think it was the first time this series has had an episode end on a fairly comedic note.

    Oswald: "So, who's the lucky father?"
    Barbara: "SHUT UP!"
    *Roll end title card*
    That was hilarious.

  8. #8
    10 years at KSite costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    He performance was definitely understated compared to previous weeks. He didn't interact much with Harleyquinn Ecco , which could be why.
    Good point. He's usually at his best when he's interacting with Bruce, anyway. That's where his character has more depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    Even though Nygma's brain has basically been scrambled to oblivion, he knows how to build such a thing...
    And he designed those plans very quickly too. I wonder where they'll find the manpower though. In the last 2 episodes Penguin seems to have run out of hired muscle. Of course, the way things change on this show, Oswald could have 50 henchmen again next week!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    It was TERRIBLE! I was surprised, because the dialog between the three characters (Jim/Lee/Barbara)—at first—made it seem like everybody was over the drama and moving forward (Even the scenes when Gordon/Lee were in The Narrows). Then, boom. They're swapping spit like it's their last day on Earth.

    I absolutely HATED it. Baccarin is a great actress. She can do SO much more than this. I wouldn't mind them together at all, if it was written well, but it's pure tripe.
    Romance just isn't this show's forte. Don't know why they insist on doing it. There have only been a few couples that I actually liked. Bruce and Selina's, for example, has a teenage cuteness about it. Also, Jim and Valerie Vale's felt like an adult drama-free fling. Until you-know-who was interjected in the storyline and ruined it. Like you, I would have been somewhat ok, if Jim and Lee ended up together in a moderate manner. Without any hokey dialogue and overdramatized scenes. This is Clana-esque now.

    My only hope now is that with 5 episodes left, the Jim/Lee stuff gets put on the back burner in favor of more important storylines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries83 View Post
    I think they're both even, for the fact that Barbara flat out acted like he was just a sperm donor who wasn't entitled to have a say in what happens to the baby. That wasn't fair (just as much as his insinuation).
    Fair enough. As a man, it's also something I would hate to hear if I was ever in the position Jim is in. Like I said above, in this episode it felt like Barbara was "punishing" Jim because she felt betrayed after she saw his reaction to Lee's return. It doesn't make it right, but I think that was the logic behind her actions here. She was reminded of Jim's iffy track record when it comes to women. And being an unhinged character, she reacted in an excessive manner.

    Speaking of Jim and his women, whatever happened to Sofia? Is she still somewhere in a Gotham hospital, having magically survived a bullet to the head?

  9. #9
    Board Master Aries83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    he designed those plans very quickly too.
    Where did he even get the paper? The city is in ruin, but he managed to find the paper needed for a schematic/blueprint...

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    I wonder where they'll find the manpower though. In the last 2 episodes Penguin seems to have run out of hired muscle. Of course, the way things change on this show, Oswald could have 50 henchmen again next week!
    I'm not even worried about it, because both of them were still in the city at the time of the flashfoward. So, I'm not sure the submarine will be built. If it is, Penguin/Nygma will have to offer safe passage out of the city for anybody to consider helping them.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    My only hope now is that with 5 episodes left, the Jim/Lee stuff gets put on the back burner in favor of more important storylines.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    whatever happened to Sofia? Is she still somewhere in a Gotham hospital, having magically survived a bullet to the head?
    She's probably become an eggplant or zucchini at this point, if the hospital didn't have a backup generator...

    On that note, where is Mr. Freeze?

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