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Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Deathstroke Returns?"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by evaba
    I'm thinking of stuff like Oliver hanging up his bow to become a civilian and exploring family life (which was what he did with Felicity between S3 and S4) while someone else who is pretending to be Green Arrow fights crime in Star City (a throwback to Roy impersonating GA and Diggle/Speedy/BC fighting crime without Oliver). We also have Quentin's whole circus of daughters dying and being brought back to life as well as his on-and-off alcohol abuse, Willa being absent for a major part of the season and a resurrection of the Olicity saga which gives you the impression that their S4 clashes AND Billy's death never happened.
    I agree. The writing is beyond repetitive at this point. You can add the Vigilante storyline to the list of repetitive plotlines too, by the way. He's just another former loved one who came back from the dead all screwed up - just like Sara (twice), Thea, Andy and Slade before him. Even the Black Siren storyline is a variation of the overused resurrection plot point. Also, am I the only one who has noticed that the writers can't be bothered to write character-specific reactions to events anymore? The scene where Dinah was letting out her frustration on the bamboo dummy was a great example of this because we have seen that exact moment with Sara and Oliver before. The lying and secret-keeping falls in the same vein, too. Is there any character left on the show who hasn't kept a secret from the rest of Team Arrow for no reason at all? We've seen Oliver do it several times. Laurel has done it. Felicity has done it. Quentin has done it. Diggle is currently doing it and now it's Dinah's turn. It's ridiculous.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by shadow08
      I agree. The writing is beyond repetitive at this point. You can add the Vigilante storyline to the list of repetitive plotlines too, by the way. He's just another former loved one who came back from the dead all screwed up - just like Sara (twice), Thea, Andy and Slade before him. Even the Black Siren storyline is a variation of the overused resurrection plot point. Also, am I the only one who has noticed that the writers can't be bothered to write character-specific reactions to events anymore? The scene where Dinah was letting out her frustration on the bamboo dummy was a great example of this because we have seen that exact moment with Sara and Oliver before. The lying and secret-keeping falls in the same vein, too. Is there any character left on the show who hasn't kept a secret from the rest of Team Arrow for no reason at all? We've seen Oliver do it several times. Laurel has done it. Felicity has done it. Quentin has done it. Diggle is currently doing it and now it's Dinah's turn. It's ridiculous.
      Good points! I could add Felicity's strange habit of getting involved with rebound boyfriends (Ray, Billy) every time things go sour between her and Oliver. When the writers want her to hook up with Oliver again, these boyfriends are conveniently dispensed with and hardly remembered/referred to by the woman who obviously cared enough for them to get into a serious sexual relationship with them in the first place. Also, in earlier seasons the writers recycled several Lauriver scenes and gave them to Oliver and Felicity, in their ongoing attempt to retcon the season one Laurel/Oliver romance out of existence because it doesn't fit with their current "Felicity is the great love of Oliver's life and he has never loved anyone else the way he loves the Chosen One" narrative.

      And honestly, how many times have we seen Oliver struggle with the kill-no kill dilemma or the civilian life versus vigilante life dilemma (in S3 he drove off into the sunset with the Love of his Life in order to pursue a blissful suburban existence, and in S5 he wants to devote his life to his son)? Heck, even in season one he finally decided to declare his love to Laurel because he thought that his mission was over.

      I understand that some themes get rehashed in every long-running series, but the "Arrow" writers are so afraid to write their characters in a manner that might alienate the fandom (and especially the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fans which they for some reason believe represent the audience at large) that there are no stakes and little hope for interesting changes left. They blew up a whole island in a supposedly epic cliffhanger, but the only one who died was a secondary character who few people cared enough about to mourn her death. To my mind the "Arrow" writers have become so caught up in a rut of predictable plot developments and shipper fanservice that I personally believe that the ratings will keep on declining in season six. It doesn't matter if Oliciters manage to trend every week, or if they keep on promoting their girl/ship/Original Team all over social media.....average viewers demand more than a certain percentage of screen time/story importance alloted to a particular character/relationship in order to keep watching, especially with so many new well-written and well-produced series in the same genre.
      Last edited by evaba; 11-13-2017, 02:41 AM.

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      • #18
        I'll be honest: I gave this episode a 5, and that's only because the Deathstroke scenes were damn good.

        Oh, great, Vigilante's Dinah's ex-boyfriend and undercover partner, and he has Wolverine-like healing. Lovely.

        Dinah's apparently having issues with whether she wants to remain a vigilante with the way she's reacting to the legislation and the comments by that rookie cop. Wow, she's that easily swayed?

        Only reason Felicity managed to not give away everything was because she and Watson had minimal contact in this episode. If she'd been faced with an elongated convo.... yeah, she'd have let something slip and be in a jail cell.

        Slade drugging Oliver and then going on a full Deathstroke rampage was awesome. Sadly, had to give Deathstroke a strike for his compliment to Felicity, even if he used it as an insult aimed at Oliver, because I am so tired of the villains praising Felicity.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KSiteTV
          So I guess I have to actually be online to create threads because no one else wants to or cares?
          I like to discuss on KSite and exchange views on Arrow forum, but sadly, I have certain tolerance level for organic writing [tm]. Out of what I've heard they even managed to sucessfully eliminate the archery from the show called "Arrow" (not to mention that currently Ollie is not GA). It seems that OTA/Olicity/Felicity's praise again became the most important aspect of the show, and this is not the show I want to watch and dedicate my time for. Not to mention that seeing Quentin that mistakes Black Siren with Laurel would be too painful (btw. if Black Siren is indeed only two dimensional character it's a damn waste; I see more interesting possibiliteis for her). And Wild Dog's abs are not enough to bait me back.

          Originally posted by evaba
          Considering that Guggenheim and his writers have been catering to the Felicity/Olicity/OTA fans since season three, I can't pity them for the shoddy ratings and the lack of fandom interest. I'll happily let the Oliciters swoon over their Queen's IMHO pointless storylines and lackluster dramatic acting, the trite/saccharine Olicity "feels" and the contrived/retconned #OTA "dynamics" (and the general sub-par plotting/writing), while I enjoy series like "The Punisher", whose quality of writing, acting and general execution probably will be leagues above the current "Arrow" fanservice mess.

          It's not accidental that most polls (at least those that haven't been brigaded by Olicity fans) will cite seasons one and two as the best "Arrow" seasons, much thanks to the presence of such fine actors as Susanna Thompson, Colin Salmon, Colin Donnell, Paul Blackthorne et al and a kind of writing that made "Arrow" an instant success in the comic book adaptation/action genre. Right now it's mostly a rehashing of the same ole same storylines and plot points, and with so many other well-produced and well-acted superhero shows around, I can understand that Guggenheim and company rely on the shippers to keep the show alive. That is probably why they had Slade praise Felicity (and Oliver agree with him!) in this ep, while the non-shipper fans cringed and shook their heads at the silliness and the cheapness of it all.
          I'm also looking forward to "Punisher". He is one of my favorite antiheroes, thanks to Garth Ennis's comics, illustrated by Steve Dillon (RIP). Recently I've started to watch "Mindhunters" - it's interesting show as well, focused on tropes that interest me, like psychology and how the crimnal's mind works (and it seems that the show has its own Doctor Pressnall ) - she is a recurring character, so she will play some role I guess).

          Sorry for the offtop.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by evaba
            I'll probably be posting on the Ksite Punisher forum, and I'm sure that I'll be less grumpy and negative! I just saw the trailer, and I'm SYKED (as the kiddos like to say!). Bernthal is a brilliant actor, and the action scenes are breath-taking. I also hope that the whole ruthless avenger/vigilante theme and the issue of whether anyone has the right to kill/maim in order to bring justice will be dealt with during the course of the series. To me this is an important aspect of superhero fiction, especially when your (anti)hero is shown to be extremely violent and lethal. This aspect has been completely glossed over on "Arrow" lately, as the show moves closer to the typical CW shipper oriented story content, with marriage bliss and domestic happiness for the titular hero..... whose dark background as a serial killer is almost obliterated in order to capitalize on Olicity "feels" and feed into the fantasies of the shipper fandom.
            Here I fear you're forcing me to defend the show. Yes they glossed over the dark beginnings of Arrow but Oliver Queen is a hero in the comics even if his origin began as an antihero. The shift was to be expected. By contrast Frank Castle doesn't want to be a hero, he doesn't want to be a beacon of light, he wants to be the boogieman that strikes fear in the most ruthless of villains.

            I posted a more detailed comparison between (super)heroes and antiheroes in the Marvel Punisher thread here.
            Last edited by DoubleDevil; 11-13-2017, 12:38 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by DoubleDevil
              Here I fear you're forcing me to defend the show. Yes they glossed over the dark beginnings of Arrow but Oliver Queen is a hero in the comics even if his origin began as an antihero. The shift was to be expected. By contrast Frank Castle doesn't want to be a hero, he doesn't want to be a beacon of light, he wants to be the boogieman that strikes fear in the most ruthless of villains.

              I posted a more detailed comparison between (super)heroes and antiheroes in the Marvel Punisher thread here.
              You are right about the difference between the comic book Green Arrow and The Punisher. However, to my mind there is a disjunction between the initially "dark" and vengeful "Arrow" version of Oliver, whose kill count are up to at least sixty people by now, and the supposedly harmonious current Daddy figure who is about to celebrate a wedding with a female character who has more or less consistently been portrayed as an innocent beacon of light and whose quirks and quips make her a decidedly more "light" (or even "lightweight") character than most other women in Oliver's life (Moira, Sara, Laurel).

              I guess I find it a bit hard to stomach that a former serial killer (who only in the past season was seen literally skinning a man and who (albeit under torture) admitted that he gets a twisted pleasure from killing) is now morphing into your typical Barbara Cartland hero. I know it might sound a bit snobbish, but that is what the whole Olicity love saga represents to me: a shallow, somewhat "fluffy" and immature romance novel relationship, which is basically a confection made out of fandom demands and the usual CW roma tropes. To me "Arrow" Oliver's violent/lethal mindset and methods can't just be conjured away so that his character can be made to fit into the Olicity narrative of the perfect union of souls, Olicity babies, domestic happiness etc. etc. I have less problems with Barry being engaged in a low-key domestic happiness scenario with Iris, because he was never portrayed as an avenger/killer with PTSD in the first place.

              However, I do agree that the CW Berlanti shows would never present an antihero as dark and uncompromising as The Punisher, and I think the main reason is that such a character doesn't fit into their unrealistic and tropey portrayal of male-female relationships.....because even those "heroes" who are not "good" (like the Salvatore brothers) somehow have their bad deeds glossed over so that the writers can give their specific demographic their fill of typical CW-style romance writing.
              Last edited by evaba; 11-13-2017, 02:30 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by evaba
                You are right about the difference between the comic book Green Arrow and The Punisher. However, to my mind there is a disjunction between the initially "dark" and vengeful "Arrow" version of Oliver, whose kill count are up to at least sixty people by now, and the supposedly harmonious current Daddy figure who is about to celebrate a wedding with a female character who has more or less consistently been portrayed as an innocent beacon of light and whose quirks and quips make her a decidedly more "light" (or even "lightweight") character than most other women in Oliver's life (Moira, Sara, Laurel).

                I guess I find it a bit hard to stomach that a former serial killer (who only in the past season was seen literally skinning a man and who (albeit under torture) admitted that he gets a twisted pleasure from killing) is now morphing into your typical Barbara Cartland hero. I know it might sound a bit snobbish, but that is what the whole Olicity love saga represents to me: a shallow, somewhat "fluffy" and immature romance novel relationship, which is basically a confection made out of fandom demands and the usual CW roma tropes. To me "Arrow" Oliver's violent/lethal mindset and methods can't just be conjured away so that his character can be made to fit into the Olicity narrative of the perfect union of souls, Olicity babies, domestic happiness etc. etc. I have less problems with Barry being engaged in a low-key domestic happiness scenario with Iris, because he was never portrayed as an avenger/killer with PTSD in the first place.

                However, I do agree that the CW Berlanti shows would never present an antihero as dark and uncompromising as The Punisher, and I think the main reason is that such a character doesn't fit into their unrealistic and tropey portrayal of male-female relationships.....because even those "heroes" who are not "good" (like the Salvatore brothers) somehow have their bad deeds glossed over so that the writers can give their specific demographic their fill of typical CW-style romance writing.
                Agreed on the childish romance and the relatively fast change from antihero to hero. Yes there is a major push for domestic bliss and as far as I'm concerned Felicity destroys everything she's involved with. She's a kiss of death like King Midas' golden touch.

                I have no idea what the CW actually stands for (and I don't really care) but as far as I'm concerned it stands for Childish Women in my book.

                Comment


                • #23
                  The only thing that saved this episode from being gutter thrash was Manu Bennett's presence as Slade Wilson/Deathstroke. It's always a treat to see him on screen in that role...he's great.


                  The Vigilante reveal was so disappointing and underwhelming.....I was hoping it was a much bigger reveal than who it was.

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                  • #24
                    It's all just so... meh.

                    I do like the FBI woman though.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by evaba
                      I'm thinking of stuff like Oliver hanging up his bow to become a civilian and exploring family life (which was what he did with Felicity between S3 and S4) while someone else who is pretending to be Green Arrow fights crime in Star City (a throwback to Roy impersonating GA and Diggle/Speedy/BC fighting crime without Oliver).
                      Thank you for your explanations.

                      I see your point but frankly, I do like Oliver exploring family life as it develops his character in the right direction. After all, his fear of this kind of life made him flee onto his fathers ship with Sara. So this part of his story shows how he confronts his inner demons. Also, somebody else impersonation GA should be the rule rather than the exception - I always found it strange that Oliver was so rarely ill (like having a cold for a week) that he never really needed it before.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      We also have Quentin's whole circus of daughters dying and being brought back to life as well as his on-and-off alcohol abuse,
                      I agree, they should write his story in a way that he finally can overcome that.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      Willa being absent for a major part of the season
                      I miss Thea, too, and I do think there is much room for her development left they should explore. Is it possible that there are not-writer reasons Willa is not as often at Arrow?

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      and a resurrection of the Olicity saga which gives you the impression that their S4 clashes AND Billy's death never happened.
                      Inside the story I don't see any reason for non-Olicity. So I would not count this as repetitive.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      I guess it just feels that the writers are a bit on auto-pilot, to the point where you can almost guess certain story developments and plot points because you've seen them before.
                      This has nothing to do with the story or writers, it just means you are getting older.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      As for me personally, those elements which could have made S6 interesting, such as Dinah's and Black Siren's relationship with Oliver are neglected,
                      So far I am not really interested in either of these relationships so I am okay with how it is. I think Dinah just got interesting due to her relationship with Dig and I hope for some kind of second chance story for Vince. I really am not interested in another love triangle or even love cuboid with Oliver at the centre.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      in what seems to an attempt to safeguard the Oliver/Felicity romance at all costs and highlight OTA as Oliver's only important relationship besides Thea (at least if you're a tad suspicious of Guggenheim and his writers and their Olicity/OTA love!).
                      This is possible but personally I try to not mix realms. A story should be itself - and who are the authors to know what is going on in it anyway. My daughter constantly complains that the characters in her stories don't do what she planned. Instead, once she starts writing things develop differently. Seriously, who cares what Guggenheim and his writers love or what other fans see in a story or the characters. Pick and choose, that is my mantra. I only read those opinions I find interesting and I don't go anywhere all those Olicity loving fans gather.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      Also, I wouldn't have complained about Slade's Felicity praise if this character shilling hadn't been part of a recurring pattern of similar in fiction fawning over Felicity over the course of several seasons. In fact, on another forum there were threads even BEFORE the Slade episode, where people predicted that he would say something (positive) about Felicity, because everyone and his mother (even the Big Bads!) have to single out Felicity Smoak and praise her superior intelligence, "empathy" and general "specialness" in relation to every other woman in the Arrowverse.
                      As I said I don't go there. And I think it odd that we finally got a really good Deathstroke story and instead of discussing this everybody is just interested in Felicity - either for good or bad. Why don't we discuss how both Oliver and Slade seem to dance around each other - still unsure of the other's reactions? How the music nicely showed whenever Slade went closer to his Deathstoke modus. Or that they made this nice nod to Slade Wilson's original alter ego in the comics: The Terminator (before the movie). I mean, the episode is called "Deathstroke returns" and everybody just talks about Felicity, Felicity and Olicity and Felicity again. I cannot understand this.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      I personally think this exaggerated shilling is detrimental to Felicity's character portrayal, because it really highlights her role as a Mary Sue/writers' pet. If Slade's mention of her brilliance had been an isolated instance it wouldn't have been noticed the way it was, but now it just fuels the dislike for her character, at least in some corners of the fandom.
                      I guess one had to be there. I really don't see her character highlighted as much as you and other's (especially the Felicity fans) do. It seems to me that they only really watch the scenes with her and when she is mentioned and not the others. And they drew everybody else there.

                      If you recall Slade once expressed his surprise and general dissatisfaction with Oliver that he chose a "weak woman". I think, considering how things are currently between Oliver and Slade, trying to make up for that is in-character for Slade. But I have no doubts that he would not chose Felicity for Oliver if he had a saying it in - he has not changed that much.

                      So I think all those Felicity fans and Felicity haters who now think this means Slade is a Felicity fan too are wrong. He is just trying to get Oliver to have a good opinion of him again. Because just as Slade helped Oliver on the island Oliver and his trust and belief in Slade helped Slade find himself again.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      I'm glad you still enjoy "Arrow".
                      I wished you could, too.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      For me the magic started wearing off in S4, and it didn't return in season five, although it was undoubtedly a lot more watchable than the season four trainwreck. It just feels as though the show's DNA has changed so much, and that characters and relationships that I don't care very much about have taken center stage, while the other characters don't interest me much either. I mean, if Curtis would suddenly disappear, I wouldn't miss him one bit, and as for Dinah and Black Siren, they mostly feel like bit players. And it's not because they're not given screen time or (some) plot importance, but because they're not allowed to have any deeper connection with the protagonist.
                      I would not be so sure about that. Take for example Thea. It was her relationship with Roy that started to make her interesting, IMO, not with Oliver. In fact, I didn't like her much around Oliver for a long time but it were her scenes with Roy and Laurel that I started to love.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      Again, this may be verging into conspiracy theory territory, but there is a grain of truth in this IMHO. The writers simply don't seem to care that much about characters whose names aren't Oliver, Felicity or Diggle. Dinah's incredibly sloppy, forced and clumsy introduction, as well as her continued marginalization during season five, shows this.
                      Or they simply had just so much screen time.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      Dinah's character was probably brought in as damage control after the outrage after Laurel was killed (or because of pressure from DC higher ups). However, the idea that taking an unrelated character and slapping a BC identity/characteristics on her would appease the Laurel fans is just naive. It's as if the writers believe that it doesn't matter who wears the BC mantle, as long as she is in the story!
                      As I said, I don't really care what they think. Killing Laurel was one of the worst things in Arrow, I agree, especially as she just seemed to be more her season one self again. But I started to like Dinah in season six now and I look forward to her story.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      Also, after Dinah was introduced the writers didn't seem very interested in doing much to build up her character or make us connect to her, which begs the question why they even bothered introducing her. The same could be said about Black Siren....Guggenheim has sure done his best to make her irredeemable,
                      I don't see why.

                      Originally posted by evaba
                      despite the fact that the idea/hope of a redemption is what keeps most Laurel 1 fans watching, and despite the fact that moral ambiguity would make her a more interesting character. Right now she's just a one-dimensional villainesse whose motivations remain unknown/muddled and who is embroiled in some contrived rivalry with Dinah Drake.
                      I agree, but that does not mean it cannot change.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JDBentz
                        Slade drugging Oliver and then going on a full Deathstroke rampage was awesome.
                        Finally! Someone talking about Deathstroke in the "Deathstroke returns" episode.

                        I wondered why he killed all those goons and suddenly stopped and took off his mask. Did he know that his old buddy was part of it and would stop the others from killing him? Did he kill them all just to show off so he could offer his deal to join them?

                        I thought Oliver and Slade in that prison really revealing about their relationship now. Oliver seemed to want to prevent Slade going violent again at all costs. Not that it worked. But Slade clearly reacts to Oliver's signs.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Amarice
                          It seems that OTA/Olicity/Felicity's praise again became the most important aspect of the show,
                          Not for me. I wouldn't even have CONSIDERED it a real praise if not for all the other Arrow watchers seeming to do so.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            The Slade/Deathstroke scenes were the best. If any viewers had issues with how Thea (too) easily schooled Slade in S3, this eps' final ten minutes did some part in restoring his canonical awesomeness. There is a reason he's called the Terminator, and all the blood he spilled is testament to it.

                            The Dinah subplot was the weaker of the two and the Vigilante reveal was sadly more stage setting for the usual CW secrets and lies angst fest. An unintentionally funny moment was when the cop in the TV studio said they locked it all down. Please, you're SCPD -- you couldn't lock down a bathroom stall, let alone a TV studio.

                            The FBI agent is growing on me. She is the b.s. caller the city, Team Arrow and this universe deserves. Felicity was out of her depth with her, and I agree that another 5-10 minutes and Watson would have grilled whatever truth she wanted out of her.

                            Compared to last episode, Felicity's role was miniscule in this ep. She was barely in it, like Rene and Curtis.

                            Agent Watson wasn't taking crap from any of them, I would argue she is well on her way to knocking down the main roster a peg. In terms of letting the air out of the team's inflated opinion of themselves, she's needling away at them. She is 'expecting' secrets and lies, and when this is the tune the team likes to play too often -- they should all be concerned.

                            Diggle might have fared better, but his inquisition was sadly off-screen. There must be endless CCTV footage of early seasons maskless Diggle running around with the Hood/Arrow or keeping the Arrow van's engine running. His "secret" identity is low hanging fruit -- every other SC gas station attendant or 7-Eleven overnight clerk probably knows GA's mysterious van driver/Spartan looks eerily like Oliver's bodyguard John Diggle. And Watson all but figured out Dinah is Black Siren.

                            Having said this, I feel the FBI plot is a minor one. It may only have enough steam til the winter finale at the latest.

                            Deathstroke was rightly front and centre here and he was well worth the price of admission. Better than the past few eps.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by President_Luthor
                              Diggle might have fared better, but his inquisition was sadly off-screen.
                              I wonder if he really was there. He was a little bit too nonchalant about it for my taste.

                              Originally posted by President_Luthor
                              And Watson all but figured out Dinah is Black Siren.
                              I though she pretty much told Dinah she knows it but can't - yet - prove it.

                              Originally posted by President_Luthor
                              Deathstroke was rightly front and centre here and he was well worth the price of admission. Better than the past few eps.
                              Yes!

                              About details: I thought it a nice touch that he seems to name his missions. Is this from the comics? I don't know how things are handled in reality but naming missions likely makes it better to work with and later to debrief and file. Oliver clearly can still learn a lot from Slade.

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