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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSecretVampire View Post
    And I'm sure The Quad will be after him too. Surely, there has to be some other highly ranked members in that group that grew tired of his act and having them exposed for so long.
    What Quad? From what I've been told Diaz IS the Quad now. I was told he killed two of the four members and bullied the remaining one into submission so bad I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped off the face of the Earth just to get shot of Diaz. Since that's the case I'd say the Quadrant has been all but dissolved more or less and all of their turf probably carved up into separate territories by surviving underlings, since that's normally how TV crime syndicates work.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantLord View Post
    What Quad? From what I've been told Diaz IS the Quad now. I was told he killed two of the four members and bullied the remaining one into submission so bad I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped off the face of the Earth just to get shot of Diaz. Since that's the case I'd say the Quadrant has been all but dissolved more or less and all of their turf probably carved up into separate territories by surviving underlings, since that's normally how TV crime syndicates work.

    Not to compare The League of Assassins to The Quad, but since I thought The League didn't have any members left that would come back to cause trouble in the show but they did in season 6, I figured there are a few Quad members out there who didn't like what Diaz did by really exposing the group to the public and killing a few members as well that now that Diaz seems to be right for the picking that they would come after him or something. I mean if they are truly dissolved, then that would be truly disappointing since the word of mouth painted them as a powerful crime group which never truly were presented that way in this last stretch of Arrow season 6.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantLord View Post
    What Quad? From what I've been told Diaz IS the Quad now. I was told he killed two of the four members and bullied the remaining one into submission so bad I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped off the face of the Earth just to get shot of Diaz. Since that's the case I'd say the Quadrant has been all but dissolved more or less and all of their turf probably carved up into separate territories by surviving underlings, since that's normally how TV crime syndicates work.
    Diaz killed three of the four members of the Quad, the first was the son whose position Diaz took, then the woman (who would have made an awesome Big Bad for next season), and then some guy who neglected to have his bodyguard around. It's part of the bad writing for Diaz -- if the Quad is really such a Bad Scary organization that Diaz wants in so badly, why are they so incompetent when they meet up with him? Why did none of the bodyguards for those three people shoot Diaz when he attacked their bosses? It's almost as bad as Black Siren taking orders from Prometheus, Cayden James and Diaz and being so frightened of Diaz when she could easily have killed him multiple times. Too much of this season was stupid for plot.

    Unless they can come up with some sub plots for the Olivier-is-in-prison episodes, it's just going to be bad guys jumping Oliver in the supermax and Oliver fighting them off. I'm not interested in watching Oliver in prison, it's too similar to the boring parts of the season 4 and 5 flashbacks where characters I don't know and never learn to care about fight Oliver just because someone thinks it's a cool stunt. I'm even less interested in Not Team Arrow doing what OTA did because this season has ruined all three of them. Diggle working with ARGUS is the only thing I'm interested in coming back for as long as Oliver is away and Felicity and William are in protective custody and off-screen.

    Even if Oliver does get out before the crossover episode, the show is still compromised. Smallville's Oliver Queen was known to be the Green Arrow but he was a secondary character, not the star of the show while Superman's identity was hidden. And William and Felicity will forever be targets because anyone who wants to get back at the Green Arrow will be able to attack them. William will never be able to go to school again without bodyguards because Oliver made a stupid decision without getting input from his closest advisors.

    Speaking of which, for those who said in season four that it's none of Felicity's business if Oliver has a son, this episode answered the question. Felicity has to give up her life and the company that she is building because she is forced into witness protection to take care of William, a traumatized boy who has lost both his parents (one dead and the other in jail indefinitely). Even worse, she had no say in the matter of what happens in her life because Oliver made the decision without talking to her or even warning her that it was happening. If she didn't feel responsible for taking care of William, she could have told Oliver it's her life and she's going to do what she wants but because of William, she has to go into hiding. Oliver treated Laurel badly but at least Laurel was always free to make her own decisions. Felicity can't do that because she's responsible for William now.
    When she broke up with Oliver in season 4, Felicity said that while she still loved him, she couldn't be with him because when things got tough, he was going to revert to that man on the island, making decisions alone and not letting anyone else in. She was right.
    Last edited by katakombs; 05-28-2018 at 12:41 PM.

  4. #19
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    Felicity actually said that she should have been consulted when Oliver and Samantha decided that she and William should live away. That's why people said it was none of her business and they were right. At that point she was nothing to William and deserved to have no say in his life. Obviously she should have known about William's existance. No arguement there.

    As for the current predicament, she knew what she was getting into. At the end of season 4, she made a conscious decision to break up with Oliver due to "what William represented" (her words): Oliver hiding stuff and making decisions without asking her. Why did she do an 180 this season? Why did she get back with Oliver, marry him and become William's step mother, knowing very well how Oliver's mind works? Knowing that at any moment Oliver may turn their life on its head with one boneheaded decision?

    One of Felicity's flaws is her arrogance that she's so influential that she will change Oliver into the husband she wants. Not to make him a better person, but to prove to herself that she can. That's what she's paying for now and it's probably why she won't be mad with Oliver. She knows she got into this mess willingly.
    Last edited by costas22; 05-28-2018 at 02:04 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Felicity actually said that she should have been consulted when Oliver and Samantha decided that she and William should live away. That's why people said it was none of her business and they were right. At that point she was nothing to William and deserved to have no say in his life. Obviously she should have known about William's existance. No arguement there.

    As for the current predicament, she knew what she was getting into. At the end of season 4, she made a conscious decision to break up with Oliver due to "what William represented" (her words): Oliver hiding stuff and making decisions without asking her. Why did she do an 180 this season? Why did she get back with Oliver, marry him and become William's step mother, knowing very well how Oliver's mind works? Knowing that at any moment Oliver may turn their life on its head with one boneheaded decision?

    One of Felicity's flaws is her arrogance that she's so influential that she will change Oliver into the husband she wants. Not to make him a better person, but to prove to herself that she can. That's what she's paying for now and it's probably why she won't be mad with Oliver. She knows she got into this mess willingly.
    Agreed. However that said, it really isn't her fault, not totally anyways. It's the writers. They were so hellbent on making Felicity the sun of the Flarrowverse that they've essentially given her the free pass to do what ever she wants. The writers' own arrogance was allowed to seep into her character. She's a perfect reflection her her creators when she thinks she's basically god and can do no wrong.

    If Felicity wasn't allowed to be devolved as far as she has been you'd have a whole different ball game, trust me.

  6. #21
    10 years at KSite costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantLord View Post
    Agreed. However that said, it really isn't her fault, not totally anyways. It's the writers. They were so hellbent on making Felicity the sun of the Flarrowverse that they've essentially given her the free pass to do what ever she wants. The writers' own arrogance was allowed to seep into her character. She's a perfect reflection her her creators when she thinks she's basically god and can do no wrong.

    If Felicity wasn't allowed to be devolved as far as she has been you'd have a whole different ball game, trust me.
    Υeah, no arguement. My criticism was directed exactly at the way she's been written for a long while now. Always in the right, never accountable for anything, always trying to force her opinion onto others (especially Oliver)... It was predominant theme of the show for seasons 2-4. Havenrock shook her a bit (but barely compared to the actual damage done), but the first time we saw her truly apologize and admit she was wrong was episode 5.20. Guggenheim loved his creation so much that he made her the true moral compass of the show.

    But as far as the relationship with Oliver is concerned, I've noticed this repeated pattern since season 3 where Felicity tries to change him into something he isn't, failing and then going back to him. It feels like an arrogant attempt to prove to herself that she can change him. I guess credit should go to the writers who have stuck with this characterization for so long. Continuity is often hard to come by on these shows!

    Pity they didn't let the character naturally evolve post season 1. It would have made for a better show.

  7. #22
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I guess we're getting into S4 Oliver and Felicity's break-up (again).

    Felicity did have a right to know about William, at some point, by the fact that she was his significant other and fiancee at the time. Which is why I actually wished Oliver's initial explanation aka needing time to process the whole concept of being a father/having a son wasn't wiped into oblivion thanks to Savage. Oliver had a right to have a moment to digest such life changing info, without anyone's input. I saw that as reasonable, despite Oliver's clunky explanations.

    But it's time-sensitive -- he did have to tell Felicity about his son eventually (there'll be no consensus on how soon ... two days, two weeks, two months?). Never telling Felicity was not an option, and Darhk blurting it out in the reset timeline, we can agree was the worst way to have it revealed.

    As for Samantha and Oliver having the right to decide what to do with their. own. son(!) ... of course they did. Felicity had returned the ring, and with it any expectation that as fiancee she would get to weigh in any capacity re: William in S4. Oliver could tell her what he decided as a courtesy, or even ask advice if he wished ... but he neither needed nor required her input, let alone her consent back then. While he might have given her the courtesy as a friend to mention it to her in passing aka be less of a dick (an Oliver trait for sure), he had no obligation to run the decision by her. She wasn't his fiancee any longer.

    It's a different ballgame in S6 -- Felicity is his wife, she is William's mom (and only mom too after Samantha's death). The S4 situation had a different set of variables.

    Back to S6, The Quadrant was poorly developed, and introduced too late, it was more tell vs. show. For a supposedly formidable int'l criminal enterprise, Diaz got the drop on them too quickly. We could say his iron grip on Star City, the cops, made it easier, but the Quadrant was supposedly a global entity too. But yeah, the lone remaining (silent!) kingpin decided to side with Diaz and not risk getting his throat cut. A bit too easy. The Diaz arc did appear too late, and it was rushed. The Quadrant's meh presence is part of that fallout.

    While I agree Diaz's arc started too late, I would say S6 finally picked up steam when the Diaz arc ramped up. The previous civil war arc I disliked not because of what happened, but because of how sloppily it was executed. It dragged on and on. They all came off as petty and juvenile, not Team Arrow's finest hour.

    As for the Diaz arc, I would count "The Dragon" as among the season's best, possibly among the series best too. It was a deliberate character study ep., and Kirk and Katie left it all in the ring too. It should have happened sooner, maybe after the winter break, but it was nonetheless a great character episode for both Diaz and Black Siren -- they were in that ep 90% of the time.

    Diaz isn't as good as Chase or Deathstroke as a villain, but he's hardly the worst ever. The notion that he was a "terrible" Big Bad doesn't wash with me. He's not perfect, but Bronze Tiger, China White, and Vertigo are one-dimensional cardboard cut-outs compared to Diaz. And he's potentially better than S3's Ra's Al Ghul -- the wheels fell off Ra's wagon by season's end. Diaz may yet further impress in S7 or sputter out like Ra's -- we can't know yet.

    They haven't really explained why BS is afraid of Diaz, he did become more abusive in the end. I agree this is problematic, when in effect she could destroy him. Either he has some unknown leverage on her, or it's a Stockholm syndrome situation, he got into her head and she couldn't “break free".

    Costas: I think you'd "love" the Felicity scene where, in a bizarre need to prove her worth in the field, barged blindly into a team v. Diaz firefight to obtain intel (the stakes were high, true, but the crazy risk she took...), essentially put the operation/team at risk. Oliver had to fish her bacon out of the fire, as Diaz was soo close to capping her. And they didn't get the intel either so it was all for nothing. Classic.😃

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    It's a different ballgame in S6 -- Felicity is his wife, she is William's mom (and only mom too after Samantha's death). The S4 situation had a different set of variables.
    Absolutely. From what I gather, Oliver made the decision to cut the deal with the feds and once again Felicity (as well as William) found out about it along with everyone else. It's irresponsible, to put it kindly. Especially knowing how costly the revelation of his secret may be for his loved ones, witness protection or not.

    I just think that history has repeated itself so many times, that Felicity becomes a guilty party as well. That's not because I dislike her specifically. It's just my stance in life that when you willingly keep going back to a person that's caused you pain or feelings of mistrust, you're asking for more of the same. Maybe it's because of what I said: She thinks she can change him. Maybe Oliver is so convincing that he dupes her about being a changed man every time. Who knows how the writers look at it. I just can't lay the blame just on Oliver anymore.

    At the same time, Felicity also knew something else. That Oliver's life as a crime fighter was bound to catch up to him at some point. Either he was going to get killed or his identity would be revealed to. He dodged the bullet in S1 when Diggle pretended to be the Arrow, he dodged it again in S3 when Roy pretended to be the Arrow and he got away with it again in S6 when Human Target pretended to be Tommy Merlyn as the Green Arrow. But it wasn't going to last forever. Felicity knew this and she never left Team Arrow. She loved this lifestyle. And this season she literally married into it, so she must have expected that it could turn upside down at any moment if the wrong person found out Oliver was the Green Arrow.

    Does it suck for Felicity that she has to go into hiding with Oliver's son while her husband is in jail and her startup is put on hold? Especially after Oliver made the call without telling her? Without a doubt. But she must have expected it, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Costas: I think you'd "love" the Felicity scene where, in a bizarre need to prove her worth in the field, barged blindly into a team v. Diaz firefight to obtain intel (the stakes were high, true, but the crazy risk she took...), essentially put the operation/team at risk. Oliver had to fish her bacon out of the fire, as Diaz was soo close to capping her. And they didn't get the intel either so it was all for nothing. Classic.
    WOW. I must look this up! I imagine she defended her actions afterwards and somehow blamed Oliver for what happened! Besides bizarre, it's a recycled storyline as well. They did it in Season 2 during the episode with the Clock King. When she took a bullet to protect Sara because she didn't have a scar like the others did. But it was nowhere near as ridiculous as the situation you described sounds!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    ...so she must have expected that it could turn upside down at any moment if the wrong person found out Oliver was the Green Arrow.

    Does it suck for Felicity that she has to go into hiding with Oliver's son while her husband is in jail and her startup is put on hold? Especially after Oliver made the call without telling her? Without a doubt. But she must have expected it, IMO.
    This reminds me of the episode in S5 (either ep 1 or 2...) when Oliver was training the new recruits and Oliver asked her to wear a mask to hide her identity and she refused. She had no problem exposing herself, and potentially Oliver by association, to two people she knew almost nothing about.

  10. #25
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    Enjoy. (You're welcome) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfNmTsCvYD0

    Lyla though was amazing in the scene, no surprise. Only dumb luck saved both Felicity and Oliver. She might have had a leg to stand on if the risk had the big reward of getting that intel. It didn't, so it just came off as hare-brained.

    At this point, Felicity went into the marriage by S6 with eyes wide open. She knows the man she made a vow to, it's not like it's surprising at this point that Oliver can and will keep secrets, tell lies, inadequately reciprocate trust and -- yes -- be a bit of a putz while doing all of it. So when he does such things after six years, it can't be surprise to the team esp. the so-called vets Diggle and Felicity.

    It's a bit of a Hollywood/TV trope. The guy wants the girl to love him as he is, warts 'n all. The girl wants to change the guy to make him the "best" version of himself. In a way, they've 'SV Clark'd' Oliver a little bit. They've made him flawed almost to the degree that we can't imagine if he'd come out of that tunnel for the better in the end. And only Felicity can 'save' him.

    Diggle's schism with Oliver (while better than the sillier schoolyard spat between the Arrow teams) was also a bit wonky: dude, you signed up with Oliver since practically day one -- you stood to be counted for many of Oliver's, in hindsight, awful decisions. You're hands ain't clean either, Mr. Diggle. That's why I largely agreed with Diggle leaving the team. If you can no longer back Oliver's play after six years of being his main standard bearer, as legitimate as "some" of your gripes may be Digs, the only honourable thing was to resign from the team. Can't heckle from the benches and still say you're a team player.

  11. #26
    10 years at KSite costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Kent View Post
    This reminds me of the episode in S5 (either ep 1 or 2...) when Oliver was training the new recruits and Oliver asked her to wear a mask to hide her identity and she refused. She had no problem exposing herself, and potentially Oliver by association, to two people she knew almost nothing about.
    Good point. And later in that episode Oliver revealed himself as well because the theme of that episode was "TRUST!" and how could that ever happen if the recruits didn't know who he was. Plus, Felicity had to be proven right. Eventually the recruits of course should have found out who the Green Arrow and Overwatch truly were. But during orientation and at a moment when they still haven't proven their loyalty? What if one of the recruits was a mole for a bad guy?

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Enjoy. (You're welcome) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfNmTsCvYD0

    Lyla though was amazing in the scene, no surprise. Only dumb luck saved both Felicity and Oliver. She might have had a leg to stand on if the risk had the big reward of getting that intel. It didn't, so it just came off as hare-brained.
    Thanks, man. As silly as the whole thing was, the video reminded me that I miss seeing Audrey this season.

    Just typical Arrow though. Felicity has a needy demand, ignores everyone and everything to get it done, puts the mission at risk but pays no price for it. Don't know if anyone lectured her afterwards, but it's amazing she even made it out alive, even before Diaz set his sights on her.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    It's a bit of a Hollywood/TV trope. The guy wants the girl to love him as he is, warts 'n all. The girl wants to change the guy to make him the "best" version of himself. In a way, they've 'SV Clark'd' Oliver a little bit. They've made him flawed almost to the degree that we can't imagine if he'd come out of that tunnel for the better in the end. And only Felicity can 'save' him.
    Interesting point. And it's funny you should mention SV's Clark because I always felt like there were some parallels between Olicity and Clois. For example, this scene you posted and Felicity's talk with Lyla about how she and Dig so everything together reminded me of a Smallville episode called "Patriot". It also revolved around Clark going out on the field on his own while Lois stayed behind and out of the loop. Lois had a very similar talk with Mera about how she and Aquaman were a team. Thankfully that episode didn't feature Lois taking it upon herself to do something stupid (although she would later on in the season), but its theme was identical: The love interest should be attached to the hero's hip and they should do everything together. Otherwise, the hero will be lost on his own. A tv trope like you said. Or more specifically, a tv shipper trope.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Interesting point. And it's funny you should mention SV's Clark because I always felt like there were some parallels between Olicity and Clois. For example, this scene you posted and Felicity's talk with Lyla about how she and Dig so everything together reminded me of a Smallville episode called "Patriot". It also revolved around Clark going out on the field on his own while Lois stayed behind and out of the loop. Lois had a very similar talk with Mera about how she and Aquaman were a team. Thankfully that episode didn't feature Lois taking it upon herself to do something stupid (although she would later on in the season), but its theme was identical: The love interest should be attached to the hero's hip and they should do everything together. Otherwise, the hero will be lost on his own. A tv trope like you said. Or more specifically, a tv shipper trope.
    Wrong. The point of "Patriot" was that keeping Lois in the dark wasn't protecting her. Clark was damaged from his relationship with Lana (whom he constantly had to save). He had this moronic idea, that by keeping Lois out of the loop, he was protecting her (similar to S1 of The Flash, when nobody was to tell Iris about Barry being the Flash, because it would put her in danger, when it's actually not knowing, that can put them in danger). There's a difference between keeping a loved one in the loop (about important things) and them doing everything together.

  13. #28
    10 years at KSite costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon-el87 View Post
    Wrong. The point of "Patriot" was that keeping Lois in the dark wasn't protecting her. Clark was damaged from his relationship with Lana (whom he constantly had to save). He had this moronic idea, that by keeping Lois out of the loop, he was protecting her (similar to S1 of The Flash, when nobody was to tell Iris about Barry being the Flash, because it would put her in danger, when it's actually not knowing, that can put them in danger). There's a difference between keeping a loved one in the loop (about important things) and them doing everything together.
    Was Lois in any sort of danger during this episode because Clark kept her out of the loop? No. She was just upset (as well as she should) that Clark thought about volunteering for the VRA without telling her first and because he went off on his own to find AC without telling her where he was. However, the gist of the episode was that Clark and Lois should be partners (or "co-captains" as AC put it) similar to Aquaman and Mera, in Clark's quest to save people. Both of Lois' scenes with Mera revolved around that fact. It wasn't just about Lois knowing what he was up to. It was also about getting Lois actively involved with Watchtower and her becoming a part of Clark's life as the Blur (obviously she wouldn't be the one saving people).
    Last edited by costas22; 05-29-2018 at 04:40 PM.

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