View Poll Results: What did you think?

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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    Ah...I vaguely remember that, but not clearly. I casually watch LoT and like its' campiness, but don't pay as much attention to the details. Did RF or the Legends bring him back to his timeline so that he could be in S5 of Arrow, or was that a plot hole?

    ETA: Just rewatched ep10 and finale of LoT. They never grabbed him in the ep, just made him an offer. If they wanted to, they could easily explain he turned them down. Then, when his life was in jeopardy (finale of Arrow S5) Thawne could have taken him at that time. Not saying it is good writing, but it does live up to the standard of writing for them.
    Sara says they dumped Malcolm "back in his crappy apartment" in the finale. He joined when he was given the offer, though that doesn't mean Thawne didn't recruit him because he knew what Malcolm's inevitable end would be. Whether he shared that with Malcolm, well, that's a different story.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eowin View Post
    Way back in Season 2, Oliver and Slade climbed up on top of the hill to get a look at the freighter, just before it was bombed by Ivo. When the camera panned, there was a building visible- my theory is that it was the monastery.

    http://imgur.com/xtDqRFq
    Thanks. I didn't recall that. And yes, that might have been the monastery.

  3. #48
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Not a bad finale, but I couldn't get out of my head the fact that I had seen better episodes this season.
    It wasn't the best episode of the season. A good episode -- action-packed and frantic -- yes, but not the best in S5.

    That title probably belongs to "Checkmate". Arrow had a good run of eps around that time where, putting these eps. together, they were punching well above their weight class.

    In terms of Arrow season finales, it's easily better than the past two (S3 and S4's) and at par with S2's and maybe even edges ahead of it.

    In terms of Arrow villains, while Deathstroke made strides in the finale in repairing the series' mishandling of him in his S3 ep. I think Chase ran away with the title of best series villain to date. He never looked back after Checkmate. Ra's Al Ghul(!), Blood, Malcolm, Darhk, even silver medallist Slade his closest competitor are left choking on his dust as of 5x23.

    And while I get that the woodland stroll gave 'Team Malcolm' Arrow characters the chance to address issues that had been neglected or put on the backburner, it did feel like a bit of last-minute contrived melodrama filler. Felicity and Samantha's was pointless, beyond stirring up unneeded drama (they should have shelved that stuff for after the escape like Felicity said, or better offscreen where we don't have to see it) and Malcolm's late-inning heart to heart with Thea wasn't that much better.

    Malcolm was exiting this season, so in one sense that moment was bound to happen in some form. But leaving it to the finale didn't really deliver the impact the death of Malcolm Merlyn might otherwise have had. I never got the sense over the seasons Thea could see him as more than a monster who got Tommy and Sara killed. Which is why Thea's confused meh reaction after his death was more meta than they realized. This speaks more to the general mishandling of Malcolm's character over the seasons. Is he a friend? Is he a foe? The series wanted it both ways, when they should have landed on one side and stuck with it. So what we get is a lukewarm frenemy. JB did his best to sell it, but Malcolm has been treading water for a few years now.

    He should remain dead, but of course they left a door open by not confirming a dead body. A meta, magical or time travel-caused escape hatch for him would be lame -- but also the means they could use to bring him back.

    I feel a 23-ep season is too long for shows like these. Either a shorter season like LoT's, or breaking up the season into two distinct arcs (I think Gotham and AoS have been trying this route this season) might serve their interests better.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    The way they ended it with Merlyn - it totally doesn't look as if he was dead for good. Remember, no body = no confirmation of death.
    And sometimes not even then ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    Oliver's choice to not killl Chase and his hero way - it would have much greater effect it there was no dozen of dead guys his team just had killed lying in the background. Srsly.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amarice View Post
    Also, the flashbacks also ruined a bit for me season 1 opening. But well, at least the scene with Moira rewarded it].
    I liked the flashbacks. It was fun to see how my mind had to change from it's interpretation of the first scenes in the pilot. Nicely done by the writers. It also explained how Oliver got into killing mode so easily after leaving Lian Yu. His last kills had been, what, a week ago?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by smllvllfn View Post
    I think the Legends have their own problems. Based on their finale they're in LA and Dinosaurs are roaming around. I agree with some other theories that I've read that Slade knows some place they'll be safe, if they want to change their minds about Merlyn, he could have the boat that Oliver told them about, or the far reaching crossover choice, they found an Argus phone and called Cisco and he breached himself there and got them all out.
    I think there are many ways they could have survived even without external help. The water was free of explosives for example. There were many bombs - it is not likely they were strong ones. So there should have been save places that Felicity had found in time. Also, Thalia would have had a plan to survive the explosions.

  6. #51
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    I have to agree with PL that 23 episodes is a bad idea for one story arc, so to speak. AoS has been doing 2-3 separate arcs since Season 2, same with Gotham, and its worked wonders as opposed to their 'season long' story arc in the first seasons with Centipede/Hydra on the AoS front and a simple crime procedural on the Gotham front. I think all of the Arrowverse shows, aside from Legends which has shorter seasons, should adopt this model. Not doing so in order to 'show their independence' or 'do their own thing' isn't the smart play, but I've honestly given up on expecting the Arrowverse writers/showrunners to make the smart play most of the time.

  7. #52
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    Sara says they dumped Malcolm "back in his crappy apartment" in the finale. He joined when he was given the offer, though that doesn't mean Thawne didn't recruit him because he knew what Malcolm's inevitable end would be. Whether he shared that with Malcolm, well, that's a different story.
    Yes, what you're saying makes sense...but I'm talking about what the writers could do. They, unlike you, don't make much sense. Dhark was not dropped off at the same time/location that Thawne took him from, I'm sure the writers would feel justified in saying Malcolm got dumped in a different time/location as well. Not that any of it matters. In the end, alive or dead, TPTB will do what they want. And when they do we'll have something else to complain about.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post

    I feel a 23-ep season is too long for shows like these. Either a shorter season like LoT's, or breaking up the season into two distinct arcs (I think Gotham and AoS have been trying this route this season) might serve their interests better.
    Yeah, I think it's too long for a season-long villain. If they were to abandon that mentality and instead come up with individual episodes, I don't see why it couldn't work. These shows, like the comics, have become incredibly decompressed. I think I'd prefer a more procedural format with the ability to have extended arcs as necessary, perhaps with thematic ties throughout the season.

    Breaking them into two or three segments would also work. Gotham and AoS have been breaking their seasons up for the past two and three years, respectively. Gotham likes to actually subtitle different parts of its seasons. AoS had to break its seasons in half to accommodate Agent Carter for two years. This year, it was split into thirds, and I think it worked fairly well to avoid fatigue. I think it's worked decently for Gotham too.

    Arrow and Flash tend to live or die by the success of their villain plot. If you don't like the Prometheus or Savitar stories, you're basically out of luck. There might be some bottle episodes that are enjoyable, but when the season keeps hammering the arch villain into your head, an episode that breaks from that story can feel like a waste of time.

    I also wish they would stop attempting to follow real time. It's positively ridiculous that every single big bad sets a countdown for mid-May.

  9. #54
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    Arrow and Flash tend to live or die by the success of their villain plot. If you don't like the Prometheus or Savitar stories, you're basically out of luck. There might be some bottle episodes that are enjoyable, but when the season keeps hammering the arch villain into your head, an episode that breaks from that story can feel like a waste of time.
    I would add that the villain of the week format that we had in season one is a good counterpoint to the dragged out Big Bad story arcs. I still remember many of the colorful "villain of the week" guys we had in season one. They provided some variety and gave the writers the opportunity to explore different kinds of villainy/crime, so to speak...while at the same time tying the episodic villains to the overarching Big Bad plot. That's something that's been lacking lately, and it makes the individual episodes turn into a blur, without any distinct sub-plots...or at least that's how it feels for me.

  10. #55
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    I think there are many ways they could have survived even without external help. The water was free of explosives for example. There were many bombs - it is not likely they were strong ones. So there should have been save places that Felicity had found in time. Also, Thalia would have had a plan to survive the explosions.
    We would expect Talia to know everything and yet, she was there in the temple when Chase tried and ALMOST succeeded in getting Oliver to kill him. That tells me that none of Chase's gal pals knew he was a dead man's switch. They might live on, but pretty much they will have lucked out that Oliver wasn't so easily manipulated. Unless the plan was always for Chase to kill himself on the boat? Then it wouldn't matter that Talia was beat, tied up, and left with BS at the temple. Presumably Talia would have had a way to free herself, that seems to be a skill they'd teach to Nanda Parbat Tots, but I'll be curious if they had another way off the island or if Chase didn't tell them he'd disabled the plane. I'm really curious how hard the bad girls have to work to get off the island. Will they have to team up with the team?
    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    I have to agree with PL that 23 episodes is a bad idea for one story arc, so to speak. AoS has been doing 2-3 separate arcs since Season 2, same with Gotham, and its worked wonders as opposed to their 'season long' story arc in the first seasons with Centipede/Hydra on the AoS front and a simple crime procedural on the Gotham front. I think all of the Arrowverse shows, aside from Legends which has shorter seasons, should adopt this model. Not doing so in order to 'show their independence' or 'do their own thing' isn't the smart play, but I've honestly given up on expecting the Arrowverse writers/showrunners to make the smart play most of the time.
    MG recently has been talking up and praising the first five episodes of season 5 because they had Church as the main villain for that period of time. I take that as him at least planning to do that again, though I always felt that Church wasn't around long enough. He should have probably been kept as a foe until the mid-season finale.

    But if they wanted to do a couple mid level bad guy arcs before they got to the seasons big bad, it would work. Already they have Vigilante and BS to juggle.

    It's funny how much the writers seem to hate villain of the week guys. I wonder if it takes more effort from the writers to write a one off case to solve rather than just sprinkling in some character stuff in around a couple scenes needed to add to the big bad without actually having to really plot out a complete story.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 06-01-2017 at 12:26 AM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    We would expect Talia to know everything and yet, she was there in the temple when Chase tried and ALMOST succeeded in getting Oliver to kill him. That tells me that none of Chase's gal pals knew he was a dead man's switch. They might live on, but pretty much they will have lucked out that Oliver wasn't so easily manipulated. Unless the plan was always for Chase to kill himself on the boat?
    Of course it is possible that Talia didn't know the full plan. But someone - or rather many someones - had to place the bombs. And that someone was not Chase. As Chase allied with Talia who had many students I think it is likely that they placed the bombs. As to the boat, yes, Chase's plan was always to kill himself there, because when Oliver had to let him escape via helicopter Chase told Oliver they will meet again "on the boat".

    That reminds me: ARGUS must have been infiltrated by Chase, because they have the island under surveilance via satellite. Planting all that many bombs, flying planes and boats couldn't have escaped their eye, especially as they had that prison to run. Also, Chase had recruited Boomerang and tried to recruit Slade before Oliver "freed" them. But Lyla didn't know anything about all this or she would have told Diggle.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Then it wouldn't matter that Talia was beat, tied up, and left with BS at the temple. Presumably Talia would have had a way to free herself, that seems to be a skill they'd teach to Nanda Parbat Tots, but I'll be curious if they had another way off the island or if Chase didn't tell them he'd disabled the plane. I'm really curious how hard the bad girls have to work to get off the island. Will they have to team up with the team?
    I agree. It would be nice to learn how they escaped and how much they knew.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    MG recently has been talking up and praising the first five episodes of season 5 because they had Church as the main villain for that period of time. I take that as him at least planning to do that again, though I always felt that Church wasn't around long enough. He should have probably been kept as a foe until the mid-season finale.
    Dunno. I didn't like him, I always wondered why nobody simply shot him.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    But if they wanted to do a couple mid level bad guy arcs before they got to the seasons big bad, it would work. Already they have Vigilante and BS to juggle.
    And if we are lucky an arc with Slade looking for his son and and arc with Anatoly being saved by Oliver.

    And don't forget Helix! They are still out there doing ... whatever they are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    It's funny how much the writers seem to hate villain of the week guys. I wonder if it takes more effort from the writers to write a one off case to solve rather than just sprinkling in some character stuff in around a couple scenes needed to add to the big bad without actually having to really plot out a complete story.
    I think it is actually the opposite. One episode stories are easier and were the norm for many years in TV series. Around the time of DS9 and Babylon 5 (starting 1993) the bigger arcs became popular. Nowadays we usually have both A (one episode) and B (longer arcs) stories in all episodes with sometimes more screen time given to the A story and sometimes more screen time to the B story. Personally I usually prefer the B stories, I would not like a return to only A stories.

    But B stories (big arcs) are more difficult to write because the writer team cannot just focus on one episode for consistency. They have to know what exactly happened in all the previous episodes. If every episode stands alone and at the end of the episode everything is back to how it was before the writers just have to make sure that their own story is self-consistent.
    Last edited by Freawaru; 06-01-2017 at 05:56 AM.

  12. #57
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    I think it is actually the opposite. One episode stories are easier and were the norm for many years in TV series. Around the time of DS9 and Babylon 5 (starting 1993) the bigger arcs became popular.
    X-Files probably should get a lot of credit for that as well.

    I do tend to disagree to an extent about which are easier to write. Over reaching arcs are hard to sustain and pull off altogether, but I don't think that hard to add within the single episode. Whereas when you are doing a bad guy of the week, you have to come up with a beginning, middle, conclusion and all the details and the clues that flow into one another. It's all very plotty. I know when I'm writing a fan fic, I find it much easier to do the big arc than the one off stuff because in part, I have a hard time doing it knowing it's not important in the grand scheme of things, but it does add texture and a place to put a lot of good character interaction, but I find it a pain to do, so I have to wonder if the same goes for TV writers.

    I've noticed that the one off stories on a lot of shows get less tight as shows age. Not probably the ones that really are still procedurals at heart, like a CSI or NCIS or any of the Law and Order shows, but shows like Bones and Castle, as they aged, I could tell the writing for that part of the episodes became more slap dash. On Bones it was common in the later season to have someone figure out the mystery with an "I got it" or just a knowing look and then fast forward to the suspect in the interrogation room where they just explain everything to the audience instead of actually showing them finding the key evidence and cuffing the bad guy.

    It sort of feels that way with Arrow. Like they are bored by the details and the crime solving aspects unless it's personal or a big bad and even then soooo many steps are skipped from A to B.

    Nowadays we usually have both A (one episode) and B (longer arcs) stories in all episodes with sometimes more screen time given to the A story and sometimes more screen time to the B story. Personally I usually prefer the B stories, I would not like a return to only A stories.
    No, neither would I but with 23 episodes, I think at times the show would benefit if it set aside the big arcs and just let the team have some wins in the short term. And also, the one off episodes are great places to have team building moments. Those are the episodes that would have the space to show the friendships and camaraderie or even just moments of their home life or work life. Details that are world building.

    Friendships and world building shouldn't be limited only to being shown at the start. If they don't keep returning and showing the positive reasons these character do trust and appreciate and just enjoy each other, that belief in their bonds starts to fade. Same with the world building. We need to see our characters exist outside of just the Bunker or the fights or the Mayor's office.

    I'd love to have an episode open up with Rene or Curtis or even Quentin getting out of their car/off their bike to go in and get a loaf of bread or to go sock shopping when something or someone catches their attention. I think it's in these procedural episodes where they'd have space to do these things and give the team a chance to show how good they are at what they do. By definition of the season long Big Bad, they HAVE to keep failing and we need something to balance that out.

  13. #58
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    I think the crossovers get in the way of the main story. Like episodes 1-7 deal with the main bad and other filler, then they stop that chase in order to crossover in the 8th episode and then resume the big bad chase in episode 9 before the winter hiatus. Obviously, I don't know how these things work but if it were me, I would have 3 different arcs per season, 1-8, 9-16, and 17-22....and then end each show's season end with the big crossover event. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the crossovers but it's a weird transition from them going from say looking for Prometheus, then dropping that for a episode in order to crossover and then comeback to that.

  14. #59
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    I wouldn't want the Crossover at the end. Some show is always going to get the short end of the story. And the crossover is stuck where it is to grab the ratings and late enough to give the individual shows a chance to get their footing on their season and be able to juggle some crazy schedules. I don't think it will change.

    From a story structure, setting the crossovers completely separate from the rest of the season makes sense but it is what it is. They are never going to put it first or last or going into the mid-season break since those are important episodes that they monitor for ratings and viewership and important to set up or conversely tie up story beats .

    I wish we had what they have in the UK with all the best shows doing specials around the Holidays, even if the show isn't doing a current season. But that's just not the way it works.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    X-Files probably should get a lot of credit for that as well.
    Ah, I never watched those so I wouldn't know - I know: shame one me

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I do tend to disagree to an extent about which are easier to write. Over reaching arcs are hard to sustain and pull off altogether, but I don't think that hard to add within the single episode.
    I think it is possible that you, as a fan fiction writer, find this easy because you write it all (except the original TV story). But if you are a team of writers details can easily become tricky. The fans, who tend to learn their favourite series by heart, find and point out all the inconsistencies that arise from one writer not having the time to learn all the details the other writers placed.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Whereas when you are doing a bad guy of the week, you have to come up with a beginning, middle, conclusion and all the details and the clues that flow into one another. It's all very plotty. I know when I'm writing a fan fic, I find it much easier to do the big arc than the one off stuff because in part, I have a hard time doing it knowing it's not important in the grand scheme of things, but it does add texture and a place to put a lot of good character interaction, but I find it a pain to do, so I have to wonder if the same goes for TV writers.
    I have not written much fan-fiction in my life but I play fantasy role playing games and there are a lot of similarities. As the game master you have to "write" the plot and the NPC's and the details of the world just as an author. It is easy to keep track of all that if you are the one and only game master, but if the game masters change every adventure it is easier to write short adventures for one or two sittings, with different locations and stories and NPC's, especially if not everybody is playing every time. I guess being an author in a writing team is more like that than being a fan-fiction writer because the world and the characters are not completely yours. So you write a plot for one adventure - one episode - not having to take into account all the characters and details of the world the other authors added.


    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I've noticed that the one off stories on a lot of shows get less tight as shows age. Not probably the ones that really are still procedurals at heart, like a CSI or NCIS or any of the Law and Order shows, but shows like Bones and Castle, as they aged, I could tell the writing for that part of the episodes became more slap dash. On Bones it was common in the later season to have someone figure out the mystery with an "I got it" or just a knowing look and then fast forward to the suspect in the interrogation room where they just explain everything to the audience instead of actually showing them finding the key evidence and cuffing the bad guy.
    I can't be sure but maybe they thought that they showed it so often it would be boring to the audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    No, neither would I but with 23 episodes, I think at times the show would benefit if it set aside the big arcs and just let the team have some wins in the short term. And also, the one off episodes are great places to have team building moments. Those are the episodes that would have the space to show the friendships and camaraderie or even just moments of their home life or work life. Details that are world building.

    Friendships and world building shouldn't be limited only to being shown at the start. If they don't keep returning and showing the positive reasons these character do trust and appreciate and just enjoy each other, that belief in their bonds starts to fade. Same with the world building. We need to see our characters exist outside of just the Bunker or the fights or the Mayor's office.
    We agree on this

    Personally, I think they should just go with the flow. If they have good ideas for a single episode: go with it. Same for longer arcs or a whole season arc. One does not have to exclude the other. I wouldn't mind, say, an arc with Anatoly in season six even if maybe they cannot integrate it later in the over season arc. If they can integrate it all the better but it is not necessary.

    In any case season 5 was really good again and they must have re-watched season one at least in parts considering all the nodding to it. Details like Slade's remark "there is no giving up to these guys" made this episode really superb for me.

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