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  1. #1
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    Question What exactly is Oliver's stance on his methods by 5x23's end?

    I know the whole five year journey is Oliver stepping away from being killer and becoming the more no killing version of Green Arrow. So did that happen since Oliver didn't kill Adrian Chase?

    Is Oliver now completely on the no killing wagon for good this time, just being more selective, no killing but still willing to torture people for information or just like in season 4 of no killing or torturing people period.


    What are your guys thoughts?

  2. #2
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    I honestly have no freaking clue. I thought he was on the no kill rule with life and death exceptions (like The Count) as of season two and after killing Ra's and then DD, he modified his rule to mostly no kill, but some people need killing. And that was fine. I could live with that.

    But then at the start of season five he was not just killing in extreme moments like with really evil and unstoppable guys like DD but he was back to killing random thugs that knew too much after he showed how much he really could do. The whole team was dropping bodies without blinking all season long. Then he killed Billy because he was sure the answer to the evil Prometheus, was killing him. But then when he found out that Chase WANTED Oliver to prove he was a killer, Oliver refused to kill him...even though if he had killed him early in Chase's plans, an awful lot of innocent people would have survived.

    But after Chase tortured him and made Oliver question if he was still the same killer that he was in season one, it makes sense that Oliver now make it a completely firm no kill rule. I think the life or death exception would still exist meaning if in the moment it was kill or be killed for Oliver or for one of Oliver's loved ones, he'd take the shot rather than let them die, but I think the idea of solving a bad guy problem by just killing them is now over. I think. Maybe.

    It seems like the no kill rule should stick because now William is watching what he does as well, so he has to set an example he can live with from now on. But on the other hand, Oliver seemed pretty certain at the end of season four that sometimes killing was the answer, to the point where it almost feels like a regression for him to now be back to a black and white, NO KILL. Maybe that will be what he now struggles with. Not the question of to not kill or when to kill, but how he can be effective while killing is off the table.

    Or maybe the kill no kill question is firmly settled and he'll now worry about everything he's willing to do short of killing, lol.

  3. #3
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    As usual, his philosophy will change, depending on the requirements of the script. Oliver's character ceased being developed 3 years ago.

  4. #4
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    The showrunners will continue having Oliver kill simply because they aren't professional enough to recognizing their own short comings. As BkWurm said, we continually see low-level thugs getting killed by not only Oliver but the entire team without any reprecussions or even mention of it. It'll look good on film so they'll leave it without a second thought “Wait... Oliver doesn't kill anymore. We need them to get back up or at least roll around in pain.“
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 07-01-2017 at 07:13 AM.

  5. #5
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I think they'll be content keeping the Arrow kill/no kill dilemma vague and fluid for storytelling reasons, much like Flash and esp. LoT with their casual to indifferent attitude towards time travel and its blowback.

    Oliver killing Darhk in the S4 finale is my arbitrary checkpoint for "killing" being back on the table for Team Arrow -- whether as a last resort, final option, when you're backed into a corner, etc. But there are more than a few examples even before Darhk when he dropped bodies even after he'd allegedly sworn off killing. I'd prefer if they'd locked down under what circumstances it's now considered an option for him.

    I enjoyed S5, but the whole 'Is killing back on the table now?' dilemma is one of the irksome developments out of this season. I saw the S5 premiere again recently and he was icing dudes left and right, and not all of them were kill-or-be-killed situations.

    I think we're looking at the era of a no-killing Oliver Queen/GA in the rearview mirror. Killing is back on the table with him, his team largely accepts it and apparently so does the city. He kills if necessary, but doesn't necessarily kill all the time. When is it ok and when is it not? They're moving goal posts at this point after five seasons.

    It would be much easier to slam him (and the team) on their moral vagueness/relativism on the matter, had the rest of the Flarrowverse -- Barry/Team Flash, SG/Team Kara and Team Sara on LoT -- presented themselves over the years as uncompromising pillars of virtue.

    I don't expect Oliver to ever return to the period when he didn't kill and, considering he dropped a few bodies even during this time, it's a bit of a myth out there that Oliver truly stopped killing cold turkey. In theory he stopped for awhile. In practice? It was more like he went on a no-kill diet and broke it a couple of times before Darhk.

    His TV cousins are all sullied for various reasons and I am waiting (hoping?) for the time when Oliver calls them out on their own vacillating standards, when they dare to climb atop those soapboxes they increasingly have lost the moral high ground to stand on.

  6. #6
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    I'd be OK with the killing if Oliver had been the same type of desperado-like character as "Daredevil's" Punisher. However, having him (sometimes arbitrarily) break people's necks, shoot them or blow them up, while at the same time presenting him as some ideal hero in a stereotypical Harlequin-style CW romance is just too jarring for me. IF the writers want to keep writing Oliver and Felicity as the DC version of Ken and Barbie, with "failing omelets"/"chatty Catty" dialogues, cheesy wedding vows and the promise of Olicity babies hovering in the background, it's just ludicrous and totally unverisimilar if they at the SAME time persists in portraying him as some kind of killing machine. Oliver Queen as the sensitive lover and Felicity's near-ideal husband, or as a damaged man who find peace and happiness in the arms of a young/pure/CW "plain" latter-day Jane Eyre cannot simultaneously be a punisher/avenger who has been so brutalized that he enjoys killing (and continues to take men's lives even after he made a vow to never kill again).

    The "Arrow" writers can either try to give a somewhat realistic portrayal of a still-damaged (anti)hero who has learned to kill (and sometimes resorts to killing in the name of justice) or continue the tumblr-esque Olicity fantasy with cutesy Oliver and Felicity moments, public proposals, "red pen" flashbacks, Oliver tenderly kissing his beloved temple's, Felicity giving Oliver hero pep talks with a wobbly voice etc.etc. Since it's this typical CW brand of romance novel relationship writing which has defined Olicity since season three at least, I'd prefer if the writers just stop trying to pretend that Oliver is also a Punisher-style avenger. Right now it feels as though "Arrow" is an uneasy mix of the more gritty/brutal style of comic book/comic book adaptation storytelling, and elements that seem to come straight from one of the CW's own teenage soap operas.
    Last edited by evaba; 07-01-2017 at 09:57 AM.

  7. #7
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    I think we're looking at the era of a no-killing Oliver Queen/GA in the rearview mirror. Killing is back on the table with him, his team largely accepts it and apparently so does the city. He kills if necessary, but doesn't necessarily kill all the time. When is it ok and when is it not? They're moving goal posts at this point after five seasons.
    I tend to think the opposite. I won't rule anything out because plot always rules over characterization but I think we are largely looking at him saying he's on a no kill rule but perhaps with exceptions at times. Honestly, that's almost the same thing except for the tone and attitude on the show. I would have accepted Oliver's new reaccessed stance on killing in season five being his new standard, but then they did that whole is Oliver a killer thing? And the answer per Chase at least is no. He's not that guy anymore and he showed himself to his son...which then in Chase's head earned Oliver the right to see all his friends and family die in a gigantic island explosion.

    I don't think the show would have had Oliver struggle with who he'd been in season one if he didn't plan on not being that person in the future at all. And the no kill rule basically accomplishes that.

  8. #8
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    I'd be OK with the killing if Oliver had been the same type of desperado-like character as "Daredevil's" Punisher. However, having him (sometimes arbitrarily) break people's necks, shoot them or blow them up, while at the same time presenting him as some ideal hero in a stereotypical Harlequin-style CW romance is just too jarring for me. IF the writers want to keep writing Oliver and Felicity as the DC version of Ken and Barbie, with "failing omelets"/"chatty Catty" dialogues, cheesy wedding vows and the promise of Olicity babies hovering in the background, it's just ludicrous and totally unverisimilar if they at the SAME time persists in portraying him as some kind of killing machine. Oliver Queen as the sensitive lover and Felicity's near-ideal husband, or as a damaged man who find peace and happiness in the arms of a young/pure/CW "plain" latter-day Jane Eyre cannot simultaneously be a punisher/avenger who has been so brutalized that he enjoys killing (and continues to take men's lives even after he made a vow to never kill again).

    The "Arrow" writers can either try to give a somewhat realistic portrayal of a still-damaged (anti)hero who has learned to kill (and sometimes resorts to killing in the name of justice) or continue the tumblr-esque Olicity fantasy with cutesy Oliver and Felicity moments, public proposals, "red pen" flashbacks, Oliver tenderly kissing his beloved temple's, Felicity giving Oliver hero pep talks with a wobbly voice etc.etc. Since it's this typical CW brand of romance novel relationship writing which has defined Olicity since season three at least, I'd prefer if the writers just stop trying to pretend that Oliver is also a Punisher-style avenger. Right now it feels as though "Arrow" is an uneasy mix of the more gritty/brutal style of comic book/comic book adaptation storytelling, and elements that seem to come straight from one of the CW's own teenage soap operas.
    I disagree with you on the characterization of romance writing but if you want to get into specifics, they've never had Oliver and Felicity in a relationship when he's all down with killing. Season three he was doing his no kill rule but apart from one stolen time before he was going to be lost forever, they weren't together until he was done with the fighting and dying and killing. Then when he came back in season four, he had to find a way to fight without tapping into his darkness. Apparently he managed to do so since he got the magic tatoo to light up and block DD's powers. But he also then killed him. Only, this was after he and Felicity broke up (and she was totally down with killing DD, being the first one to say it had to happen).

    All of season five when Oliver was playing fast and loose with the killing, he and Felicity were't a couple. Weren't even close to being friends most of the time. It was only after Oliver confessed his fears about who he was (and she dismissed it as nonsense, that he wasn't that person anymore) did they start to get back together. And the season ended with Oliver firmly refusing to kill Chase or be the person Chase wanted him to be and that he was "not" that man anymore. It was his past, not his present.

    So really, the show has never had Oliver and Felicity as a cute couple while also having Oliver run around killing people willy nilly.

    Now I do think that the show could still work if they did have him keep his modified kill rule while happily in a relationship with Felicity. If you actually read any of those romances, you'd find an awful lot of them are both brutal, gritty and realistic and filled with swoon worthy romance. Even stone cold killers might find love and Oliver was never stone cold.

    Chase killing his wife who he supposedly really, really loved was shocking because human being don't behave that way. I'm not arguing that people don't kill their loved ones at times, but I will argue that they don't kill them in that kind of circumstance, coldly, so they can't be a distraction. I'd argue that was the moment that Chase went from nuanced and layered to just a one note crazy evil guy.

    It's one thing I really liked about DD, that he did have a family he truly loved. He too was warped and in the end, decided he'd rather he and his daughter die than live in the world as it was, but at least he had his reasons beyond Chase's "I can't let anything get in my way of my mission"
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 07-01-2017 at 10:42 AM.

  9. #9
    Forum Whiz Amarice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard01 View Post
    I know the whole five year journey is Oliver stepping away from being killer and becoming the more no killing version of Green Arrow. So did that happen since Oliver didn't kill Adrian Chase?

    Is Oliver now completely on the no killing wagon for good this time, just being more selective, no killing but still willing to torture people for information or just like in season 4 of no killing or torturing people period.


    What are your guys thoughts?
    He didn't kill Chase, but his team killed 20+ guys in the same time. Over the course of the season Ollie also killed a number of random bad guys. So clearly there is no classic hero way realized that would give some kind of closure and an mirror image to the Hood's methods in season 1. If in season 5 Ollie was killing only when there is was no other choice (guys like Count Vertigo or Cyrus Gold) there would be some evolution of the character. But season 5, although enjoyable to watch, didn't really show consquence. Billy Malone's death should be the a turning point for Oliver - but they didn't use that opportunity.

  10. #10
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I think the takeaway from the S5 finale -- Oliver ultimately choosing not to kill Chase despite plenty of opportunities and cause -- is supposed to suggest that he has turned a corner and wanton killing aka killing with no remorse or weighing its consequences is (allegedly) not on the table any longer. In theory. We'll have to see in S6 just how long (or if!) Oliver and team reinforce this new code in their actions.

    In practice, killing has been on the table since the S4 finale when he killed Darhk and -- realistically -- even earlier, when he made exceptions to the no-kill code.

    In the Arrow universe and the world he inhabits, it was more puzzling to me that the show actually tried to impose a no-kill code on him for a spell. At best, his evolution from remorseless killer to a supposedly more "enlightened" selective killer has been spotty.

    It's more myth than reality that Oliver/Arrow/GA ever had a true "no-kill" era on the show. Has there been a season where he dropped no bodies at all? I don't think there was.

    It may have been easier to condemn Oliver when Barry, Kara and the rest were (unrealistically, in hindsight) lionized as better examples of selfless or more ideal heroes, esp in their first seasons. If they ever were to begin with. None of his costumed compatriots can now claim to stand on that soapbox with a straight face.

  11. #11
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    I disagree with you on the characterization of romance writing but if you want to get into specifics, they've never had Oliver and Felicity in a relationship when he's all down with killing. Season three he was doing his no kill rule but apart from one stolen time before he was going to be lost forever, they weren't together until he was done with the fighting and dying and killing. Then when he came back in season four, he had to find a way to fight without tapping into his darkness. Apparently he managed to do so since he got the magic tatoo to light up and block DD's powers. But he also then killed him. Only, this was after he and Felicity broke up (and she was totally down with killing DD, being the first one to say it had to happen).
    I could have been clearer, but my complaints didn't really concern the status of the Oliver/Felicity romance in relation to Oliver's killing sprees. I was more thinking in terms of characterization. To me it is a bit jarring when Oliver in some episodes is presented as this damaged/jaded man with a killer mindset, who won't hesitate to terrorize/beat up simple criminals in order to obtain information about the bigger bads, or who can break a man's neck because "nobody must know his secret"....and then in other episodes he takes on the role of the perfect romantic hero, who tenderly kisses his beloved, or gets down on his knees to propose to her. It's like an awkward combo of a Punisher story and a pretty standard romcom or Barbara Cartland romance (done in the slick CW version of the nighttime soaps, specifically tailored for the young adult female demographic).

    Chase's killing of his wife may be more shocking from an in fiction perspective, but no real life woman would love or marry a man who is, in essence, a serial killer (I'm sure that Oliver's body count is up to at least sixty human beings right now, which would make him a serial killer by Real Life standards). So, whether Oliver was together with Felicity while he commited his killings is not really relevant for my argument, which is more about two sides of Oliver's character portrayal that don't fit, at least not by the standards of psychological realism. I guess I just find all this fandom (and TBPTB) discourse about romantic dinners/getaways, weddings, Olicity babies etc. so "fluffy" and so inundated with romantic clichés and tropes, tropes which IMHO clash with the dark, violent and frankly murderous avenger persona that the writers/producers are ALSO trying to project in their writing for Oliver. This aspect has been softened quite a lot since the first season, but even in season five (after Oliver's supposedly life-changing happy suburban sejour with the Love of his Life) he had no problems killing if he needed to. The whole thing is just not psychologically convincing in my eyes, especially since the Oliver/Felicity romance has little of the depth and complexity that I expect/like to see in a portrayal of an adult fictional relationship.
    Last edited by evaba; 07-02-2017 at 04:04 AM.

  12. #12
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I think the takeaway from the S5 finale -- Oliver ultimately choosing not to kill Chase despite plenty of opportunities and cause -- is supposed to suggest that he has turned a corner and wanton killing aka killing with no remorse or weighing its consequences is (allegedly) not on the table any longer. In theory. We'll have to see in S6 just how long (or if!) Oliver and team reinforce this new code in their actions.
    "In theory" is the key phrase there. Because we were supposed to think the same after he refused to kill his mother's killer at the end of season 2. There was no reason to backtrack on his no kill policy after The Unthinkable, but they've done it repeatedly since then. Either because they don't know what else to do with the character or because they want to prop other characters (Felicity) as the ones who prevent him from becoming a killer again.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    It's more myth than reality that Oliver/Arrow/GA ever had a true "no-kill" era on the show. Has there been a season where he dropped no bodies at all? I don't think there was.
    Technically he has killed at least one person in every season, but in season 2 they took his no kill policy very seriously. He only killed The Count and that was because he had no alternative. Unlike the murders of Ra's and Darhk the following seasons. So it's not a myth to suggest that there was a time where Arrow was turning a corner in that regard. They just didn't follow through on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    It may have been easier to condemn Oliver when Barry, Kara and the rest were (unrealistically, in hindsight) lionized as better examples of selfless or more ideal heroes, esp in their first seasons. If they ever were to begin with. None of his costumed compatriots can now claim to stand on that soapbox with a straight face.
    To be fair, they were better examples of heroes to begin with. Neither Barry not Kara killed 25+ people during their respectives shows' first season. The waters have gotten more muddy since then (with Barry creating Flashpoint and Kara killing Rhea) but comparing the initial premise of all 3 shows, Oliver was meant to come across as a dark vigilante while the other two had a clearer stance against crossing the line.

  13. #13
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Technically he has killed at least one person in every season, but in season 2 they took his no kill policy very seriously. He only killed The Count and that was because he had no alternative. Unlike the murders of Ra's and Darhk the following seasons. So it's not a myth to suggest that there was a time where Arrow was turning a corner in that regard. They just didn't follow through on it.
    He also was apart of that plan to blow up the Russian guards Know Thy Enemy.
    To be fair, they were better examples of heroes to begin with. Neither Barry not Kara killed 25+ people during their respectives shows' first season. The waters have gotten more muddy since then (with Barry creating Flashpoint and Kara killing Rhea) but comparing the initial premise of all 3 shows, Oliver was meant to come across as a dark vigilante while the other two had a clearer stance against crossing the line.
    Also Barry and Kara don't hunt people and put them down when they have killed, like Oliver did. Have a very great day!

    God bless you all!

  14. #14
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    but comparing the initial premise of all 3 shows, Oliver was meant to come across as a dark vigilante while the other two had a clearer stance against crossing the line.
    I think esp. with S1 Flash they did want to contrast Barry's "sunnier" brand of heroism with Oliver's (intentionally) darker brand. For myself, I would say the shine started to wear off re: Flash being untarnished as a hero soon after his Speed Force vision quest. He got a tad too "godly" and entitled in his attitude and actions aka "I can do these things because I have the ability to do so" as the episodes and seasons went on, culminating in Flashpoint and subsequent timeline jumping.

    His lurking around Iris -- while she was still Eddie's girlfriend/fiancee(!) -- didn't sit well with me in terms of Barry's character, whether this was by accident or intentional in the writing. It was frankly a bit creepy of him. (I guess we could argue that Barry could still be a great hero in the mask ... but a lousy, Bro Code-breaking putz as a civilian. Eddie was supposedly his friend too.)

    There was a spell when SG actually could claim the title of the most "ideal" of the Flarrowverse superheroes back in S1 but we've now seen that even she didn't hang on to that title for too long.

    And, of course, the LoT crew are outlaws in all but name. (They broke time!)

    Following through on lessons learned has been problematic across the whole Flarrowverse. Oliver's been at it the longest, hence his no-kill dilemma being the most glaring at the moment. I feel the Flash series, as the next senior show, is also fast approaching its own ethical crossroads in needing to settle when it is okay for Barry to mess with time and when it is not. LoT may be okay with a temporal free-for-all, but Flash shouldn't.

    Maybe Oliver and team will settle on some official code of behaviour in the field in S6, maybe not. I'm rolling with 'Killing, if necessary -- but not necessarily killing' as their maxim until the show demonstrates otherwise.

    Supposedly he turned a corner after "Lian Yu" (No more wanton killing/killing for revenge, except for extreme as-yet-undefined circumstances?), but it remains to be seen if this is the case this time ... or we get a S5 premiere situation where he drops some bodies for no justification other than he was on the clock, not because he had no other recourse. After five seasons, it is long past time Oliver and team pick an m.o. and stick with it.

    They won't please everyone -- some will say they're still too bloody, others will say they're not bloody enough. Great Scott, Team Arrow, just choose one already.

    It would be nice to see some lessons applied to their future behaviour: Oliver, Barry, Kara and Co. It seems like my annual request for the Berlantiverse at this point.

  15. #15
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Eveba Chase's killing of his wife may be more shocking from an in fiction perspective, but no real life woman would love or marry a man who is, in essence, a serial killer (I'm sure that Oliver's body count is up to at least sixty human beings right now, which would make him a serial killer by Real Life standards). So, whether Oliver was together with Felicity while he commited his killings is not really relevant for my argument, which is more about two sides of Oliver's character portrayal that don't fit, at least not by the standards of psychological realism.
    Technically there are way too many women out there willing to marry serial killers though I wouldn't call those groupies sane.

    But in Oliver's case, it's a question of perspective. His body count is high, but I doubt even Oliver with his heavy guilt thinks of himself as a serial killer and I'm positive that Felicity doesn't either. I think Felicity and Diggle and presumably the rest of the team now look at his kills as justifiable, even if by law, they would be called murder. No one in Oliver's orbit thinks of it like that anymore. They see it as waging a war the police can not win on their own. So instead of serial killer, think of Oliver more like an unsanctioned soldier.

    And l think we could agree that no one is going to say soldiers shouldn't end up with a happy family life. PTSD doesn't always make that so easy, but four or five years away from the worst of it, it's not absurd to envision some fluffy happiness in such a person's life.

    The difference between Oliver (and I'm only talking Oliver) being a serial killer or a soldier or some law enforcement officer is permission by the government. The team lack permission, but none of them see what they are doing as anything close to serial killer status. Or even murder.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 07-02-2017 at 09:40 PM.

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