I agree. The writing is beyond repetitive at this point. You can add the Vigilante storyline to the list of repetitive plotlines too, by the way. He's just another former loved one who came back from the dead all screwed up - just like Sara (twice), Thea, Andy and Slade before him. Even the Black Siren storyline is a variation of the overused resurrection plot point. Also, am I the only one who has noticed that the writers can't be bothered to write character-specific reactions to events anymore? The scene where Dinah was letting out her frustration on the bamboo dummy was a great example of this because we have seen that exact moment with Sara and Oliver before. The lying and secret-keeping falls in the same vein, too. Is there any character left on the show who hasn't kept a secret from the rest of Team Arrow for no reason at all? We've seen Oliver do it several times. Laurel has done it. Felicity has done it. Quentin has done it. Diggle is currently doing it and now it's Dinah's turn. It's ridiculous.
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I agree. The writing is beyond repetitive at this point. You can add the Vigilante storyline to the list of repetitive plotlines too, by the way. He's just another former loved one who came back from the dead all screwed up - just like Sara (twice), Thea, Andy and Slade before him. Even the Black Siren storyline is a variation of the overused resurrection plot point. Also, am I the only one who has noticed that the writers can't be bothered to write character-specific reactions to events anymore? The scene where Dinah was letting out her frustration on the bamboo dummy was a great example of this because we have seen that exact moment with Sara and Oliver before. The lying and secret-keeping falls in the same vein, too. Is there any character left on the show who hasn't kept a secret from the rest of Team Arrow for no reason at all? We've seen Oliver do it several times. Laurel has done it. Felicity has done it. Quentin has done it. Diggle is currently doing it and now it's Dinah's turn. It's ridiculous.
And honestly, how many times have we seen Oliver struggle with the kill-no kill dilemma or the civilian life versus vigilante life dilemma (in S3 he drove off into the sunset with the Love of his Life in order to pursue a blissful suburban existence, and in S5 he wants to devote his life to his son)? Heck, even in season one he finally decided to declare his love to Laurel because he thought that his mission was over.
I understand that some themes get rehashed in every long-running series, but the "Arrow" writers are so afraid to write their characters in a manner that might alienate the fandom (and especially the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fans which they for some reason believe represent the audience at large) that there are no stakes and little hope for interesting changes left. They blew up a whole island in a supposedly epic cliffhanger, but the only one who died was a secondary character who few people cared enough about to mourn her death. To my mind the "Arrow" writers have become so caught up in a rut of predictable plot developments and shipper fanservice that I personally believe that the ratings will keep on declining in season six. It doesn't matter if Oliciters manage to trend every week, or if they keep on promoting their girl/ship/Original Team all over social media.....average viewers demand more than a certain percentage of screen time/story importance alloted to a particular character/relationship in order to keep watching, especially with so many new well-written and well-produced series in the same genre.Last edited by evaba; 11-13-2017, 02:41 AM.Comment
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I'll be honest: I gave this episode a 5, and that's only because the Deathstroke scenes were damn good.
Oh, great, Vigilante's Dinah's ex-boyfriend and undercover partner, and he has Wolverine-like healing. Lovely.
Dinah's apparently having issues with whether she wants to remain a vigilante with the way she's reacting to the legislation and the comments by that rookie cop. Wow, she's that easily swayed?
Only reason Felicity managed to not give away everything was because she and Watson had minimal contact in this episode. If she'd been faced with an elongated convo.... yeah, she'd have let something slip and be in a jail cell.
Slade drugging Oliver and then going on a full Deathstroke rampage was awesome. Sadly, had to give Deathstroke a strike for his compliment to Felicity, even if he used it as an insult aimed at Oliver, because I am so tired of the villains praising Felicity.Comment
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Originally posted by KSiteTVSo I guess I have to actually be online to create threads because no one else wants to or cares?
Considering that Guggenheim and his writers have been catering to the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fans since season three, I can't pity them for the shoddy ratings and the lack of fandom interest. I'll happily let the Oliciters swoon over their Queen's IMHO pointless storylines and lackluster dramatic acting, the trite/saccharine Olicity "feels" and the contrived/retconned #OTA "dynamics" (and the general sub-par plotting/writing), while I enjoy series like "The Punisher", whose quality of writing, acting and general execution probably will be leagues above the current "Arrow" fanservice mess.
It's not accidental that most polls (at least those that haven't been brigaded by Olicity fans) will cite seasons one and two as the best "Arrow" seasons, much thanks to the presence of such fine actors as Susanna Thompson, Colin Salmon, Colin Donnell, Paul Blackthorne et al and a kind of writing that made "Arrow" an instant success in the comic book adaptation/action genre. Right now it's mostly a rehashing of the same ole same storylines and plot points, and with so many other well-produced and well-acted superhero shows around, I can understand that Guggenheim and company rely on the shippers to keep the show alive. That is probably why they had Slade praise Felicity (and Oliver agree with him!) in this ep, while the non-shipper fans cringed and shook their heads at the silliness and the cheapness of it all.
Sorry for the offtop.Comment
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I'll probably be posting on the Ksite Punisher forum, and I'm sure that I'll be less grumpy and negative! I just saw the trailer, and I'm SYKED (as the kiddos like to say!). Bernthal is a brilliant actor, and the action scenes are breath-taking. I also hope that the whole ruthless avenger/vigilante theme and the issue of whether anyone has the right to kill/maim in order to bring justice will be dealt with during the course of the series. To me this is an important aspect of superhero fiction, especially when your (anti)hero is shown to be extremely violent and lethal. This aspect has been completely glossed over on "Arrow" lately, as the show moves closer to the typical CW shipper oriented story content, with marriage bliss and domestic happiness for the titular hero..... whose dark background as a serial killer is almost obliterated in order to capitalize on Olicity "feels" and feed into the fantasies of the shipper fandom.
I posted a more detailed comparison between (super)heroes and antiheroes in the Marvel Punisher thread here.Last edited by DoubleDevil; 11-13-2017, 12:38 PM.Comment
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Here I fear you're forcing me to defend the show. Yes they glossed over the dark beginnings of Arrow but Oliver Queen is a hero in the comics even if his origin began as an antihero. The shift was to be expected. By contrast Frank Castle doesn't want to be a hero, he doesn't want to be a beacon of light, he wants to be the boogieman that strikes fear in the most ruthless of villains.
I posted a more detailed comparison between (super)heroes and antiheroes in the Marvel Punisher thread here.
I guess I find it a bit hard to stomach that a former serial killer (who only in the past season was seen literally skinning a man and who (albeit under torture) admitted that he gets a twisted pleasure from killing) is now morphing into your typical Barbara Cartland hero. I know it might sound a bit snobbish, but that is what the whole Olicity love saga represents to me: a shallow, somewhat "fluffy" and immature romance novel relationship, which is basically a confection made out of fandom demands and the usual CW roma tropes. To me "Arrow" Oliver's violent/lethal mindset and methods can't just be conjured away so that his character can be made to fit into the Olicity narrative of the perfect union of souls, Olicity babies, domestic happiness etc. etc. I have less problems with Barry being engaged in a low-key domestic happiness scenario with Iris, because he was never portrayed as an avenger/killer with PTSD in the first place.
However, I do agree that the CW Berlanti shows would never present an antihero as dark and uncompromising as The Punisher, and I think the main reason is that such a character doesn't fit into their unrealistic and tropey portrayal of male-female relationships.....because even those "heroes" who are not "good" (like the Salvatore brothers) somehow have their bad deeds glossed over so that the writers can give their specific demographic their fill of typical CW-style romance writing.Last edited by evaba; 11-13-2017, 02:30 PM.Comment
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You are right about the difference between the comic book Green Arrow and The Punisher. However, to my mind there is a disjunction between the initially "dark" and vengeful "Arrow" version of Oliver, whose kill count are up to at least sixty people by now, and the supposedly harmonious current Daddy figure who is about to celebrate a wedding with a female character who has more or less consistently been portrayed as an innocent beacon of light and whose quirks and quips make her a decidedly more "light" (or even "lightweight") character than most other women in Oliver's life (Moira, Sara, Laurel).
I guess I find it a bit hard to stomach that a former serial killer (who only in the past season was seen literally skinning a man and who (albeit under torture) admitted that he gets a twisted pleasure from killing) is now morphing into your typical Barbara Cartland hero. I know it might sound a bit snobbish, but that is what the whole Olicity love saga represents to me: a shallow, somewhat "fluffy" and immature romance novel relationship, which is basically a confection made out of fandom demands and the usual CW roma tropes. To me "Arrow" Oliver's violent/lethal mindset and methods can't just be conjured away so that his character can be made to fit into the Olicity narrative of the perfect union of souls, Olicity babies, domestic happiness etc. etc. I have less problems with Barry being engaged in a low-key domestic happiness scenario with Iris, because he was never portrayed as an avenger/killer with PTSD in the first place.
However, I do agree that the CW Berlanti shows would never present an antihero as dark and uncompromising as The Punisher, and I think the main reason is that such a character doesn't fit into their unrealistic and tropey portrayal of male-female relationships.....because even those "heroes" who are not "good" (like the Salvatore brothers) somehow have their bad deeds glossed over so that the writers can give their specific demographic their fill of typical CW-style romance writing.
I have no idea what the CW actually stands for (and I don't really care) but as far as I'm concerned it stands for Childish Women in my book.Comment
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The only thing that saved this episode from being gutter thrash was Manu Bennett's presence as Slade Wilson/Deathstroke. It's always a treat to see him on screen in that role...he's great.
The Vigilante reveal was so disappointing and underwhelming.....I was hoping it was a much bigger reveal than who it was.Comment
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I'm thinking of stuff like Oliver hanging up his bow to become a civilian and exploring family life (which was what he did with Felicity between S3 and S4) while someone else who is pretending to be Green Arrow fights crime in Star City (a throwback to Roy impersonating GA and Diggle/Speedy/BC fighting crime without Oliver).
I see your point but frankly, I do like Oliver exploring family life as it develops his character in the right direction. After all, his fear of this kind of life made him flee onto his fathers ship with Sara. So this part of his story shows how he confronts his inner demons. Also, somebody else impersonation GA should be the rule rather than the exception - I always found it strange that Oliver was so rarely ill (like having a cold for a week) that he never really needed it before.
I miss Thea, too, and I do think there is much room for her development left they should explore. Is it possible that there are not-writer reasons Willa is not as often at Arrow?
Also, I wouldn't have complained about Slade's Felicity praise if this character shilling hadn't been part of a recurring pattern of similar in fiction fawning over Felicity over the course of several seasons. In fact, on another forum there were threads even BEFORE the Slade episode, where people predicted that he would say something (positive) about Felicity, because everyone and his mother (even the Big Bads!) have to single out Felicity Smoak and praise her superior intelligence, "empathy" and general "specialness" in relation to every other woman in the Arrowverse.
I personally think this exaggerated shilling is detrimental to Felicity's character portrayal, because it really highlights her role as a Mary Sue/writers' pet. If Slade's mention of her brilliance had been an isolated instance it wouldn't have been noticed the way it was, but now it just fuels the dislike for her character, at least in some corners of the fandom.
If you recall Slade once expressed his surprise and general dissatisfaction with Oliver that he chose a "weak woman". I think, considering how things are currently between Oliver and Slade, trying to make up for that is in-character for Slade. But I have no doubts that he would not chose Felicity for Oliver if he had a saying it in - he has not changed that much.
So I think all those Felicity fans and Felicity haters who now think this means Slade is a Felicity fan too are wrong. He is just trying to get Oliver to have a good opinion of him again. Because just as Slade helped Oliver on the island Oliver and his trust and belief in Slade helped Slade find himself again.
I wished you could, too.
For me the magic started wearing off in S4, and it didn't return in season five, although it was undoubtedly a lot more watchable than the season four trainwreck. It just feels as though the show's DNA has changed so much, and that characters and relationships that I don't care very much about have taken center stage, while the other characters don't interest me much either. I mean, if Curtis would suddenly disappear, I wouldn't miss him one bit, and as for Dinah and Black Siren, they mostly feel like bit players. And it's not because they're not given screen time or (some) plot importance, but because they're not allowed to have any deeper connection with the protagonist.
Again, this may be verging into conspiracy theory territory, but there is a grain of truth in this IMHO. The writers simply don't seem to care that much about characters whose names aren't Oliver, Felicity or Diggle. Dinah's incredibly sloppy, forced and clumsy introduction, as well as her continued marginalization during season five, shows this.
Dinah's character was probably brought in as damage control after the outrage after Laurel was killed (or because of pressure from DC higher ups). However, the idea that taking an unrelated character and slapping a BC identity/characteristics on her would appease the Laurel fans is just naive. It's as if the writers believe that it doesn't matter who wears the BC mantle, as long as she is in the story!
Also, after Dinah was introduced the writers didn't seem very interested in doing much to build up her character or make us connect to her, which begs the question why they even bothered introducing her. The same could be said about Black Siren....Guggenheim has sure done his best to make her irredeemable,
despite the fact that the idea/hope of a redemption is what keeps most Laurel 1 fans watching, and despite the fact that moral ambiguity would make her a more interesting character. Right now she's just a one-dimensional villainesse whose motivations remain unknown/muddled and who is embroiled in some contrived rivalry with Dinah Drake.Comment
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I wondered why he killed all those goons and suddenly stopped and took off his mask. Did he know that his old buddy was part of it and would stop the others from killing him? Did he kill them all just to show off so he could offer his deal to join them?
I thought Oliver and Slade in that prison really revealing about their relationship now. Oliver seemed to want to prevent Slade going violent again at all costs. Not that it worked. But Slade clearly reacts to Oliver's signs.Comment
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The Slade/Deathstroke scenes were the best. If any viewers had issues with how Thea (too) easily schooled Slade in S3, this eps' final ten minutes did some part in restoring his canonical awesomeness. There is a reason he's called the Terminator, and all the blood he spilled is testament to it.
The Dinah subplot was the weaker of the two and the Vigilante reveal was sadly more stage setting for the usual CW secrets and lies angst fest. An unintentionally funny moment was when the cop in the TV studio said they locked it all down. Please, you're SCPD -- you couldn't lock down a bathroom stall, let alone a TV studio.
The FBI agent is growing on me. She is the b.s. caller the city, Team Arrow and this universe deserves. Felicity was out of her depth with her, and I agree that another 5-10 minutes and Watson would have grilled whatever truth she wanted out of her.
Compared to last episode, Felicity's role was miniscule in this ep. She was barely in it, like Rene and Curtis.
Agent Watson wasn't taking crap from any of them, I would argue she is well on her way to knocking down the main roster a peg. In terms of letting the air out of the team's inflated opinion of themselves, she's needling away at them. She is 'expecting' secrets and lies, and when this is the tune the team likes to play too often -- they should all be concerned.
Diggle might have fared better, but his inquisition was sadly off-screen. There must be endless CCTV footage of early seasons maskless Diggle running around with the Hood/Arrow or keeping the Arrow van's engine running. His "secret" identity is low hanging fruit -- every other SC gas station attendant or 7-Eleven overnight clerk probably knows GA's mysterious van driver/Spartan looks eerily like Oliver's bodyguard John Diggle. And Watson all but figured out Dinah is Black Siren.
Having said this, I feel the FBI plot is a minor one. It may only have enough steam til the winter finale at the latest.
Deathstroke was rightly front and centre here and he was well worth the price of admission. Better than the past few eps.Comment
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I though she pretty much told Dinah she knows it but can't - yet - prove it.
About details: I thought it a nice touch that he seems to name his missions. Is this from the comics? I don't know how things are handled in reality but naming missions likely makes it better to work with and later to debrief and file. Oliver clearly can still learn a lot from Slade.Comment
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