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  1. #1
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    2017 GreenArrowTV Awards: The Results Are In!

    How do you like the results?

    http://www.greenarrowtv.com/2017-gre...esults-are-in/

    I like the page, but IMO these results show clearly only two things - HUGE polarization in the fandom, and that the page is overrun with shippers. (Now I'm worried about the forum).

    "Underneath" was voted to be BOTH best episode and the worst one. LOL! Now I wonder how exactly "Underneath" contributed to Oliver's hero way? Did it show anything new? What it contrubited to the theme of the season that was legacy? I'm not even commenting on the fact that flashback sex scene was voted as the biggest surprise. Was it really more significant than Bratva and the island flashback?

    "Invasion", "Checkmate", "What We Leave Behind", "Lian Yu" and "Kapushion" - apparently all of this unimportant because #OTA, #Olicity #NoLoveFernNoArrow.

    Srsly, to all guys I've been exchanging posts for three years now.To paraphase what Oliver said to Thea in one of these unimportant episodes ("Invasion"). Don't leave this forum and go together with me into season 6, because... I can't do it alone.
    Last edited by Amarice; 09-18-2017 at 03:26 PM.

  2. #2
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    It was even more polarized last year when Felicity won favorite and least favorite character at the same time. I guess Susan's presence and Laurel fans tuning off affected the latter category's outcome this year.

    Anyway, I disagree with most of these results, but I am not a Felicity/Olicity fan anyway. I don't watch the show exclusively for a secondary character or because I expect my shipper demands to be satisfied.

  3. #3
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    It was even more polarized last year when Felicity won favorite and least favorite character at the same time. I guess Susan's presence and Laurel fans tuning off affected the latter category's outcome this year.

    Anyway, I disagree with most of these results, but I am not a Felicity/Olicity fan anyway. I don't watch the show exclusively for a secondary character or because I expect my shipper demands to be satisfied.
    HOW DARE! Felicity is the main character, isn't she?

    Anyway, I've created my own poll to check what happens with the results:

    What is the best archery scene in "Arrow"? http://www.strawpoll.me/13960318

    I've put some options as a joke, obviously.

    Edit: corrected the link to the poll.
    Last edited by Amarice; 09-19-2017 at 02:30 AM.

  4. #4
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    HOW DARE! Felicity is the main character, isn't she?

    Anyway, I've created my own poll to check what happens with the results:

    What is the best archery scene in "Arrow"? http://www.strawpoll.me/13960318

    I've put some options as a joke, obviously.

    Edit: corrected the link to the poll.
    Fair enough. Used to be a secondary character, to be precise.

  5. #5
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, shipper and/or character biases aplenty. It's funny when an ep. gets high marks in both best and worst.

    How about 'any episode that dedicated significant time to Curtis' marital woes with Paul' as worst ep.?

    I didn't despise Underneath to the point I thought it was the worst, but it sure wasn't the best episode. Invasion I felt was one of the stronger episodes this season, though it wasn't the best of the season.

    (I know some fans objected to Invasion being Arrow-centric during a crossover arc -- but in hindsight it was the 100th ep -- a landmark none of the other DC series had attained yet. If anything, it would make me question why they would plan a crossover arc during such a milestone in the series, it's not like it was a complete surprise that S5 would have episode 100).

    My personal pick for S6 best would be something like Checkmate.

    Best (male) actor? While SA is the lead and likely did some of his best work to date during S5, I think Josh Segarra takes the cake for this season.

    Best villain, I'm glad to see, rightly went to Chase/Prometheus. There really was no other contender this season.

    Least favourite? Susan may have won first place, but Felicity apparently locked down second place with E2 Laurel/Black Siren getting the bronze. Remember during the Olympics when all the medal winners 1-2-3 would climb the top podium in a show of unity and camaraderie for the cameras? I think that would be a fitting way for them to celebrate it -- esp since Felicity was last season's defending title holder.

    Best action sequence? Yeah, Underneath had a cool stunt ... but that one ep (can't remember which one) where GA and Prometheus were beating the living crap out of each other -- I know, they did it a lot in S5 -- has to be a top pick. The two were radiating intensity during it, you could taste the mutual hatred in the air.

    Again I defer to Kovar: "Truth is a matter of perspective."

  6. #6
    The artist formerly known as "KryptonSite" KSiteTV's Avatar
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    Ugh, Curtis and Paul had about as much chemistry as... well... Felicity and Billy Malone.

    I'm shaking my head that I tried to be as unbiased and fair as possible in my writing yet they STILL found stuff to pick at.

  7. #7
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Oh yeah, shipper and/or character biases aplenty. It's funny when an ep. gets high marks in both best and worst.

    How about 'any episode that dedicated significant time to Curtis' marital woes with Paul' as worst ep.?

    I didn't despise Underneath to the point I thought it was the worst, but it sure wasn't the best episode. Invasion I felt was one of the stronger episodes this season, though it wasn't the best of the season.

    (I know some fans objected to Invasion being Arrow-centric during a crossover arc -- but in hindsight it was the 100th ep -- a landmark none of the other DC series had attained yet. If anything, it would make me question why they would plan a crossover arc during such a milestone in the series, it's not like it was a complete surprise that S5 would have episode 100).

    My personal pick for S6 best would be something like Checkmate.

    Best (male) actor? While SA is the lead and likely did some of his best work to date during S5, I think Josh Segarra takes the cake for this season.

    Best villain, I'm glad to see, rightly went to Chase/Prometheus. There really was no other contender this season.

    Least favourite? Susan may have won first place, but Felicity apparently locked down second place with E2 Laurel/Black Siren getting the bronze. Remember during the Olympics when all the medal winners 1-2-3 would climb the top podium in a show of unity and camaraderie for the cameras? I think that would be a fitting way for them to celebrate it -- esp since Felicity was last season's defending title holder.

    Best action sequence? Yeah, Underneath had a cool stunt ... but that one ep (can't remember which one) where GA and Prometheus were beating the living crap out of each other -- I know, they did it a lot in S5 -- has to be a top pick. The two were radiating intensity during it, you could taste the mutual hatred in the air.

    Again I defer to Kovar: "Truth is a matter of perspective."
    I consider Helix episode the worst one, Underneath to be rather mediocre. I think I voted for Invasion as the best episode, but come to think of that Checkmate was the most intense/consistent/contributed to the story. I hadn't really like the "big reveal" in Kapushion and the idea with Oliver-monster is actually another trope I'm not too fond of.

    Wild Dog was my choice as the best guest star. But applying the same logic as Olicity shipper I should vote for "Sin-Eater" in every category, because Cupid was there, and I like her.

    Quote Originally Posted by KSiteTV View Post
    Ugh, Curtis and Paul had about as much chemistry as... well... Felicity and Billy Malone.

    I'm shaking my head that I tried to be as unbiased and fair as possible in my writing yet they STILL found stuff to pick at.
    Give one finger, they will take the whole hand. Some folks don't see past the tip of the arrowhead. But why I'm even making a comparsion that is archery related? I've seen many bizzare comment in the comment section of GreenArrowTV complaining that the show focuses on Oliver, improving stunts and boring fights/action. SRSLY? An action superhero show about comic book hero taking care about improving in that aspect?

    I've got one question. (And it's half-serious, no worries! ) Why did you put Cupid in the worst character section, and not in the favorite minors? I don't understand why she was selected out (while Liza Warner and China White didn't), when she had nothing constructive to do in 5x14. She observed that the arrows are expensive, though, and it's totally true!

  8. #8
    The artist formerly known as "KryptonSite" KSiteTV's Avatar
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    Honestly, it was because of the negative reaction Cupid had in the earlier seasons... not from all, from many... you're the first I ever met who was into her (which is great, don't get me wrong!) I do think in those categories people could write in folks if they weren't listed.

  9. #9
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSiteTV View Post
    Ugh, Curtis and Paul had about as much chemistry as... well... Felicity and Billy Malone.

    I'm shaking my head that I tried to be as unbiased and fair as possible in my writing yet they STILL found stuff to pick at.
    For me it goes like this. Not every person who voted for Susan is an Olicity fan, but almost every Olicity fan who voted in that category voted for Susan. Throughout season 5 that fanbase made their feelings towards towards Susan crystal clear. And given some of the results in the other categories, it's apparent that Susan got the most votes because the majority of the voters were Felicity/Olicity fans. So yes, in a way, Susan paid the price for standing in the way of Oliver and Felicity.

    I found your commentary of the result fairly objective and accurate. Not sure why fans (shippers or not) would suddenly act like their voting isn't influenced by personal bias. It's the name of the game in awards like this.

  10. #10
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Once the polls open up to the audience, it's really at the mercy of those voting. No doubt there are also fans who've never made a peep on the forums during the season ... but make a point of voting in season's end polls like these.

    We all bring our own biases into such things, some fans try to be more objective or neutral about it when voting while other fans aren't going to be objective at all. Chase/Prometheus was largely seen as the best villain of the season (and arguably even best in series), many fans would agree and this was reflected in the poll. Once we delve into favourite or least favourite, best or worst, it's more of a horse race with an array of differing opinions.

    Actually I found the listing of past seasons' category winners very intriguing too. You can see some voting patterns evolve, a track record, so to speak. Laurel esp. and Felicity to some degree came out on the losing end in some least or worst categories in past seasons that were probably more a reflection of that season's fickle fandom whims and biases than what the characters actually did story-wise in a given season.

    With Susan, though I didn't particularly like how her arc played out (it seemed like they had an idea aka revealing GA's identity/political blowback etc. and they either ran out of steam with it/just gave up, etc.), I can't really say she's my least favourite of the season. She didn't have enough story to engage me enough to form a strong opinion or her character either way.

    But then, the "will they-won't they" carousel that is Olicity hasn't been a focus or interest for me, so Susan being a perceived obstacle in their trajectory meant little to me. If I didn't adore her in S5, it's largely because she and her arc just weren't that interesting. For fans where the Olicity ship is paramount or even the sole motivation for continuing to follow Arrow, Susan would be seen as an irritant/speed bump to them.

    It's similar to me with how Underneath is perceived. Did the ep. have "heart", team bonding, etc.? Sure it did. Could the season have been less plot-driven and more engaging re: good character-driven plots (Curtis/Paul being one that was not)? Perhaps.

    Underneath reflected this for fans who want this on Arrow -- and I'm briefly wearing devil's advocate hat here -- and it marked a turning point for them signalling that the show was still interested in team dynamics in general and (ugh) Olicity as their alpha couple. For these fans, the ep signalling these themes is enough to make it their "best ep." because they saw so little of these elements in S5 ... while the show was engrossed in Chase methodically messing with Oliver's head and searing his soul bit by bit.

    (I feel Curtis mostly picked up S5's melodrama torch that Thea or Felicity would have held in past seasons, with Wild Dog's late-inning custody woes picking up the slack when Paul took that airport-friendly luggage to Offscreenville ... but I guess Curtis/Paul don't count.)

    As an ep., objectively, it was just alright. Taking off the devil's advocate hat ... I didn't hate it, but I didn't think it was spectacular either.

    I think the Kovar mantra about truth being a matter of perspective is apt here, whether you're a shipper or a comics fan.

    We are all going to find the "truths" we want to see out of the poll results. The truths I find may not align with the truths others find, and that's okay.

  11. #11
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    With Susan, though I didn't particularly like how her arc played out (it seemed like they had an idea aka revealing GA's identity/political blowback etc. and they either ran out of steam with it/just gave up, etc.), I can't really say she's my least favourite of the season. She didn't have enough story to engage me enough to form a strong opinion or her character either way.
    I have to rewatch the season at some point, but the issue I remember having with Susan is that they didn't go all the way with her. At first it felt seemed like she had her own agenda and meant Oliver harm, but that was changed to her truly liking Oliver. And just when that relationship is explored, they quickly write her off just so the Olicity shippers wouldn't get too mad. I didn't hate her, personally. I don't hate or dislike any character who isn't propped at Oliver's expense. Which probably gives away who got my vote in this category for the 3rd year running...

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Actually I found the listing of past seasons' category winners very intriguing too. You can see some voting patterns evolve, a track record, so to speak. Laurel esp. and Felicity to some degree came out on the losing end in some least or worst categories in past seasons that were probably more a reflection of that season's fickle fandom whims and biases than what the characters actually did story-wise in a given season.
    A prime example of this is the Season 3 awards, where Laurel was voted the least favorite character and Canaries was voted the worst episode. I consider both results incredibly unfair because Laurel (with some speed bumps) had the best character development in season 3, whereas I can name at least 5 episodes from that season that were worse than Canaries. Meanwhile, The Fallen was voted best episode of the season, Felicity was voted best character and Olicity was voted best relationship by 78%. So it's pretty obvious that shipper bias played a key part in the results for Laurel and Canaries.

  12. #12
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSiteTV View Post
    Honestly, it was because of the negative reaction Cupid had in the earlier seasons... not from all, from many... you're the first I ever met who was into her (which is great, don't get me wrong!) I do think in those categories people could write in folks if they weren't listed.
    If you'll permit a professional observation Carrie seem to be tied to Olicity by different parties, as if she was some herold of The Most Epic Love Story of Last Milennium. I would say that the only Cupid-centric episode was 3x07, hence and blaming her for the failure 4x16 was doesn't have too much sense (what's more she saved us from Oliver's love declaration lasting for 5 minutes - this way it was merely 3). So called another Cupid-episode had only 5 minutes with the villlainess. The rest was dedicated to the fascinating fake wedding and Felicity's problem with moving the boxes out of the loft.

    I think I orginally was not too fond of 3x07, but when I rewatched it I just skipped Olicity-content, and it turned out that it's quite decent for me. Cupid is a "monster" Oliver has created. His intentions were good, he saved a woman from death, and it "backfired" on him. I'm still in shock that they've introduced a subplot with the psychiatrist. Of course Cupid was used only as the excuse to introduce some scenes like Table Flip to show Oliver's Distress That He Can't Be With The Love Of His Love (v. mature reaction).

    To tell the truth I wasn't too interested in Cupid until 1,5 year ago or so we started to came up with these crackpairings on the forum, and I've invented Carriver. Since I'm amateur writer I see in Carrie's character a lot of unused potenatial. Of course I try to not confuse headcanons and fanfics with the actual canon.

    Btw. I've put Carrie in my avater to make clear that I'm a female. Besides we share two features. That would hair color and archery, not obsession over hooded vigilantes dressed in green leather XD

  13. #13
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    A prime example of this is the Season 3 awards, where Laurel was voted the least favorite character and Canaries was voted the worst episode. I consider both results incredibly unfair because Laurel (with some speed bumps) had the best character development in season 3, whereas I can name at least 5 episodes from that season that were worse than Canaries. Meanwhile, The Fallen was voted best episode of the season, Felicity was voted best character and Olicity was voted best relationship by 78%. So it's pretty obvious that shipper bias played a key part in the results for Laurel and Canaries.
    S3 and S4 were probably my favourite Laurel/BC seasons. Though not a perfect journey, the ball did get rolling in S3 re: Laurel claiming the BC mantle. By mid-to-late S4: that mantle was undeniably hers, few could question her place as a main roster member, she largely owned it ... and of course that was the time they axed her. (They kind of did the same thing to Roy too in S3).

    Laurel got some unfair heat whenever she made mistakes in S3, not being trained by the LOA etc. Meanwhile that same season, Thea gets the '$99 LOA Malcolm quick summer boot camp' with the free George Foreman grill and retro Merlyn Global Group gym bag thrown in just for signing up --with much of her training done offscreen-- and she gets lionized for how badass she is. When Laurel gets beat up badly in her first run out as Laurel ... sure, she was reckless in diving in without being fully prepared, but plenty of fans tore her apart over her first outing and on practically every mistake she made in her rookie season!

    I'll borrow from Nick Fury in Winter Soldier again: "Stuff like this gives me trust issues." Stuff like that is, let's say, an on-going irritant to me. Yeah, no biases there at all, Arrow fandom.

    P.S. -Great Scott, I'm feelin' salty today.

    Also, all the -in hindsight- unsubstantiated raving about how Sara should, could and would be the best and only BC simply because she looked the part and "kicked butt". That was when comics fans had to step in and serve up the reality check that the BC mantle would have to be earned, it wasn't automatically Sara's by right, nor would she be qualified to "claim" it if it came to that. (Actually, I feel Sara's character on LoT at present is coasting on her Arrow rep and development -- but I digress.)

    Somewhat related: currently, Batman and Black Canary are the shot-callers in the latest comics incarnation of Justice League of America. I guess BC gets the last laugh (Canary Cry? Scream?) after all.

    Celebratory milkshakes for everyone :

    Attachment 16901

  14. #14
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    ^ I'll take this milkshake now.

    It's really "fascinating" to what point people can use double standards. Worship one character for effortlessly reaching some postion/doing something and without acquiring necessary skills and at the same time trash others because "how dare/they didn't deserve that". Of course I'm not saying this about constructive criticism of undeveloped stories. Personally I see no reason to hate characters like Dinah Drake, Billy or Susan - having doubts about how their stories were (un)developed is another set of arrows (matter ).

  15. #15
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    For me it goes like this. Not every person who voted for Susan is an Olicity fan, but almost every Olicity fan who voted in that category voted for Susan. Throughout season 5 that fanbase made their feelings towards towards Susan crystal clear. And given some of the results in the other categories, it's apparent that Susan got the most votes because the majority of the voters were Felicity/Olicity fans. So yes, in a way, Susan paid the price for standing in the way of Oliver and Felicity.

    I found your commentary of the result fairly objective and accurate. Not sure why fans (shippers or not) would suddenly act like their voting isn't influenced by personal bias. It's the name of the game in awards like this.
    I'll preface this by saying that Susan might never have been loved by the Olicity fandom but the reason she was HATED I sincerely don't believe had anything to do with her being Oliver's love interest. No one thought either Susan or Billy was a long term threat. And Billy was wrtitten as a far closer relationship for Felicity than Susan was for Oliver and Billy was met with mostly a meh reaction. He was mocked and dismissed. He wasn't worth hating. But Susan was introduced from the start as a charcter to root against and it had nothing to do with Oliver or Felicity.

    Susan betrayed Thea. And nothing Susan ever did eaned back Thea's trust or friendship. Thea hated Susan and of course I'm going to take my cue from another favorite character on the show. So right out of the gate, Susan was set up by the show as someone for us to root against and that was before we saw she was digging into Oliver's secret.

    So step one, Thea hates her. Step two, Oliver is a risk by her actions. Then the Human Target flirts with her and gets her number to give to Oliver and the vibe there was weird. And then she starts chasing him WHILE digging into him and looking for dirt. She gets his security team to report his movements so she can time her appearences. She's shady as hell.

    And then Oliver starts to date her despite the fact that Thea hates her and Quentin thinks it's a terrible idea and the even Oliver knows she's a reporter that was trying to make her mark on the city by dragging his agenda as Mayor through the mud. She backed off but never stopped and everytime someone tried to point out why this was a bad idea, Oliver dismissed them and it made him look INCREDIBLY stupid. And that's what made the fandom hate her was what she did to Oliver's character.

    The show runners and SA were so hung up on the supposed twist of her not betraying Oliver that they didn't seem to care or consider how dumb he still looked in the meantime. He had no reason to trust her. The audience had no reason to trust her. Even after sleeping with Oliver, she still is meeting with her source and compiling her proof against him. And then yeah, Thea stepped in to take care of her when Oliver wouldn't and even though she with Felicity's help might have gone too far, they had NO REASON to believe that discrediting her wasn't exactly what needed to be done and Oliver burying his head and refusing to do anything about Susan just made him look stupider and stupider.

    And then when he turned on Thea for having his back I hated Susan all the more for coming between them and making Thea question everything in her life and what kind of person she was. Thea only went to extremes because Oliver was acting like such a dolt. It didn't matter that he ended up being right, becuase there was no reason to believe he should have trusted Susan so it comes off as luck not anything Oliver could take credit for.

    Plus Susan didn't help her case when while her rep had been trashed her responce was to complain that now no one would believe her if she published all she knew which made it seem that later when she said she wouldn't tell that is was more out of gratitude that Oliver got her life back than because she never planned on telling.

    And then she got kidnapped and Oliver didn't even realize she was gone for a week, lol and then he's like, well, glady you are ok, I'm dumping you now, bub bye.

    She was never a threat to the ship but she did do immense damage to Oliver in a season where Chase was chipping away at his sense of humanity. I hated to see him act so blatantly dumb when Chase was already doing the 10 steps ahead thing. And I hated how dismissive of Thea he was. Oliver chosing to be with Susan despite all the reasons it made no sense (other than she was there and he didn't have to expend any effort to get her) made him look stupid in a season he really couldn't afford to look stupider.

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