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#4.22 "No Man's Land" - SEASON 4 FINALE!

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  • #4.22 "No Man's Land" - SEASON 4 FINALE!

    To be honest, I thought the first half was pretty boring.

    However, it was nice to see a return from Hugo Strange—although I'm wondering what it is he'll do to Lee and Nygma. Frankly, I don't care. (The scene where they stabbed each other and then kissed as if they were on a soap opera was one of the STUPIDEST things I've ever seen! )

    I was a little disappointed that Penguin had so little to do, but I'm glad he got some justice for Gertrude, although it felt kind of random. Sorry, Butch (and Tabatha! )

    The nod to the bat signal at the end was cool. Does anybody have any ideas as to who the villains (One looked like a bat, the other two were in doll masks) were supposed to be?

    The jury is still out on whether Ra's al Ghul is dead, but I was surprised Selina ended up where she did (likely paralyzed).

    Anyway, it was ok. Definitely not as good as last year's finale, but not bad.

    What did everybody else think of the Season 4 Finale?
    Last edited by Aries83; 05-17-2018, 06:15 PM.

  • #2
    For the most part, this felt like a penultimate episode. I was waiting for something more to happen towards the end of the episode. It was a villains free-for-all; which we’ve already seen several times in this series. I guess I expected much more from this ‘catastrophic event’.

    I don’t believe that Ra’s al Ghul is dead nor do I believe Butch is dead either; this is Gotham after all, dead is never dead.

    Originally posted by Aries83
    However, it was nice to see a return from Hugo Strange—although I'm wondering what it is he'll do to Lee and Nygma. Frankly, I don't care. (The scene where they stabbed each other and then kissed as if they were on a soap opera was one of the STUPIDEST things I've ever seen! )
    Yeah, it was a big eye roll for me too. As soon as the scene began it was like, “alright, we know how this will end. Let’s just get it over with as fast as possible.”

    Originally posted by Aries83
    Does anybody have any ideas as to who the villains (One looked like a bat, the other two were in doll masks) were supposed to be?
    Well with a quick google search the bat creature is likely: Man-Bat and at least one of the other two (the child) maybe a villain by the name of:Baby Doll (oh these villain names)

    I again expected more but, hopefully the last 13 episodes of the series will give us everything and more...just no bad cgi Batman (*cough*Smallville*cough*) if that’s where we’re heading for the last minutes of the show.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by darkphoenix21
      I was waiting for something more to happen towards the end of the episode. It was a villains free-for-all; which we’ve already seen several times in this series. I guess I expected much more from this ‘catastrophic event’.
      Yeah, the collapse of the bridges didn't really feel "cataclysmic" to me. If they really wanted it to feel disastrous, they should've aired the last 2 episodes as a seamless event. That way, all of the destruction would've felt more compounded.

      Originally posted by darkphoenix21
      I don’t believe that Ra’s al Ghul is dead nor do I believe Butch is dead either; this is Gotham after all, dead is never dead.
      I agree. What was the point of locating Strange if all Penguin was going to do was kill Butch anyway?

      Originally posted by darkphoenix21
      Yeah, it was a big eye roll for me too. As soon as the scene began it was like, “alright, we know how this will end. Let’s just get it over with as fast as possible.”
      I actually liked the fact that she was prepared and knew what he was going to do. In fact, I would've preferred she killed him, but the kissing at the end was ridiculous. I have no clue what Strange will do for/with them, but I don't think it will make them any more interesting as characters

      Originally posted by darkphoenix21
      the bat creature is likely: Man-Bat
      I thought maybe that was it, but wasn't sure since they teased it last season and never followed up on it.

      Originally posted by darkphoenix21
      at least one of the other two (the child) maybe a villain by the name of:Baby Doll
      I remember the storyline from B: TAS. I always thought it was one of the saddest storylines they ever did.

      Comment


      • #4
        Gosh, where to begin? All in all, I thought it was ok but it lacked the feel of a Season Finale. The reason for that is that "One Bad Day" and "No Man's Land" were clearly a 2-part season finale and they should have aired on the same night. FOX did this last year, so I don't get why they didn't try it again this year.

        Anyway, the cliffhanger is pretty big and I don't think the city has ever been left in such a state before. Even when all the monsters escaped. This is much worse because it's basically multiple gangs and villains fighting over a city with minimal infrastracture and protection. I loved the foreshadowing of Bruce working with Jim to clean the city and the spotlight was a cool touch! Many people assume Season 5 will start with a time jump, but I am not so sure. Not the way this season ended...

        As expected, they are teasing Selina being paralyzed. I don't think it will be permanent, but I can see the show doing that storyline for a few episodes.

        Jeremiah lives and escapes. Pretty much how you would expect his story to wrap up at this point. Once again, he was wonderfully sinister and his remark about Selina was really disturbing. Hope he plays a big part in Season 5.

        Thanks to darkphoenix for looking up who those villains were in the end. I had no idea either.

        One of my problems with Gotham is its repetitive nature. Butch was shot last year, was brought back and is shot again this year. It looks like it will stick this time (that's what Drew Powell seems to suggest), but it just feels like the last year was a waste of time for Butch. As was the whole Grundy thing. On the plus side, this is exactly the Oswald that we should be getting on this show. I loved how calculating and vindictive he was.

        By the same proxy, the Ra's storyline also feels like a repetitive waste of time. He was killed in the fall finale, resurrected and then killed again! Unlike Butch, obviously there's a chance Ra's can return, but why kill him again? If he's truly gone, then IMO this show will have failed the character. Granted, he was a better take than Arrow's, but not by a great deal. He was basically used to prop up other characters.

        Speaking of, I'm usually a Barbara fan, but I groaned at the "It's all the men's fault" line. I am all for her being badass, having her own gang and whatnot, but being a misandrist? Eh. It's cheap and a disservice to her character, IMO. What's even worse is that it was triggered by the news that Penguin killed Butch. Barbara doesn't even care about Butch!

        Last and certainly least, the Lee/Nygma stuff was bad. The good thing is that Jim wasn't part of this arc for too long. As for the double stabbing/kissing scene, it was cringeworthy! What is this, Twilight? At least they showed that Strange kept them alive. I was worried that the show would tease their deaths, when it's clearly obvious Morena and Cory will return next season. I wonder what Strange will do to them: Will he create a Riddler who will think with his upper head again? Will he create a Lee we can actually like again? Will he make cattlefish out of both of them? Tune in to find out!

        P.S. I take it Sofia is still at some hospital in a coma?

        To sum up, while the finale didn't blow me away (unlike the bridges ), I'd say that it wrapped up Gotham's best season in 3 years, IMHO. The usual issues aside, I really enjoyed the show this year. Pity we have to wait 8 months for Season 5.
        Last edited by costas22; 05-18-2018, 03:50 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          To me, this was a hell of a finale.

          To start off, the Lee-Ed relationship thing was the least interesting part of the episode. I did kinda like how she told off Ed and Jim about who she is but at the end of the day I really don't think Jim cares all that much anymore, he just wants to do his job and keep it moving. Ed trying to rub it in his face is petty, though understandable from his POV but predictable, as was him trying to stab Lee only for both of them to stab each other. That was.....odd.

          Now with that out of the way, it seemed like the writing staff just channeled as much of The Dark Knight trilogy and No Man's Land (hence the title) as they could into these last couple of episodes, especially this one. You have Gordon locking up the Joker in plain view, him wanting to speak with Bruce specifically with bombs still hidden around the city, him suggesting that he and Bruce will be "friends" forever, blowing up the bridges, etc. They went all out this episode. I'm surprised Bane didn't just randomly show up.

          I did like that scene with Oswald and co. bursting in on Bruce, Jeremiah and Ra's like he had just picked up a Call of Duty killstreak and then saving Tabitha, only to later kill Butch just when he got cured at the end. At first I thought "what the hell" when he shot Butch but then when he asked Tabitha if he forgot about her killing his mom, I remembered that he apparently didn't forget and now wants her to suffer. Sounds like the perfectly methodical Oswald thing to do, although he should just kill her now because if shows have taught me anything it's that if you don't kill them now they'll just come back later.

          And poor Selina, I guess they're going the full Killing Joke route with her possibly being paralyzed there. Special shout-out goes to the inclusion of Batman's future Rogues Gallery making some cameo appearances in the final few minutes of the episode, including Man-Bat and Scarecrow's full costume look.

          The ending shot with Bruce standing next to Jim in that trenchcoat with a searchlight aimed at the sky just screams Batman. As far as I'm concerned the show did everything short of have a bat fly out of the TV screen.

          Comment


          • #6
            Correction: All the recaps are saying that the characters in the masks are named Mother and Orphan. Here’s what Wikipedia states:

            http://dc.*****.com/wiki/Cassandra_Cain_(Prime_Earth)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by costas22
              All in all, I thought it was ok but it lacked the feel of a Season Finale. The reason for that is that "One Bad Day" and "No Man's Land" were clearly a 2-part season finale and they should have aired on the same night.
              I agree 100% and said as much. Had EVERYTHING happened in ONE seamless episode, I think the general reaction would've been better.

              Originally posted by costas22
              Many people assume Season 5 will start with a time jump, but I am not so sure. Not the way this season ended...

              As expected, they are teasing Selina being paralyzed. I don't think it will be permanent, but I can see the show doing that storyline for a few episodes.
              A small time jump might be best, especially for Selina's storyline (e.g., Bruce visits her x months later)

              Originally posted by costas22
              One of my problems with Gotham is its repetitive nature. Butch was shot last year, was brought back and is shot again this year. It looks like it will stick this time (that's what Drew Powell seems to suggest), but it just feels like the last year was a waste of time for Butch. As was the whole Grundy thing.
              Strange said that the toxic was kept his organs "well preserved." They could always use that to bring him back.Otherwise, yeah, it feels like a waste of time. He had less than 3 minutes of screen time as Butch before he was killed. Then, why bother restoring him (or getting B.D. Wong to reprise his role)?

              Originally posted by costas22
              By the same proxy, the Ra's storyline also feels like a repetitive waste of time. He was killed in the fall finale, resurrected and then killed again! Unlike Butch, obviously there's a chance Ra's can return, but why kill him again?
              Unless he can project and make it look like he's died? Also, how sure are we that the reforged dagger was eve real?

              Originally posted by costas22
              I groaned at the "It's all the men's fault" line. I am all for her being badass, having her own gang and whatnot, but being a misandrist? Eh. It's cheap and a disservice to her character, IMO. What's even worse is that it was triggered by the news that Penguin killed Butch. Barbara doesn't even care about Butch!
              Yeah, given that she shot him in the head! Also, she, Selina, and Tabatha have caused A LOT of problems in Gotham City themselves (and have profited off of the chaos). So, that line really made her look like a hypocrite. They're no better (or worse) than men.

              Oh, and if we want to talk about disservice to characters, here's another line: "I'm Queen of the Narrows. People tell me things." . . . .

              Originally posted by costas22
              Last and certainly least, the Lee/Nygma stuff was bad. The good thing is that Jim wasn't part of this arc for too long. As for the double stabbing/kissing scene, it was cringeworthy! What is this, Twilight? At least they showed that Strange kept them alive. I was worried that the show would tease their deaths, when it's clearly obvious Morena and Cory will return next season. I wonder what Strange will do to them: Will he create a Riddler who will think with his upper head again? Will he create a Lee we can actually like again? Will he make cattlefish out of both of them?
              He could swap their faces onto the other's body and I still wouldn't care... I'm curious what he could do, but I'm not invested in it.

              Originally posted by costas22
              I take it Sofia is still at some hospital in a coma?
              Unless they had a backup generator, I'd say she's screwed...

              Originally posted by AsteroidMike
              I did like that scene with Oswald and co. bursting in on Bruce, Jeremiah and Ra's like he had just picked up a Call of Duty killstreak
              I liked that scene, too, the choreography was really good.


              Originally posted by AsteroidMike
              Scarecrow's full costume look.
              I forgot to mention that. I LOVED the cowl for this version of the character. I think it's time for him to be unmasked, though, now that another actor has taken over the role.

              Originally posted by darkphoenix21
              Correction: All the recaps are saying that the characters in the masks are named Mother and Orphan. Here’s what Wikipedia states:

              http://dc.*****.com/wiki/Cassandra_Cain_(Prime_Earth)
              Interesting. Thanks for the info, darkphoenix21!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Aries83
                A small time jump might be best, especially for Selina's storyline (e.g., Bruce visits her x months later)
                In all likelyhood, that's what will happen. For one thing, David Mazouz will look older when they start shooting again and they will have to explain that somehow.

                I'm just not a fan of time jumps when there are cliffhangers like this. I would like to see how Jim and Bruce start fighting crime, for example.

                Originally posted by Aries83
                Strange said that the toxic was kept his organs "well preserved." They could always use that to bring him back.Otherwise, yeah, it feels like a waste of time. He had less than 3 minutes of screen time as Butch before he was killed. Then, why bother restoring him (or getting B.D. Wong to reprise his role)?
                Gotham does tend to keep its characters around, but, in this instance, if he comes back again it would be overkill (ironically ).

                Butch is just a very good example of a character who overstayed his welcome. His arc this season proved that. It might have worked if his Grundy condition was irreversible, but it became all about him turning back to Butch and his days were numbered after that.

                Originally posted by Aries83
                Unless he can project and make it look like he's died? Also, how sure are we that the reforged dagger was eve real?
                It could happen! I would like to see him again. It's the same problem with Butch though. You can tease their death so many times before they turn into Kenny from South Park.

                Originally posted by Aries83
                Yeah, given that she shot him in the head! Also, she, Selina, and Tabatha have caused A LOT of problems in Gotham City themselves (and have profited off of the chaos). So, that line really made her look like a hypocrite. They're no better (or worse) than men.
                Exactly. Lest we forget that Fish Mooney and Sofia Falcone (both of whom Barbara had dealings with) were also crime bosses. But I guess nothing bad in this city happened because of them.

                The counter arguement could always be that we shouldn't take Barbara at face value because she's a villain and she doesn't express the POV of the show. And it's true. But it still makes her a one dimensional bigoted villain. Barbara should be more complex than that, IMO.

                Originally posted by Aries83
                Oh, and if we want to talk about disservice to characters, here's another line: "I'm Queen of the Narrows. People tell me things." . . . .
                Ridiculous. It's like they are in a competition with themselves to give her sillier lines with each passing week. And how does that work? She's a Queen who cures the ill and who robs banks to give to the poor? Sounds like an identity crisis.

                I watched Deadpool 2 this week. Morena portrays such a likeable character there. Her acting on Gotham is equally good, but the characters are night and day, it seems. Vanessa feels like an actual person.

                Originally posted by Aries83
                He could swap their faces onto the other's body and I still wouldn't care... I'm curious what he could do, but I'm not invested in it.
                Now that you mention it, we'll probably get a mind switch with Morena playing the Riddler next season.

                Originally posted by Aries83
                Unless they had a backup generator, I'd say she's screwed...
                It's amazing. Even the writers forgot about her.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by darkphoenix21
                  Correction: All the recaps are saying that the characters in the masks are named Mother and Orphan. Here’s what Wikipedia states:

                  http://dc.*****.com/wiki/Cassandra_Cain_(Prime_Earth)
                  Thanks for the info. Admittedly, I don't enough about the Batman canon to have heard of them. Or Man-Bat.

                  I wonder if they were used as Easter Eggs or if we'll actually see more of them in Season 5.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by costas22
                    Butch is just a very good example of a character who overstayed his welcome. His arc this season proved that. It might have worked if his Grundy condition was irreversible, but it became all about him turning back to Butch and his days were numbered after that.
                    And what did he do as Grundy anyway? None of what we've seen is even based on the comic book character he's supposed to be, other than being born out of toxic waste. He was just everybody's "strong arm" until the writers realized it didn't work so well and said, "Oh, lets just change him back."

                    Originally posted by costas22
                    It could happen! I would like to see him again. It's the same problem with Butch though. You can tease their death so many times before they turn into Kenny from South Park.
                    Well, al Ghul could've easily broken into her hideout and swapped the real dagger with a fake (or had one of his followers do it for him). I did like how they confirmed that Barbara was basically the woman from the painting (or at least a doppelganger). It ties her to a character that has way more connections to Batman.

                    Originally posted by costas22
                    Ridiculous. It's like they are in a competition with themselves to give her sillier lines with each passing week. And how does that work? She's a Queen who cures the ill and who robs banks to give to the poor? Sounds like an identity crisis.
                    Sounds like the writers have seen her work on V...

                    Originally posted by costas22
                    Now that you mention it, we'll probably get a mind switch with Morena playing the Riddler next season.
                    Ooooh, then Oswald will fall in love with her when he realizes it's actually Edward! Then, Gordon will realize Nygma is Leslie and fall in love with him!

                    Originally posted by costas22
                    It's amazing. Even the writers forgot about her.
                    Or, an encore for her character was dependent on whether it was the final season or not. She had a good run. I'm ok with not seeing her again...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aries83
                      And what did he do as Grundy anyway? None of what we've seen is even based on the comic book character he's supposed to be, other than being born out of toxic waste. He was just everybody's "strong arm" until the writers realized it didn't work so well and said, "Oh, lets just change him back."
                      No, nothing of note. Just some comedy scenes with Ed and those matches at the fight club. Grundy just wasn't meant for ths phase of the show, IMO. He's a Batman villain who can only exist when Bruce is at the peak of his powers. Same goes for Bane. He's not as flexible as Penguin, Riddler and the Joker are.

                      For what it's worth, at least he lasted longer than he did on Arrow.

                      Originally posted by Aries83
                      Well, al Ghul could've easily broken into her hideout and swapped the real dagger with a fake (or had one of his followers do it for him). I did like how they confirmed that Barbara was basically the woman from the painting (or at least a doppelganger). It ties her to a character that has way more connections to Batman.


                      Sounded like a doppleganger or an ancestor to me.

                      Oh well. As repetitive as it would be, I hope he returns. Ra's is one of the top Batman villains and he shouldn't be killed off wen Bruce is still a teenager. Not to mention that for an immortal guy, he has been killed off on movies and television far too often.

                      Originally posted by Aries83
                      Ooooh, then Oswald will fall in love with her when he realizes it's actually Edward! Then, Gordon will realize Nygma is Leslie and fall in love with him!
                      See? So much potential for romantic melodrama and love triangles.

                      Originally posted by Aries83
                      Or, an encore for her character was dependent on whether it was the final season or not. She had a good run. I'm ok with not seeing her again...
                      Me too, sadly. I liked her and she became a good villain at the end, but I'm tired of seeing people on this show return from the dead as themselves or slightly altered.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I liked it. Could it have been better? of course. But then, I'm not on the writing staff...

                        Comment

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