Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "We Fall?"

[BkWurm1]

I really liked the episode for the most part but I have no idea what they're trying for with NTA. It seems unlikely that I'm supposed to want to punch Curtis repeatedly while screaming "Shut up!" but he's being such a raging hypocrite that I can't really see how they're expecting a different reaction.

I really want to believe they want me to want to punch them.
At the very least, I think they do want the NTA to appear over confidant. They made SOOO many digs about beign their own team and not needing help or wanting help that I think eventually something will have to come of it. It's just too much to believe otherwise. I wouldn't be shocked if it's just the writers being clueless to how the audience responds but I'm cautiously optimistic that they are being written as annoying on purpose, at least part of the time.

[mellowyellowdiamonds]

LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Curtis needs to be written off the show but that's my only gripe for today. I don't even mind the Noobs because as long as they stay on their side and don't share scenes with OTA, I don't really have to deal with them! Honestly I treat their scenes like those gawd awful flashbacks back in the day. Them having their own plot leaves time and space for OTA, Delicity and Olicity scenes! Be off with you Noobs!

I burst into tears at Felicity's speech. That was a love letter to the Green Arrow delivered by his wife Felicity Smoak and it was in the words of Barney Stinson (hey I liked him a lot on HIMYM!)...........LEGENDARY!!!!!!!!!! THAT is how you write the ultimate OTP of all OTPs!

Great episode, good action scenes, amazing character/relationship development, loved William being competent in a crisis and Felicity being able to predict Oliver's moves in the field (wicked me had this thought that it means if she was his nemesis she could take him down because she knows his fight pattern!). The ending left me very stressed even though I loved the episode which I guess is a good thing!

[katakombs]

I don't understand why a man as clever as Cayden James gives Oliver an impossible demand. Ten million dollars one day he may have got away with, although it monetizes his pain in an ugly way, but ten million dollars every day? There is no way Oliver can deliver that.

Was his purpose to out Oliver as the Green Arrow? There are more elegant ways he could have done that.

[BkWurm1]

LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Curtis needs to be written off the show but that's my only gripe for today. I don't even mind the Noobs because as long as they stay on their side and don't share scenes with OTA, I don't really have to deal with them! Honestly I treat their scenes like those gawd awful flashbacks back in the day. Them having their own plot leaves time and space for OTA, Delicity and Olicity scenes! Be off with you Noobs!

I burst into tears at Felicity's speech. That was a love letter to the Green Arrow delivered by his wife Felicity Smoak and it was in the words of Barney Stinson (hey I liked him a lot on HIMYM!)...........LEGENDARY!!!!!!!!!! THAT is how you write the ultimate OTP of all OTPs!

Great episode, good action scenes, amazing character/relationship development, loved William being competent in a crisis and Felicity being able to predict Oliver's moves in the field (wicked me had this thought that it means if she was his nemesis she could take him down because she knows his fight pattern!). The ending left me very stressed even though I loved the episode which I guess is a good thing!

I love how your mind works. Lol.

But yes, wasn't that just wonderful! And something that felt fresh for the show, and watching them risk their lives while Felicity talked about the love and belief she held hand in hand with the worry. It was so honest and like you called it, a love letter. And they were so good together. From that yummy "Good morning" kiss to to them having multiple adult conversations. And a family meeting. And it's not all perfect but it's so good and this is what I always saw from when I first started shipping them. That supportive, team within a team. The faith and love even knowing how it could all be taken away. Really beautiful.

[Dark_Knight92]

So, as I stated above, this was mostly a very good episode, except for the three whiny, arrogant, ungrateful, hypocritical wish they were as good a team as OTA asses. If not for Vince giving Curtis the intel that he was a double agent, those three would still be hanging out wherever, unaware of what was going on in the city, and that Dinah, a cop, was unaware of what happened to her captain, and she had the utter gall to call Oliver out for waiting 24 hours?! GTFO, you twat.

The voiceover of Felicity telling William about what Oliver does, intercut with the scenes of what he was doing, was very beautifully done, and it sort of reminded me of what Gordon told his son at the end of The Dark Knight, although the latter was more dismal and sad. But this show is known for stealing (yes, stealing!) stuff from Batman.

ETA Just wanted to say hi to posters I recognize ==I'm GHScorpiosRule from that other place! I just wanted a more forum appropriate name for m'self here. (I hope that was okay to post here).

[BkWurm1]

Waves back. You might recognize me on other forums as Bkwurm1. I'm creative like that. Lol.

[Dark_Knight92]

Waves back. You might recognize me on other forums as Bkwurm1. I'm creative like that. Lol.

[KSiteTV]

I thought this was the strongest episode since the crossover. The whole villain plot still is a confusing mess, perhaps intentionally. Cayden James just walking into the Mayor's office was the first time I saw him as a non-mustache twirling, believable threat, so that is great. I liked that the two teams worked together, though this team vs. team drama was getting old.

I also really liked how it was handled to have the discussion with William about Oliver's other life. No one totally understands that like Felicity does. I'm a big pusher in William being a better part of Season 6, as a big lesson Oliver is learning is how to be a good father and different from his own father, and I hope they don't shunt him off with Thea and Roy later or something.

Also, though Vince helping (probably to build their "trust," similar to what Black Siren did with Quentin) was cool and all, I'm still really, really not feeling Vince as a character.

[ArrowEsq]

I thought this episode was a 9 out of 10.

To be frank, I am still very much in love with Season 5. It went back to its Arrow roots with the action. Prometheus was a superb villain through and through. Arrow is strongest when it feels grounded in its action and its philosophical undertones. And Arrow delivered in that department.

This season I have been a lot more skeptical. I am not too much in love with the concept of a gang of villains. I think the writing has been a bit choppy. First Vigilante is wreaking havoc, then a hero/villain, then he's on the path of being somewhere in the middle but likely a hero down the line as he's seemingly "redeeming" himself. I think he just hasn't been fleshed out enough. Cayden James is your typical stock villain that I think Michael Emerson is just phoning in at this point. He has done this before and there is not much he needs to do. Perhaps he's even over-acting at times. Richard Dragon honestly hasn't had much air time. Supposedly he's a very skilled fighter which I would like to see more of.

I am finding it difficult to accept that Cayden James is doing this all because he lost his son, if that's not really the case and he could have easily hacked and figured out that Arrow had nothing to do with his death. Unless... someone is pulling the strings. I am suspicious that there truly is one Big Bad that has put into motion all that's happened so far (Oops, I'm thinking of the Flash. Sorry. The Thinker is a hell of a villain

The NTA is so whiny it's just unbearable. To be honest, Green Arrow is a one-man army and he barely needs help. Yes when the odds are stacked against you and there are metahumans involved, it's better to have a team. But, I'm more than happy with OTA with the occasional help on an as-needed basis. If you're going to roll with a team, then petty fights and divisions are just a waste of time.

BUT, besides the negative, I loved all the character interactions. The dialogue between Felicity and William. The interaction between Oliver and William. William showing signs of being a potential future hero maybe? I enjoyed the depth of the episode. It was a quality episode and I hope there are many more good ones to come.

[evaba]

Overnight ratings for "We fall":

http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-overnight-ratings-fall-for-we-fall/

[costas22]

Overnight ratings for "We fall":

http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-ov...l-for-we-fall/

It's a funny thing. I remember certain people blaming Season 5 for distancing itself from what made Arrow work. Season 6 has apparently rectified that (Olicity reunited, Olicity got married, William became a glorified Olicity child and "OTA" is a thing again), but the average in demo and viewership compared to Season 5's first 11 episodes has dropped by 0.2 and 400k viewers respectively.

But at least the show is back on course now.

[Amarice]

It's a funny thing. I remember certain people blaming Season 5 for distancing itself from what made Arrow work. Season 6 has apparently rectified that (Olicity reunited, Olicity got married, William became a glorified Olicity child and "OTA" is a thing again), but the average in demo and viewership compared to Season 5's first 11 episodes has dropped by 0.2 and 400k viewers respectively.

But at least the show is back on course now.

I would say that "Arrow" is buried deep in the ground, as much as true arrow can when misses a target. Nevertheless I think they will want to squeeze out 7 season - a true Olicity baby needs to be born to cross out another point from that 100 Olicity wishes list or something that is currently the writers' manual. But well, at least 5k people in Vancouver have steady work.

Deeply saddened upon hearing that Frank Pike was killed off.

[evaba]

It's a funny thing. I remember certain people blaming Season 5 for distancing itself from what made Arrow work. Season 6 has apparently rectified that (Olicity reunited, Olicity got married, William became a glorified Olicity child and "OTA" is a thing again), but the average in demo and viewership compared to Season 5's first 11 episodes has dropped by 0.2 and 400k viewers respectively.

My impression is that the narrative propagated by this part of the fandom has undergone a radical change in season six. Despite the fact that 'live' ratings was a major argument in seasons prior to season six, these same ratings now seem to be irrelevant when it comes to measuring the mainstream popularity/commercial validity of a certain character/ship/team constellation. As you rightly point out, the decline in ratings in S5 was very much a focus for the fans you mentioned, who cited the lack of Felicity and the Oliver/Felicity romance (as well as the lack of emphasis on the Original Team of Oliver/Felicity/Diggle) as the main reason for the drop in viewership. In fact, the discontinuation of the Oliver/Felicity romance as well as the introduction of the second-stringer "noobs" (Dinah, Curtis, Wild Dog) was often cited as the main reason why the 'live' ratings dropped from an average of 0.9 in the demo and a 2.489 in viewers in season four to a 0.6 demo/1.755 audience in season five.

On the other hand, these same folks claimed that IF the writers had focussed on Felicity Smoak and her love affair with Oliver Queen and on OTA storylines and scenes, the S5 demos/audience numbers would have been considerably better...Now, regardless of what some fans may have imagined concerning the benevolent impact of more Felicity/Olicity/OTA in season six, the demos and numbers have actually contintued to go DOWN:

https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/arrow-season-six-ratings/

So, despite all the pro-Felicity/Olicity/OTA features which you duly noticed (Olicity reunited, Olicity got married, William became a glorified Olicity child and "OTA" is a thing again) the demos/viewer numbers have NOT increased in season six. Instead the demos/viewer numbers have ranged from an all-time low of 1.094 million viewers/0.3 demo to a season high of 1.522/0.6 demo for the non-crossover episodes. So, despite the fact that Oliver and Felicity are now happily married and practising their parenting skills with William (maybe with the prospect of Olicity babies in S7?), and that "OTA" is now a thing again, season six ratings are lower than they were in season five.

Surprisingly, the S6 decline in 'live' ratings is not at all a matter of concern for the folks who used to post all over "Arrow" social media during season five (including Stephen Amell's FB page and the producers' twitter feeds), expressing their concern that the lack of Felicity/Olicity/OTA importance/screen time was damaging the show. In fact the same folks who were so concerned about the season five 'live' ratings are now claiming that other modes of viewing (streaming, Netflix, DVD sales etc) have made 'live' ratings irrelevant when it comes to gauging the success of the show and its narrative content. In fact, other manners of viewing "Arrow" are now considered much more relevant and important than 'live' ratings, although viewing modes cannot have changed THAT much since season five. Another (IMHO valid) argument that is put forth is that all shows lose viewers over time, regardless of content. However, this argument makes the issue of CONTENT rather irrelevant, since it makes it impossible for any fandom faction to claim that the preponderance of their fave character/ship has any impact whatsoever on the ratings...which would have declined with time anyway.

There is also the issue of promotion. The current idea among some fans seems to be that the promotion for season six has not been focused on the elements that truly interest the audience at large, which in their opinion is Felicity Smoak, the Olicity relationship and OTA. The CW promos have rather been featuring either Black Siren or Black Canary. Since the Nielsen households who represent the audience at large are not interested in these characters (commonly know as "the Birds"), CW's PR department's misguided attempt to promote them is regarded as one of the reasons for the decline in S6 Nielsen ratings/demos. However, this argument is hard to prove, since it's impossible to "replay" or change promos and prove that those with romantic moments between Oliver and Felicity or those focussing on Felicity's non-masked heroism would have attracted more viewers for upcoming episodes.

My take on the matter is that the general quality of the writing and execution is what really matters, and that the failure of Guggenheim et al to provide enjoyable escapist entertainment for the majority of viewers who are not shippers or partisans of a particular character/team constellation is the major reason why "Arrow" has failed in the 'live' ratings. With the plethora of well-written, well-plotted and well-acted comic book genre shows available right now, it's not that odd that "Arrow" is at the bottom of the hierarchy, both when it comes to ratings and to online fandom appreciation.

[President_Luthor]

To be fair, the "worst" comics/genre shows have already been cancelled. The Shannara Chronicles, The Tomorrow People, Beauty and the Beast and their ilk.

Arrow, Flash and their tv cousins apparently still reach some desired demographic the networks want (I probably fall around the outer limits of that target audience), and/or still make money internationally.

Now that the network up here has decided to play musical chairs with Arrow's scheduling this year, I'm left to resort to overnight recaps and YouTube for the time being for Arrow. The only other Berlantiverse series I still try to follow --and not every week either-- is The Flash ... and it's just ... okay. No one's knocking it out of the park either. The Thinker may be better than Team Cayden as a villain BUT S5's Prometheus is still better than both of them.

It's not Emerson's fault, it's just they don't give him all that much to work with. And what they do give him isn't that compelling. S5 and Adrian Chase are looking better and better as this season goes on, I'm sad to say.

Black Siren is really the only entertaining one of the bunch so far in S6. She's unapologetically irreverent and sassy as hell in her villainy. I don't feel all that invested in Vigilante or Richard Dragon, but I will reserve final judgment if someone is planning a blindside later. And if they get around to giving Anatoly more in the second half to do, then he always entertains.

I think my superhero/genre tv fatigue is finally kicking in. I am checking out what is likely the last season of The X Files, knowing that this is its swan song. There may be better quality shows out there ... I just don't really care to watch them or begin to get invested.

Its not a DC v. Marvel thing or cable v. Netflix thing with me. It's time and fatigue mostly.

[BkWurm1]

The argument about the ratings is entertaining. No one can point to season 5 having better rating than season 6 and make the claim it means that the show gets better rating without Olicity when season 3 and 4 which were by all accounts very Olicity heavy seasons had much, much better ratings than season 5, lol. (and I'd even say season 2 was Olicity heavy just not in the same way)

And if the narrative has switched to standard ratings not being a good measurment anymore, it's because that is what everyone in the industry has admitted. And yes, things are changing very fast year to year. And nearly ALL shows on all networks have experienced a drop in viewership. The head honchos at the CW assure us on their network at least most of that has just been from shifted viewership and that so far at least for Arrow it has actually been one of the most steady of their shows, viewership wise.

And that .03 demo, let's not forget it was Thanksgiving Day and even the ratings system won't take it into account for the seaon average because of that, lol.

It is year six and all the lovely viewers that did leave after how season four played out and that were not lured back by season five, they aren't coming back to live tv. That's how it works. Viewer don't come back. They move on. Maybe they'll someday play catch up on Netflix though if they hear stuff they liked about the show.

In the meantime, I'm not worried about the ratings since the network is happy enough with them. And I know I'm certainly enjoying the season this year. So much great character work even if the villains have only just begun to show their teeth.