Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Destiny Calling" and "Heavydirtysoul?

[Aries83]

What did you think?

Edit: I gave it a 10, because I thought it was AWESOME!

The opening was HILARIOUS! Note to self: Give seniors their money ("My money, my savings!")...

The Bruce/Alfred scenes were, hands down, my FAVORITE part. They really carried the 2 hours.

When Bruce stabbed Alfred, I gasped—even though I already saw the Lazarus pit nearby (I wasn't sure if they'd use it or not). I'm glad they did.

The only thing I didn't like was Fish dying, again, but: It makes sense, and I'm glad it provided a deeper meaning for Oswald. It was nice to see them working together, too. Honestly, I'm just glad Jada stuck around as long as she did. She created a great character. I'd be open to her returning, but I think it's a long shot...

Barbara biting the dust was a bit surprising since I thought they'd keep her over Tabatha, but taking Selina under her wing might be interesting.

Butch's fate really threw me for a loop, though. Who is Cyrus Gold?

Nothing to say about Lee, except THANK GOD! (although the bar scene was HILARIOUS!)

As for Nygmobblepot, I guess Ed is on ice—literally! I'm sure he'll be thawed, but I was glad Penguin outsmarted him.

I didn't expect Bruce to become a vigilante this early, but it was a welcome surprise. I loved that shot of him overlooking the city.

Anyway, it was a very good finale. I'm not sure where Season 4 is headed, but it looks promising!

What did everyone else think?

P.S. Can someone tell me what happened with Bruce after Alfred left the interrogation room (My cable signal cut out and didn't come back until after t he commercial break)?

[darkphoenix21]

I'm not sure what to make of the Lee/Jim relationship. They didn't know what they wanted to do with Lee so they turned her evil for several episodes until the found a way to write her out without actually killing her. It was a cop out. They cured her and Jim, she leaves for the nth time, forgives him and is going to wait for him until they can be together again which could be never as far as this series is considered or until they decide she needs to come back.

Anyway onto the deaths:

After 3 seasons they finally kill off Barbara (It just happened to be Tabitha's doing) but, not before she puts a bullet through Butch's head; of which later we find out he's really Cyrus Gold (aka Solomon Grundy). Jim kills Fish (that was a waste of Jada; it looked like they were going somewhere with her and than Jim just stabs her) there was plenty of stabbing in these two episodes)...

Which brings me to Bruce finally meeting the one behind it all...Ras al Ghul himself who delivers Alfred to him for one last task. Bruce stabs Alfred which finally snaps Bruce out of it. Ras tells Bruce to use the water from the Lazarus pit to heal Alfred. This leads to their little heart to heart which leads Bruce into beginning his journey to becoming Batman.

Oh, and Selina gets her whip and new friendship with Tabitha.

The series finale on a whole closed out this chapter of Gotham kind of neatly all most like a series finale; though next season they can totally rework the series to make it like Batman Begins.

[AsteroidMike]

To give a short summary, it was terrific. Easily the Bruce-Alfred scenes were among my favorite ones in the whole episode, although I did think Alfred dying was a bit cheap since he was conveniently next to the Lazarus Pit, so that got resolved in like 3 minutes. I joked about wondering if Oliver Queen was also in the background somewhere.

Despite the various Lee criticisms, I actually liked her when she was being evil. Kind of a turn-on.

[TheSecretVampire]

What did you think?

Edit: I gave it a 10, because I thought it was AWESOME!

The opening was HILARIOUS! Note to self: Give seniors their money ("My money, my savings!")...

The Bruce/Alfred scenes were, hands down, my FAVORITE part. They really carried the 2 hours.

When Bruce stabbed Alfred, I gasped—even though I already saw the Lazarus pit nearby (I wasn't sure if they'd use it or not). I'm glad they did.

The only thing I didn't like was Fish dying, again, but: It makes sense, and I'm glad it provided a deeper meaning for Oswald. It was nice to see them working together, too. Honestly, I'm just glad Jada stuck around as long as she did. She created a great character. I'd be open to her returning, but I think it's a long shot...

Barbara biting the dust was a bit surprising since I thought they'd keep her over Tabatha, but taking Selina under her wing might be interesting.

Butch's fate really threw me for a loop, though. Who is Cyrus Gold?

Nothing to say about Lee, except THANK GOD! (although the bar scene was HILARIOUS!)

As for Nygmobblepot, I guess Ed is on ice—literally! I'm sure he'll be thawed, but I was glad Penguin outsmarted him.

I didn't expect Bruce to become a vigilante this early, but it was a welcome surprise. I loved that shot of him overlooking the city.

Anyway, it was a very good finale. I'm not sure where Season 4 is headed, but it looks promising!

What did everyone else think?

P.S. Can someone tell me what happened with Bruce after Alfred left the interrogation room (My cable signal cut out and didn't come back until after t he commercial break)?

Solomon Grundy

[costas22]

Wow, where to begin? Such an eventful 2 hours of television! And despite one big gripe I had (especially about the second hour), this was hands down the best DC show finale we got this season. It also felt like the show was attempting a cast clear out, although that may not be the case (more on that later).

Like most fans, the Bruce/Alfred scenes were my favorite part. So intense and so perfectly acted. Can't believe how far David Mazouz has come! The scene where he stabs Alfred was so horrific and I truly thought the show had delivered a major swerve. It didn't prove to be the case of course, but it was a huge shock no less. The season ends with Bruce's first attempt at being a vigilante. Like most of the stuff about this version of Bruce Wayne, it's coming a bit too early. Nevertheless, I'm intrigued to see where it takes him and his relationship with Alfred. On that note, I was glad he told off Selina and she took off to do her own thing. Those two should be in different trajectories at this stage of their lives.

Ra's felt like a mere tease! I really hope we'll see more of him in season 4. Alexander Siddig was delightful in the role.

Obviously the virus was what drove the episode and this was the weakest part of the finale, imo. This storyline became boring and the fact that its climax revolved around Jim and Lee finding a cure and not the city being saved, spoke volumes about how screwed up it was. One can only hope that Lee is truly gone for good. No offence to Morena, and despite her attempts to make infected Lee interesting, but the character has reached the end of the road.

Another character who we definitely said goodbye to is Fish. Did it sadden me? No. But it was really surprising and anti-climatic. They brought her back just for this? Infected Jim killing her without any repercussions after that? I guess it shows how out of place she was to the show. IMO they should have have written her off at the end of season 2 instead of this.

Another character who looked like a casualty at first was Butch. Only for the show to pull an actual swerve here and reveal him to be Cyrus Gold. Which was a wise move, imo. Revamping his character was long overdue.

As for Barbara, I am very sceptical about what actually happened there. At first I thought she was dead as well. But then I had a look at Erin Richards' twitter account and she seemed very psyched about returning for the 4th season of Gotham when the show got renewed. Plus, the episode never actually confirmed she was dead. Tabby's wording was very precise. My wild theory is that maybe the electrocution will alter Barbara's personality (again ) and she will turn into Harley Quinn. There was a rumor a wild back about Gotham doing its own take on the character. Either way, I really hope mobster Barbara is done. She was fun for a while, but she became too over the top. Erin deserves better, IMO.

Penguin finally got the last laugh (even though he isn't the Joker ) on Nygma and I really loved his plan for him. Of course Nygma won't stay frozen for ever, but it was great to see Oswald's evil side front and center. I guess he's the king of Gotham's criminal world again, although with this show, these things don't last long!

The penutimate scene between Jim and Bullock was a nice touch. And here's hoping these two actually do face more realistic threats next season. The viewers could use a break from freaks, monsters and viruses. Finally, I loved pretty much every scene Bullock was in. With Gordon facing his own battle with the virus and Lee the drag, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that Harvey became the hero of this show.

On a shallow note, I thought the female cast looked tremendous this week. Especially Barbs with her high boots and Lee with her very distracting cleavage.

8/10 for the finale itself.
7/10 for the season as a whole.

[Aurora Moon]

Hands up, who else thought that Lee should had died instead of Barbara? Lee was just about as annoying as season one Barbara was with no sign of character improvement in the future. For me, personally.... she's the most hated character on Gotham right now.

And what is it with Fish Mooney dying yet again??

Otherwise, the rest of the ep was great. better than the typical Gotham fare, that's for sure.

[Aries83]

Solomon Grundy

Thank you, TheSecretVampire. I looked the character up last night. Not sure how they're going to make a zombie work, unless Butch just survives?

It also felt like the show was attempting a cast clear out

I thought the same thing. Long overdue, if you ask me...

The scene where he stabs Alfred was so horrific and I truly thought the show had delivered a major swerve. It didn't prove to be the case of course, but it was a huge shock no less.

I agree. I couldn't believe it.

I'm intrigued to see where it takes him and his relationship with Alfred.

Me too. I hope he won't carry around too much guilt. Their relationship will have to be different, though. He did kill Alfred, after all.

I was glad he told off Selina and she took off to do her own thing. Those two should be in different trajectories at this stage of their lives.

That part felt like it was tacked on at the last minute. I didn't feel it was needed.

One can only hope that Lee is truly gone for good. No offence to Morena, and despite her attempts to make infected Lee interesting, but the character has reached the end of the road.

I agree. I'd be open to her coming back (much) later, but ONLY if they really make an effort to make her different. At this point, she's just somebody Gordon can mope around about, which isn't very interesting.

Another character who we definitely said goodbye to is Fish. Did it sadden me? No. But it was really surprising and anti-climatic. They brought her back just for this? Infected Jim killing her without any repercussions after that? I guess it shows how out of place she was to the show. IMO they should have have written her off at the end of season 2 instead of this.

It really bummed me out, honestly. She and Penguin finally realized they were better as a team and then Gordon knifes her... She deserved a better death than that, for sure.

However, just because I do LOVE the character, I'm going to put it out there: What if she's resurrected by Al Ghul (via the Lazarus pit), recruited to work within The League of Shadows? I know it's a long shot, but—hey—they already used it to bring back Alfred.

My wild theory is that maybe the electrocution will alter Barbara's personality (again ) and she will turn into Harley Quinn. There was a rumor a wild back about Gotham doing its own take on the character.

Not to be a buzzkill, but: I read an article that confirmed that they have no plans to introduce Harley Quinn. Like I said before, though: I really thought they'd keep her over Tabatha. I'm ok if she's done, though.

Nygma won't stay frozen for ever, but it was great to see Oswald's evil side front and center.

I just hope they end the feud once he's defrosted. The fighting between him and Fish was tiresome. I'm not sure I could sit through another season of them being at odds with each other.

Hands up, who else thought that Lee should had died instead of Barbara? Lee was just about as annoying as season one Barbara was with no sign of character improvement in the future. For me, personally.... she's the most hated character on Gotham right now.

I was hoping she'd bite the dust in a showdown with Barbara, but...

I'm just glad she's gone. Part of me thinks the only reason they wrote her out instead of offing her is because—later on—she is supposed to be become Batman's personal doctor/friend.

what is it with Fish Mooney dying yet again??

I know. Being killed by Gordon wasn't good enough for her.

[DigificWriter]

As Ares83 already said, Harley Quinn is not coming to the series any time soon (rumors/actor statements to the contrary notwithstanding), so what happened to Barbara has nothing whatsoever to do with the former character.

And, no, this isn't just me "spouting stuff"; this is information that was relayed directly to TVLine's Matt Web Mitovich by the series' producers.

[costas22]

That part felt like it was tacked on at the last minute. I didn't feel it was needed.

It's just the latest in line of random things they are doing with Selina. A few episodes back she suffered the iconic Catwoman accident, yet it's as if it never happened now. Hopefully the storyline with Tabitha will give her a new purpose. Was never a fan of the relationship with Bruce, personally. Not at this stage of their lives, anyway.

I agree. I'd be open to her coming back (much) later, but ONLY if they really make an effort to make her different. At this point, she's just somebody Gordon can mope around about, which isn't very interesting.

The problem is that we've been there before and Lee ended up returning to the city after a while. So as much as I want to believe the show wrote her out here, I don't want to get my hopes up. After they had a chance to give Jim a new love interest in Vale and they wasted it, I'm worried they consider Lee to be the one for him.

It really bummed me out, honestly. She and Penguin finally realized they were better as a team and then Gordon knifes her... She deserved a better death than that, for sure.

However, just because I do LOVE the character, I'm going to put it out there: What if she's resurrected by Al Ghul (via the Lazarus pit), recruited to work within The League of Shadows? I know it's a long shot, but—hey—they already used it to bring back Alfred.

Wouldn't surprise me. The show has a hard time letting go of its cast members, that much is certain. Just look what they are doing with Butch. At the same time, maybe Jada told them that she wouldn't return in the future so they decided now was the right time to kill off Fish. I wish her death meant something though. We are supposed to believe that her dying words motivated Penguin to seize his destiny, but he was already on that path. In essense her death wasn't done to help someone's storyline nor did it have any consequences for her killer. Disappointing.

Not to be a buzzkill, but: I read an article that confirmed that they have no plans to introduce Harley Quinn. Like I said before, though: I really thought they'd keep her over Tabatha. I'm ok if she's done, though.

There seems to be some confusion in that regard because it was David Mazouz himself who said Harley would be in the finale: https://moviepilot.com/p/david-mazou...-wayne/4282166

And then came the denial. Don't know what to make of it at this point. Maybe they want Barbara to become a proto version of HQ. For example, maybe she's her mother, similar to the show introducing Scarecrow's father. Whatever the case, we probably haven't seen the last of Barbara.

I just hope they end the feud once he's defrosted. The fighting between him and Fish was tiresome. I'm not sure I could sit through another season of them being at odds with each other.

It's a tricky one because they are 2 of Batman's arch villains and they are almost the complete article while Bruce is still a teenager. So in order to buy time the writers have the two characters at odds. Doesn't look like they'll go back to being friends, but we would have said the same about Fish and Oswald a couple of years back.

[Aries83]

Hopefully the storyline with Tabitha will give her a new purpose.

I did like the whip scene, as unrealistic as it was (Who could do that on the first try?...).

On another note, I was confused as to why Tabatha was so upset when she learned Barbara killed Butch—mainly because she barely acted like he even existed as it was.

maybe Jada told them that she wouldn't return in the future so they decided now was the right time to kill off Fish. I wish her death meant something though. We are supposed to believe that her dying words motivated Penguin to seize his destiny, but he was already on that path. In essense her death wasn't done to help someone's storyline nor did it have any consequences for her killer. Disappointing.

Yeah. The only case I can make for Al Ghul resurrecting her would be that she's already died, been brought back, and died again (as he has done countless times according to his origin story). He might respect what she's been through and bring her back.

Maybe they want Barbara to become a proto version of HQ. For example, maybe she's her mother, similar to the show introducing Scarecrow's father. Whatever the case, we probably haven't seen the last of Barbara.

Maybe not. I'm on board with her being a new HQ. In fact, I think it'd be hilarious if it happened and she called Gordon, "Puddin!"

Doesn't look like they'll go back to being friends, but we would have said the same about Fish and Oswald a couple of years back.

All I want out of it is for Ed to come away with more respect for Oswald, really.

[TyrantLord]

What gets me the most about the finale is that, after everything that happened, they let Lee walk away, scott free?

Even IF you ignore the fact that her preventing Jim from getting to the bomb on time makes her just as responsible for the death and destruction caused by the virus, she still buried a cop alive! How the hell would GCPD at the very least let that one stand? At the very least she should be facing attempting murder charges, which is what 10-15 years in jail these days? But frankly, she should've been held responsible for Gotham's mess with the virus too. You can't excuse this one for her mind not being right if only BECAUSE she CHOSE the extreme route of taking the virus in the first place. It's not like in Arrow were Roy or Slade got injected against their wills, Lee CHOSE the virus just because she didn't want to feel the pain of her loss anymore. I hope the next season Jim and Harvey catch a lot of flack from their underlings because of their sloppy work in handling the whole Lee case, otherwise, shame on the writers for shoddy methods and morals.

The rest of the show was ace. Barbara and Fish are most likely dead for good, though they could bring both back for Flashbacks if need be. Butch coming back as Grundy was a genius move by Fox. Doesn't necessarily redeem them for the whole Lee fiasco but well done none the less. Did NOT see that one coming.

Dr. Bashir as Ra's Al Ghul was also a brilliant move. Well done and it looks like he hasn't lost his step since his Game of Thrones days, although II hope the actor's learned his lesson this time around about finish a job/kill BEFORE it costs his character his life, lol.

Yay! The Iceberg Lounge! About damned time. Can we get Penguin's eye-bottle incident, next season perchance?

Really, all Gotham would have to do at this point is a short time jump, maybe three to five years, and you'd now finally have a perfect live action Batman show. Only actors you'd need to replace would be for adults Bruce and Selena, everyone else would be business as usual. Here's Hoping!

[Aurora Moon]

I agree, Tyrant Lord. But again, letting the love interest get away with awful things tend to be pretty normal in shows like that.
Smallville did it with Lana Lang, Heroes (with a few characters), several X-men cartoon shows (Cyclops), etc.

[Dagenspear]

I agree, Tyrant Lord. But again, letting the love interest get away with awful things tend to be pretty normal in shows like that.
Smallville did it with Lana Lang

Oh please. Oliver, Clark, Lionel and Chloe all did awful things and got away with it. It's not a love interest or Lana thing.

What gets me the most about the finale is that, after everything that happened, they let Lee walk away, scott free?

Even IF you ignore the fact that her preventing Jim from getting to the bomb on time makes her just as responsible for the death and destruction caused by the virus, she still buried a cop alive! How the hell would GCPD at the very least let that one stand? At the very least she should be facing attempting murder charges, which is what 10-15 years in jail these days? But frankly, she should've been held responsible for Gotham's mess with the virus too. You can't excuse this one for her mind not being right if only BECAUSE she CHOSE the extreme route of taking the virus in the first place.

That's not true. She took the virus as some loony form of self punishment. Her intentions weren't even remotely connected to what she did. If anything she should be locked up for her own protection. Not for her crimes while under an insanity causing virus. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

[Aurora Moon]

@Dagenspear
Why am I not surprised that you showed up when I mentioned Lana Lang? I do agree that others on Smallville got away with some awful crap too... but Lana Lang was particularly egregious because she was the only one who didn't get called out on her crap the same way others did. Clark clearly didn't trust Lionel 100% after he became a "reformed" guy and brought up good reasons why... so Lionel got called out on his crap. Chloe repeatedly got called out on her crap by Ollie and others. Even Clark himself gets called out for being a BDA (big dumb alien) on the rare occasion.

Lana Lang was the only one that didn't get called out for her behavior.... everyone was scrambling to make excuses for her instead. Like the infamous incident where she kidnapped an coma patient from the hospital, let her die and then dumped the body elsewhere. And Clark tried to compare that to him stealing a car one time, in an attempt to downplay what she did. As if it was even similar when it wasn't.

Likewise, I see a similar pattern with Lee Thompkins. Gordon arguably screwed up worse than she did a lot of times, but at least he was on suspended leave and got called out on it multiple times. At the very least, they should had put her in jail, etc. But no, they're all letting her walk away free. The fact that she was under the influence of the virus shouldn't mean anything at all.... If everyone else under the virus was supposed to be held accountable for some of the damages they caused, then so should she.

[costas22]

As far as Less goes, I think they were a bit on unchartered territory. She's the first Gotham character who did something criminal while she was infected and then got cured. If she was still infected, imo she should have been locked up at Arkham, like Barnes was. Not thrown in jail. By the same proxy, if Barnes returns next season and is cured from the virus, he also should be allowed to walk free. Not saying whether I agree or not with that logic. Just that the show hasn't proven itself to be inconsistent regarding infected people yet. But it is up to them to remain consistent.