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#4.18 "That's Entertainment"

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  • #4.18 "That's Entertainment"

    This was a pretty good episode, but felt scattered until the last few minutes.

    There were some good moments, like:
    • Jerome saying, "So serious"
    • Seeing a prototype Batmobile


    The rest of it felt kind of repetitive.

    The birthday cake scene with Bruce, Alfred, and Selina was cute.

    It was nice to see Oswald working in an antihero-like capacity.

    I thought Barbara's arc was the best part of the episode—at least until she started acting stuck up all of a sudden.

    That seemed short-sighted of her. The same could be said about Tabatha dismissing TLoS as a "cult."

    I'm not sure how I feel about the ending, though. As much as I have liked Jerome, I'm ready to see other villains in the spotlight.

    I know Jeremiah would be different, of course, but it would still be more of the same. I guess we'll have to see!

    What did everybody else think?
    Last edited by Aries83; 04-12-2018, 06:14 PM.

  • #2
    This one actually felt like a season finale. So eventful. And in way, I guess the last two episodes could be considered as a 2-parter about Jerome's last act. Personally speaking, I think these last couple of episodes have been among the series' best.

    Well, the cat is out of the bag now. Jerome is dead and Jeremiah will pick up the mantle to become The Joker. To be honest, I don't think we needed a passing of the torch. What made Jerome an excellent Joker is the fact that there was a series of events that led to him becoming the Joker. We saw him grow and evolve in the role over the course of the show. On the other hand, Jeremiah becomes the Joker simply because he inhaled the toxin. It just doesn't carry the same weight and it's hard to look at Jeremiah as anything but a victim. We will see how it plays out in the weeks to come, but at the moment I fail to see the point of this decision. On the positive side, Cameron will keep playing the Joker and I wouldn't have it any other way at this point. He's been terrific in the role, especially over the last couple of episodes.

    A very strong episode for Bruce as well. He was great in his scenes with Alfred and Selina as well as with Gordon and Jeremiah. I still can't believe he's getting to drive a car like that and he's not even 17 yet.

    Oswald was more of a comedy relief this week, which tends to be the case on this show from time to time. I agree that he's reached the point where he works better as a grey character instead of a straight faced villain. I just hope they get him down from that blimp by next week!

    I am not sure what to make of Barbara's arc. I don't think that portrait is real (wouldn't she have any recollection if she was actually 400+ years old?!). It looks like someone is trying to set her up in some way. I wonder if the writers regret killing off Ra's Al Ghul as quickly as they did? Because it seems like we see glimpses of his likeness in almost every episode. As things stand, this storyline looks to be building towards a war between 2 League of Shadows factions. Not myc up of tea, but hopefully Barbara and Tabitha will make it interesting. On another note, how great does Erin look with her hairstyle this season?

    No Lee this week. Thank heavens.

    Comment


    • #3
      Pretty good episode overall. I think this is what the 2nd or 3rd time Jerome has "died" on the show. Definitely had a bit of a "Killing Joke" vibe there at the end with Jeremiah cackling at the screen.

      I do like how Oswald, who seemed to be going along with everything at first, even started getting unnerved by all of this, and then Jim hit him with the logic of maintaining a criminal empire with a town full of lunatics. Nice win there.

      Also, supposedly Jerome was playing the Adam West Batman theme song when he was on the rock stage.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by costas22
        This one actually felt like a season finale. So eventful. And in way, I guess the last two episodes could be considered as a 2-parter about Jerome's last act. Personally speaking, I think these last couple of episodes have been among the series' best.

        Well, the cat is out of the bag now. Jerome is dead and Jeremiah will pick up the mantle to become The Joker. To be honest, I don't think we needed a passing of the torch. What made Jerome an excellent Joker is the fact that there was a series of events that led to him becoming the Joker. We saw him grow and evolve in the role over the course of the show. On the other hand, Jeremiah becomes the Joker simply because he inhaled the toxin. It just doesn't carry the same weight and it's hard to look at Jeremiah as anything but a victim. We will see how it plays out in the weeks to come, but at the moment I fail to see the point of this decision. On the positive side, Cameron will keep playing the Joker and I wouldn't have it any other way at this point. He's been terrific in the role, especially over the last couple of episodes.

        A very strong episode for Bruce as well. He was great in his scenes with Alfred and Selina as well as with Gordon and Jeremiah. I still can't believe he's getting to drive a car like that and he's not even 17 yet.

        Oswald was more of a comedy relief this week, which tends to be the case on this show from time to time. I agree that he's reached the point where he works better as a grey character instead of a straight faced villain. I just hope they get him down from that blimp by next week!

        I am not sure what to make of Barbara's arc. I don't think that portrait is real (wouldn't she have any recollection if she was actually 400+ years old?!). It looks like someone is trying to set her up in some way. I wonder if the writers regret killing off Ra's Al Ghul as quickly as they did? Because it seems like we see glimpses of his likeness in almost every episode. As things stand, this storyline looks to be building towards a war between 2 League of Shadows factions. Not myc up of tea, but hopefully Barbara and Tabitha will make it interesting. On another note, how great does Erin look with her hairstyle this season?

        No Lee this week. Thank heavens.
        Don't let Arrow fool you: The real Ra's Al Ghul is notoriously difficult to get rid of. There's no regrets for killing him off so quickly because he's not dead. He'll be back. He hasn't lasted for centuries by being a fool. I'm sure Babs is just acting as a proxy until Ra's sees what her potential is like for himself, then when he's had enough he'll step in an reclaim his throne and reunite the League all in 1 fell brilliant stroke. That's how good of a chess player/strategist the guy is.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by costas22
          Jeremiah becomes the Joker simply because he inhaled the toxin. It just doesn't carry the same weight and it's hard to look at Jeremiah as anything but a victim. We will see how it plays out in the weeks to come, but at the moment I fail to see the point of this decision.
          I agree that it feels like a cheat because he was exposed to the gas. To that end, I wonder if the effect of inhalation is permanent or not? Then again, maybe starting over with Jerome's twin is a means to create a darker, more sinister Joker vs. Jerome?

          Originally posted by costas22
          Oswald was more of a comedy relief this week, which tends to be the case on this show from time to time. I agree that he's reached the point where he works better as a grey character instead of a straight faced villain.
          I agree. He's a lot more animated on his own. It works, and it was nice to see that he was grounded enough to realize that Jerome's plan wouldn't benefit him in the long run.

          Originally posted by costas22
          I am not sure what to make of Barbara's arc. I don't think that portrait is real (wouldn't she have any recollection if she was actually 400+ years old?!). It looks like someone is trying to set her up in some way.
          It did cross my mind that maybe everything we saw was a front for some reason that hasn't been revealed yet. If al Ghul's spirit is within her, what happens to her when it's let out? If Ra's needs her to live until he can be brought back, then the possibly fake paintings and books are just there to convince Barbara that she has a larger role to play when she's really just al Ghul's pawn.

          Originally posted by costas22
          this storyline looks to be building towards a war between 2 League of Shadows factions. Not myc up of tea
          I'm glad you brought that up. The warring factions within TLoS makes absolutely no sense to me. If the members of the League know that al Ghul can transfer his spirit into a vessel, why did the members (who helped/dosed Tabatha) call Barbara an imposter—unless they already know that none of what was revealed to Barbara earlier was true?

          Originally posted by costas22
          No Lee this week. Thank heavens.
          Yes! Amen! Preach!...
          Last edited by Aries83; 04-13-2018, 04:04 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TyrantLord
            Don't let Arrow fool you: The real Ra's Al Ghul is notoriously difficult to get rid of. There's no regrets for killing him off so quickly because he's not dead. He'll be back. He hasn't lasted for centuries by being a fool. I'm sure Babs is just acting as a proxy until Ra's sees what her potential is like for himself, then when he's had enough he'll step in an reclaim his throne and reunite the League all in 1 fell brilliant stroke. That's how good of a chess player/strategist the guy is.
            Hope you're right because the storyline has suffered without him (and the trailer for next week's episode could possibly allude to his return). It's not so much the Arrow experience that has me worried about Ra's. Thankfully I've come to expect other shows not to be as self-destructive as Arrow has been. Gotham might not be a perfect show, but it does a better job of honoring its source material. I just wondered if DC prohibited the show from using the character too much, so the writers were forced to kill him off early in the season.

            Originally posted by Aries83
            I agree that it feels like a cheat because he was exposed to the gas. To that end, I wonder if the effect of inhalation is permanent or not? Then again, maybe starting over with Jerome's twin is a means to create a darker, more sinister Joker vs. Jerome?
            In these storylines there's usually an antidote so, in theory, and since GCPD confiscated the toxin that was onboard the blimp, Lucius could manufacture a cure. It was also interesting that Jerome said that he made that toxin especially for Jeremiah. So that could mean a number of things. Maybe the effects of the toxin are irreversible. Or maybe Jeremiah won't be crazy all the time and the toxin will kick in when he gets upset or something (that would explain why he's nowhere to be seen in the next couple of episodes).

            I think you are probably right that they were looking for a different kind of Joker. Less cartoony and over the top and more methodical and serious. I just hope we don't find out about a triplet brother if the writers ever decide that Jeremiah's Joker doesn't appeal to them anymore.

            Originally posted by Aries83
            I agree. He's a lot more animated on his own. It works, and it was nice to see that he was grounded enough to realize that Jerome's plan wouldn't benefit him in the long run.
            Well, he wasn't grounded by the end of the episode.

            Originally posted by Aries83
            It did cross my mind that maybe everything we saw was a front for some reason that hasn't been revealed yet. If al Ghul's spirit is within her, what happens to her when it's let out? If Ra's needs her to live until he can be brought back, then the possibly fake paintings and books are just there to convince Barbara that she has a larger role to play when she's really just al Ghul's pawn.
            True. It could be Ra's manipulating her in order to resurface in mind and body. I think it would make more sense than Barbara suddenly being his destined soulmate for over 400 years.

            Originally posted by Aries83
            I'm glad you brought that up. The warring factions within TLoS makes absolutely no sense to me. If the members of the League know that al Ghul can transfer his spirit into a vessel, why did the members (who helped/dosed Tabatha) call Barbara an imposter—unless they already know that none of what was revealed to Barbara earlier was true?
            I guess that can be explained in one of two ways: The League members are not aware that Ra's is using Barbara and tricking her into thinking she shares his lineage or Ra's truly is gone and the male faction of the League refuses to acknowledge Barabra as his heir. I really hope this won't lead to a men vs women rivalry within the League.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by costas22
              Jerome said that he made that toxin especially for Jeremiah. So that could mean a number of things. Maybe the effects of the toxin are irreversible.
              Oh, that's right. I nearly forgot that it was a "special" blend. If Jerome wanted his legacy to continue, then it's likely that the effects are permanent.

              Originally posted by costas22
              I just hope we don't find out about a triplet brother if the writers ever decide that Jeremiah's Joker doesn't appeal to them anymore.


              Originally posted by costas22
              Well, he wasn't grounded by the end of the episode.


              Originally posted by costas22
              It could be Ra's manipulating her in order to resurface in mind and body. I think it would make more sense than Barbara suddenly being his destined soulmate for over 400 years.
              I'd be ok with the soulmate storyline, so long as they don't regress her character too much (or make her overdependent on him).

              Originally posted by costas22
              I guess that can be explained in one of two ways: The League members are not aware that Ra's is using Barbara and tricking her into thinking she shares his lineage or Ra's truly is gone and the male faction of the League refuses to acknowledge Barabra as his heir.
              That's the other thing about the painting, though. If al Ghul already had it, then the members would know who he was looking for, meaning there would be absolutely no need to mistrust her when she surfaced as a vessel for his spirit.

              Then again, I remember the woman (I think her name was Leila) saying they never knew what was behind that door.

              I don't believe that for a second!

              If the woman in the painting died, and al Ghul knew she'd be reincarnated, then Ra's would have to make it known to the League that he was looking/waiting for her for however many centuries—meaning they would have to be aware of a doppelganger. That's why the mistrust makes no sense.

              How could the League not know of her existence?

              Originally posted by costas22
              I really hope this won't lead to a men vs women rivalry within the League.
              I totally agree. It would be cliche. In fact, it kind of already is

              Comment


              • #8
                Last episode for me was just another highlighting of problem is Gordon and the GCPD being able to take down the A game Batman villains and their plans. Gordon with the GCPD stopped a full on Joker plot of spreading laughing gas in Gotham to turn people mad, really? There is zero reason for Bruce to even become Batman if the GCPD is able to take down the threats like this when they are using the A-level schemes that Batman would normally deal with.

                Something that is obvious for numerous other things throughout the show where Gordon is able to handle and defeat Gotham villains in their final form.

                Like wouldn't be a problem if they actually had Bruce activity running around as a masked vigilante and working towards his way of becoming Batman, but they very clearly do not want to do that.

                Don't believe me? Look at how much they have Bruce running around as Bruce Wayne, like for example when taking on Jerome some episodes back or elsewhere.

                Sorry writers, your trying to have your cake and eat it too and it's not exactly working. Either have the villains in their finale form with Bruce as a full-on vigilante actively stopping them as the main character with Gordon and the GCPD being unable to as they keep failing.

                Or don't have the villains as their finale selves of Riddler, Freeze, Scarecrow, and so forth with Bruce, not as a vigilante.

                So yeah they've written themselves into a corner of basically not needing Batman at all if Gordon and the GCPD are able to handle the major villains and their plans.

                If they want to have a show where the GCPD can handle the main Gotham villains, then kill Bruce Wayne off since you clearly don't need him.

                Also, I've heard the reasoning 'Oh the villains are not at their A game or they are still learning" yeah I'm not buying that excuse at all. We've seen too much from the villains in the show where they have long since passed the point of being in their "learning" phase.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aries83
                  That's the other thing about the painting, though. If al Ghul already had it, then the members would know who he was looking for, meaning there would be absolutely no need to mistrust her when she surfaced as a vessel for his spirit.

                  Then again, I remember the woman (I think her name was Leila) saying they never knew what was behind that door.

                  I don't believe that for a second!

                  If the woman in the painting died, and al Ghul knew she'd be reincarnated, then Ra's would have to make it known to the League that he was looking/waiting for her for however many centuries—meaning they would have to be aware of a doppelganger. That's why the mistrust makes no sense.

                  How could the League not know of her existence?
                  Yeah, just rewatched it myself and Leila does say that Ra's kept his secrets and that no one else had ever opened that door. So I don't know how plausible it is, but we are meant to believe that finding Barbara and grooming her to succeed him was a task that Ra's took up on his own. That would explain why the men of the League are refusing to accept her. Or maybe the whole thing is a sham created by Ra's to use Barbara. And the reason why the guys who took Tabby are calling Barbara an imposter is because they know that Ra's was using her. I really hope the storyline gets explained further in the weeks to come.


                  Originally posted by Haggard01
                  Also, I've heard the reasoning 'Oh the villains are not at their A game or they are still learning" yeah I'm not buying that excuse at all. We've seen too much from the villains in the show where they have long since passed the point of being in their "learning" phase.
                  Not to defend the writers, but I think that's partially true. The villains who are going to become Batman's gallery of rogues in the future are in different stages of their development. The likes of Poison Ivy and Scarecrow only managed to discover the full extent of their powers this season. In both cases, there's still room for them to become tougher to handle. Selina, if we consider Catwoman a villain, still has some way to go. Jerome was a proto-Joker and Jeremiah just got injected with the toxin. So clearly he still has some way to go before he becomes Batman's arch nemesis.

                  At the same time, I would agree that the likes of Mad Hatter, The Riddler, Dr Freeze and Firefly are the complete article in terms of who they are meant to be. The one I am iffy about is Penguin. He's come a long way in terms of villainy and we've seen as a mafia boss repeatedly. However, it feels like he's lacking something that would make him a full blown dastadly villain. Maybe it's the fact that the writers keep blurring the moral line with him.

                  All that said, as Bruce approaches adulthood, they should definitely dial back on Gordon's heroics. They are probably tempted to make him the hero of the show because Ben McKenzie is good at playing badass roles (plus a show where the villains rule the city might not have the same appeal), but the GCPD needs to start reaching the state of disarray that forces Bruce to step up and save the city.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    When it comes to Jerome as the "Proto Joker" and Jeremiah being the genuine article:

                    I dunno why, but I'm loving this route. In all of Batman lore it's long been rumored that Joker's creation was actually Bruce's greatest failure as a vigilante (pre Jason Todd, of course). If this plays out like I'm thinking, even hoping it does: What if Bruce discovers what is happening to Jeremiah early on and tries to help redeem/cure him before he goes full clown? Then Bruce DOES fail.

                    That would develop into and account for the Joker's full blown hatred and obsession for the Batman in Bruce's adult life once his vigilante evolution is complete. Not only would Jeremiah blame Bruce for his condition but there could be a twisted sense of blame for his brother's death as well, since Bruce was one of the victims he was trying to kill in the first place. If this new Joker somehow works out that Bruce is the vigilante working out of Gotham (which he very will could given his particular smarts), that's going to make this story VERY interesting.

                    As for the whole Barbara thing: Here's something to consider. What if the situation is more simple than we realize: What if the woman in the painting isn's Babs, but an ancestor? Ra's is centuries old after all, and it makes sense that Babs's family comes from royalty given their wealth and status. Thats the perfect kind of family Ra's would love to exploit and possibly associate himself with.

                    If this is the case, Ra's may have seen the present day Barbara and realized that she's the spitting image of the woman he most likely had a romantic encounter with at the very least. Hence his current attraction to her now.

                    Dunno how much fact will be revealed to connect the dots I just pointed out but it would help clear things up. Hopefully we get some explanations in this seasons remaining episodes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This whole Jerome not being The Joker and Jeremiah into The Joker just like doesn't make sense to me and for right now is certainly not my favorite storyline.

                      I don't get what was wrong with Jerome or why they even felt the need t kill him off yet again to bring in Jeremiah.

                      They've spent 4 seasons building up to Jerome, the whole 3x14 episode with Bruce and him was setting up the Batman and Joker relationship, that episode itself had multiple Joker homages, along with in season 4 Jerome invented the laughing gas. Ok fine Crane was the one who actually did it but it was Jerome's idea. Plus you know Jerome acted like The Joker as well.

                      I was fine with Jerome just being the Joker without actually calling him that for obvious reasons no Batman yet.

                      Now kill Jerome off, bring in this twin bother we've never hear of before quickly set him up and turn him into The Joker of classic bleached white skin and such due to inhaling special gas made by Jerome seems like really lazy and cheap.

                      The only good thing I see in this is Cameron Monaghan playing Jeremiah aka the Joker.

                      Seems like the only reason they are doing this is to prove fans wrong "Of ha, we were right all along Jerome I not going to be the Joker" or because they think they are being smart, when they aren't.
                      Last edited by Haggard01; 04-17-2018, 06:19 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Haggard01
                        This whole Jerome not being The Joker and Jeremiah into The Joker just like doesn't make sense to me and for right now is certainly not my favorite storyline.

                        I don't get what was wrong with Jerome or why they even felt the need t kill him off yet again to bring in Jeremiah.

                        They've spent 4 seasons building up to Jerome, the whole 3x14 episode with Bruce and him was setting up the Batman and Joker relationship, that episode itself had multiple Joker homages, along with in season 4 Jerome invented the laughing gas. Ok fine Crane was the one who actually did it but it was Jerome's idea. Plus you know Jerome acted like The Joker as well.

                        I was fine with Jerome just being the Joker without actually calling him that for obvious reasons no Batman yet.

                        Now kill Jerome off, bring in this twin bother we've never hear of before quickly set him up and turn him into The Joker of classic bleached white skin and such due to inhaling special gas made by Jerome seems like really lazy and cheap.

                        The only good thing I see in this is Cameron Monaghan playing Jeremiah aka the Joker.

                        Seems like the only reason they are doing this is to prove fans wrong "Of ha, we were right all along Jerome I not going to be the Joker" or because they think they are being smart, when they aren't.
                        To be fair, the real Joker in the comics was only created by tumbling into a giant tub of some weird acidic chemical stuff, otherwise he was just a normal guy working for a crime lord before hand. It's not like he had much build to be Joker before hand either.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TyrantLord
                          To be fair, the real Joker in the comics was only created by tumbling into a giant tub of some weird acidic chemical stuff, otherwise he was just a normal guy working for a crime lord before hand. It's not like he had much build to be Joker before hand either.
                          True but I was more of referring to if we never saw The Joker on screen and we just had Jerome as the man would possibly one day become The Joker I would have been fine with that.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Haggard01
                            Last episode for me was just another highlighting of problem is Gordon and the GCPD being able to take down the A game Batman villains and their plans. Gordon with the GCPD stopped a full on Joker plot of spreading laughing gas in Gotham to turn people mad, really? There is zero reason for Bruce to even become Batman if the GCPD is able to take down the threats like this when they are using the A-level schemes that Batman would normally deal with.

                            Something that is obvious for numerous other things throughout the show where Gordon is able to handle and defeat Gotham villains in their final form.


                            Like wouldn't be a problem if they actually had Bruce activity running around as a masked vigilante and working towards his way of becoming Batman, but they very clearly do not want to do that.

                            Don't believe me? Look at how much they have Bruce running around as Bruce Wayne, like for example when taking on Jerome some episodes back or elsewhere.

                            Sorry writers, your trying to have your cake and eat it too and it's not exactly working. Either have the villains in their finale form with Bruce as a full-on vigilante actively stopping them as the main character with Gordon and the GCPD being unable to as they keep failing.

                            Or don't have the villains as their finale selves of Riddler, Freeze, Scarecrow, and so forth with Bruce, not as a vigilante.

                            So yeah they've written themselves into a corner of basically not needing Batman at all if Gordon and the GCPD are able to handle the major villains and their plans.

                            If they want to have a show where the GCPD can handle the main Gotham villains, then kill Bruce Wayne off since you clearly don't need him.

                            Also, I've heard the reasoning 'Oh the villains are not at their A game or they are still learning" yeah I'm not buying that excuse at all. We've seen too much from the villains in the show where they have long since passed the point of being in their "learning" phase.
                            Just because Gordon and co. are having success now doesn't mean it will stay that way, meaning that the villains are playing the long game in the end and eventually rendering past successes moot.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I suspect that Jerome is going to come back to life at some point... nobody stays dead for long in Gotham after all. I think this is leading up to the "three jokers" story line like they had in rebirth.
                              It's been kind of canon that the Joker often had wildly different and conflicting background stories on how he came to be the joker. In one story, he was a failing comedian who were trying so hard to support his pregnant wife, in another one he was the leader of the red hood gang, and in another he was just the right hand of some mobster. And so on forth.

                              If anything... I think this might be part of Jerome's plan, to play the greatest joke on Gotham by creating several jokers like himself and making Gotham think that they were all the same person. the conflicting reports on The Joker's background would only add to the Joker's appeal, because "life is just like a mupilite choice poll."

                              That's just my theory anyway.

                              Comment

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