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  1. #61
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    And after Arrow has been on for five seasons and has spent five seasons going it's own way, it's a wonder that the source material is expected to be a strong influence or indicator of the show's direction.
    And some people would say that this direction has not been beneficial to the show. If you ask most non-shippers, season three and four represent a decline in relation to earlier seasons, and that is when the writing really started diverting, both from the comics AND from the show's own original ( "grounded" and realistic) premises. One example is the introduction of magic in season four (the ludicrous Dahrk magic story arc, and the even sillier "dark forces/magic can be defeated by HOPE" ending). Furthermore, in the efforts to make Felicity more important and relevant to the story the writers came up with IMHO too many hacker-related plots, and used Felicity as a Deus ex machina to solve any plot problem. I know that the all Berlanti shows are prone to use hacking and technology/gadgets as easy plot solutions, but "Arrow" sometimes goes overboard with it, as in the Felicity/Noah "hack off"-in combination -with- family -dispute scenes in "Schism". It just felt really out of place in the penultimate episode, at least in my eyes.

    And if Arrow "is going its own way", the showrunners are being pretty half-assed about it, as when they decided to introduce Dinah's Insta-Canary in the fifth season, because "a Green Arrow adaptation needs a Black Canary" (according to Wendy Mericle). It's kind of odd that Guggenheim and company discovered this truism after killing off the Black Canary they already had! I honestly don't know if such inconsequential and nonsensical storytelling can really be called "going your own way". I'd say that the "Arrow" TPTB are too susceptible to outside influences to give any impression of real artistic integrity or sense of direction.

    I personally think that Dinah Drake could have been given more screen time and character development in season five if the writers had been more skilled and had more inclination to let her be an important person on the show and in Oliver's life. There are plenty of television series that manage to introduce supporting characters in later seasons and give them substantial storylines. I've just finished the brilliant series "The Killing", and every season the writers managed to give fleshed out, interesting and independent storylines to the newly introduced characters who surrounded the "core" characters of Linden and Holder. The "Arrow" TPTB/writers are so, if not obsessed, at least partial to their supposed "core" characters and their interaction that when they DO introduce canon characters, such as Roy or Dinah/NUCanary, they are treated like bit players. And honestly, what is even the point of Oliver using the Green Arrow moniker, or the writers referencing the comics if they're so committed to presenting a totally different version of Oliver Queen/Green Arrow? Why not call it "The Dynamic Duo" or "Adventures of the Original Team" (or something similar) if their goal is to turn the original material into a story about a Batman-esque tortured serial killer and his love affair with his hacker partner? If an adaptation strays so far from its original sources that it doesn't really differ from the rest of the CW staple formula shows, it might as well be marketed as an independent creation, rather than as a comic book adaptation.

    It might be that there are somewhat deluded Laurel/BC fans out there who dream about a reformed Black Siren and a renewed Laurel/Oliver romance, but I personaly don't want Black Siren anywhere near Oliver's manparts. As far as I'm concerned that train departed a long time ago (if that is the correct idiom!). I prefer if her story evolves independently of any romantic liaison with Oliver. In fact, being romantically involved with Oliver usually has detrimental effects on whichever female character takes on the role of "love interest", so I think Black Siren will be better off without Oliver. Also, Guggenheim seems so convinced that Olicity is one of the most chemistry-laden, epic romances in TV history that I very much doubt that he and his writers will stray from the Olicity-path, especially so late in the series. They'll just try to tone it down as much as they can, as to not alienate the fans who view this romance as one of the most problematic aspects of the show.
    Last edited by evaba; 06-05-2017 at 10:00 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    But I think most fans want the specific kill/no kill "dilemma" settled, and not rehashed ad infinitum. If we take the S3 premiere as an arbitrary starting point for his 'Can I kill and still be a hero?' quandry -- he's had two seasons to figure it out. I thought it was settled back in the S4 finale when he killed Darhk -- where killing was back on the table, as a last resort. S5's finale should settle it, as he has opted not to embrace killing, even with someone like Chase. We'll have to wait and see how long this status quo holds in S6.
    I hope that it will NOT end in Superman's "heroes never kill - at least not humans" mantra. One shouldn't try to be holier than God, IMO. Say, killing to save someone's life as Oliver did in the case of the Count is even acceptable by the law. Killing Chase would have been a completely different situation, so I would prefer it if Oliver didn't end up in a "I never kill on principle, because I am a hero" state. It is the reason I often don't like comic heroes and sometimes even prefer the villains. The heroes can't develop compassion, because they are too stuck in their own hypocrisy.

    I would like it if he killed if really necessary but also stayed away from it OUT OF COMPASSION if not. He of all people can develop compassion even for killers and tortures and I think that is much better than just deciding to adopt the alignment being "lawful good". Chase, yeah, he had some kills on his conscience but he never was as dangerous as the Count or the doll maker or Damian Darhk.

    Not killing only is a good idea if there is hope for the villain to change. How many villains have changed in Arrow? How many in Smallville? How many in the comics? Has any of Batman's insane villains ever been healed? Even the Huntress never really came back out of her darkness. So far I recall only Slade and Roy Harper to be healed from their miracuru insanity. I would like it if this was a theme in season six: second chances. And some of them working!

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    And this isn't solely on Oliver. On Team Arrow, they are essentially fighting under Oliver Queen/GA's banner; they can't simply disassociate themselves from him and wash their hands if/when he steps over the line. The rest of the team can't be hemming and hawing about whether or not it's ok that Oliver or Team Arrow kills, because they too have done more than their share of flip-flopping on whether they approve of it or think it's wrong (yeah, looking at you "OTA"). Oliver gets a lot of heat (some of it deserved, mind you) on playing on the kill/no kill line -- but the rest of the team don't have the luxury of being mute on it. The proverbial alibi "I'm only following orders" hasn't washed as an excuse for decades. Which means no one else -- Diggle and Felicity included -- is off the hook here either. Oliver doesn't operate as a lone wolf any longer, so collectively Team Arrow needs to take to heart whatever lessons they learned from Lian Yu and (I acknowledge this is a big ask in the Berlantiverse) apply it to their future behaviour. This universe seems to like people with short-term memory on important lessons.
    What I wrote about Oliver should apply to the rest of the team, too. No not-killing-on-principle. That would just be plain stupid. But with Slade being back out of the darkness of insanity and Oliver coming back out of his own darkness they could argue that the same could happen to other villains - and give them second chances (this was actually a theme since season one). Killing or not should be about the victim of Oliver (or team Arrow) not about Oliver's (or team Arrow's) own selfish conscience or alignment or something like that, if you know what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    They either think killing is on the table as an option and are willing to accept the consequences and/or scars on their conscience for it -- or no one on the team can do it on principle.
    If Oliver had not killed the count Felicity's death would be on his conscience. Fear of consequences or scars on one's conscience are not a good and useful way to make decisions - it does not develop one's character: for it is a selfish way without compassion or forgiveness. It will always end in insanity.
    Last edited by Freawaru; 06-05-2017 at 08:14 AM.

  3. #63
    The Force is Strong!!! darkphoenix21's Avatar
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    Arrow Season 6: Almost Everyone Got Blown Up! What Happens Next? (a poll of who you think survived; considering some contractual realities)

    http://tvline.com/2017/06/05/arrow-s...-yu-explosion/

  4. #64
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Chase, yeah, he had some kills on his conscience but he never was as dangerous as the Count or the doll maker or Damian Darhk
    I'll give you DD since his plan was to blow up the world, but Chase not only picked innocent people that had the misfortune to have the wrong letters in their name but he also terrorized public events. The throwing star killer was at least as dangerous and killed at least as many people as the Doll Maker and while the Count put more in danger with his drugs, he probably killed less than Chase. Plus Chase wasn't even safe for his loved ones or his "partners".

    And I think there is an argument that if Oliver had killed him when he first had the chance, Chase would never have gotten far enough along to cause many of the problems he did.

  5. #65
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    Darhk was likely the biggest global threat, with the nuclear missiles and his magical abilities. On paper, he should be beyond Team Arrow's ability to contain him. As the S4 finale showed us, this didn't materialize.

    In terms of potentially destroying Oliver's legacy and even derailing his entire mission to the point Oliver was about to hang up the hood and he had actually disbanded the team for a spell -- Chase is in a class all his own. Nobody else came as close to ending Oliver's own journey than Chase.

    Other foes may have been more powerful or threatened greater numbers of civilians, but the methodical way Chase tore apart Oliver's psyche and GA's rep has no equal to date. He came this close to ending Oliver's entire journey.

    The Count was not one of my favourite Arrow villains; in fact I couldn't stand the dude (although fans like the actor who played him). I chalk it up to personal taste. I was more than okay with Arrow skewering him. Yeah, he saved Felicity but I was just glad the Count bit the dust.

    As for killing/not killing, I'm tired of the show dithering about where Oliver and Co. stand on it. If Team Arrow decides their code is: killing if necessary, but not necessarily killing ... then at least it's a position. They do need to settle on where they land on it in S6. If they still don't know -- after five years -- then we have to wonder if they learned anything after Lian Yu.

  6. #66
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    They do need to settle on where they land on it in S6. If they still don't know -- after five years -- then we have to wonder if they learned anything after Lian Yu.
    Agreed. I'm also optimistically looking forward to in Season Six an Oliver that keeps remembering to trust and rely on his team without having to be retaught that particular skill. One can dream.

  7. #67
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post

    As for killing/not killing, I'm tired of the show dithering about where Oliver and Co. stand on it. If Team Arrow decides their code is: killing if necessary, but not necessarily killing ... then at least it's a position. They do need to settle on where they land on it in S6. If they still don't know -- after five years -- then we have to wonder if they learned anything after Lian Yu.
    They won't settle on it because it's a writing crutch at this point, designed to make up for the lack of creativity on the writers' part. But to be honest, I'm done fretting over it. Oliver can kill as many people as he likes for all I care. After watching Supergirl advocate killing the Daxamites and then killing Rhea herself, I finally realized that these shows have no squeaky clean heroes anymore: Just killers and hypocrites. And if there comes a point in next season's crossover where Oliver is on the verge of killing someone and Kara gets self righteous about it, hopefully she'll get a kryptonite arrow on the leg.

    The funny thing in all this is that after the backlash Batman v Superman got for the dark nature of its 2 main characters, you had a lot of critics claim that the Berlanti-verse was where you were going to find morally responsible DC heroes. Preposterous.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I'll give you DD since his plan was to blow up the world, but Chase not only picked innocent people that had the misfortune to have the wrong letters in their name but he also terrorized public events. The throwing star killer was at least as dangerous and killed at least as many people as the Doll Maker
    Yes, but all of Chase's kills were for Oliver. He didn't seem to do it just for fun as the Doll Maker did. Chase didn't mind killing but as far as I recall he didn't have an uncontrolled urge to do it. We never learned why exactly Chase wanted Oliver to kill him, it seemed to have something to do with his father but if it had been just revenge he would have killed Oliver and been done with it.

    What I am trying to get at is that the motives and reasons to kill were different for Prometheus and the Doll maker. One wonders what Chase would have done if Oliver had been killed or killed himself? Probably just killed himself. But the Doll maker would never have stopped, because he had the uncontrolled urge to do what he did. That is why I consider the Doll maker to be the stronger threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    and while the Count put more in danger with his drugs, he probably killed less than Chase.
    The drugs were just a way to slowly torture someone to death. In any case, like with the Doll maker there was no way I can see to stop the Count. Would he have stopped if he won, inherited, or found billions of dollars and be rich? I still think Chase would have stopped if Oliver was dead because he was so focused on Oliver.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    And I think there is an argument that if Oliver had killed him when he first had the chance, Chase would never have gotten far enough along to cause many of the problems he did.
    Like with Darhk it is an interesting problem but difficult to solve. Roy would not have killed the policeman if Oliver had killed him the moment he realized Roy had the miracuru inside him.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Other foes may have been more powerful or threatened greater numbers of civilians, but the methodical way Chase tore apart Oliver's psyche and GA's rep has no equal to date. He came this close to ending Oliver's entire journey.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    The Count was not one of my favourite Arrow villains; in fact I couldn't stand the dude (although fans like the actor who played him). I chalk it up to personal taste. I was more than okay with Arrow skewering him. Yeah, he saved Felicity but I was just glad the Count bit the dust.
    It is an interesting self-analysing question to ask oneself "why?". I agree with you, but why? Why being okay with Oliver killing him, while saving Roy and Slade felt important? I think some aspects I mentioned in the last post, but that is probably not the end of the matter

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    As for killing/not killing, I'm tired of the show dithering about where Oliver and Co. stand on it. If Team Arrow decides their code is: killing if necessary, but not necessarily killing ... then at least it's a position.
    It is the position I would prefer for team Arrow. It suits the characters (even Lance came around as soon as Laurel was threatened) and the general tone of the series.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Agreed. I'm also optimistically looking forward to in Season Six an Oliver that keeps remembering to trust and rely on his team without having to be retaught that particular skill. One can dream.
    I think not trusting is too much integrated into Oliver's personality by now for that to happen. How often did it happen that someone he trusted turned around or was made to turn around ? I think that should prevent Oliver from ever trusting blindly again. To check even his team-mates for outer influence or inner problems that could influence their choices should stay with him. Everything else simply would not make any sense to me.

    And that includes Felicity. Felicity could also be influenced by a meta-human with telepathic abilities or a drug or whatever. And even after her ex-boyfriend the hacker turned evil she still thinks hacking is okay for everybody and no possible threat to anybody. That is hardly an opinion I would sign. I think it is right for Oliver to keep an eye on her and the rest of his team and not trust them blindly.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    They won't settle on it because it's a writing crutch at this point, designed to make up for the lack of creativity on the writers' part. But to be honest, I'm done fretting over it. Oliver can kill as many people as he likes for all I care. After watching Supergirl advocate killing the Daxamites and then killing Rhea herself, I finally realized that these shows have no squeaky clean heroes anymore: Just killers and hypocrites.
    I had the same problem with Smallville's Clark Kent. He was so angry if someone killed a human (say, Lex killed someone), but he had no trouble himself killing aliens, even his own people. His father Jonathan really did a messy job on him. I always felt sad for him.


    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    And if there comes a point in next season's crossover where Oliver is on the verge of killing someone and Kara gets self righteous about it, hopefully she'll get a kryptonite arrow on the leg.
    Ha! I would love that

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    And if there comes a point in next season's crossover where Oliver is on the verge of killing someone and Kara gets self righteous about it, hopefully she'll get a kryptonite arrow on the leg.

    The funny thing in all this is that after the backlash Batman v Superman got for the dark nature of its 2 main characters, you had a lot of critics claim that the Berlanti-verse was where you were going to find morally responsible DC heroes. Preposterous.
    I think it was on Flash, don't recall which season (Flash fans?), where Joe or somebody else was throwing shade at how Oliver did things, how he was a vigilante outside the law, etc. At this point, they are all outlaws. Yeah, no one is squeaky clean any longer in the Flarrowverse, SG included, and I think Oliver calling the lot of them out on their hypocrisy is long overdue. I hope he gets to tell them where they can stick their soapboxes one day.

    At best, they're morally fickle, and that's being generous. At worst, they're borderline or outright criminals whose abilities give them the hubris and license to behave in ways that are irresponsible and even dangerous considering their powers.

    Time to stock up on kryptonite arrowheads, Oliver. You may need them.

  13. #73
    Custom Title jon-el87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I think it was on Flash, don't recall which season (Flash fans?), where Joe or somebody else was throwing shade at how Oliver did things, how he was a vigilante outside the law, etc.
    Season 1, "Flash vs. Arrow". Joe and Harrison Wells/Eobard Thawne lecture Barry about how they don't share the brutal view the Arrow has on justice. The scene takes place at Star Labs. A place where they regularly lock up prisoners, without a fair trial. The prisoners are kept in complete isolation (usually seen as a psychologically damaging punishment) and aren't allowed out of their cells. Cells with no visible toilet, bed or shower and only the clothes they came in with. Imagine how badly Black Siren must've smelled, when Prometheus broke her out. For months, she's only had one leather outfit to wear and who knows how long it's been since she last showered.

  14. #74
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    Yes, but all of Chase's kills were for Oliver. He didn't seem to do it just for fun as the Doll Maker did. Chase didn't mind killing but as far as I recall he didn't have an uncontrolled urge to do it. We never learned why exactly Chase wanted Oliver to kill him, it seemed to have something to do with his father but if it had been just revenge he would have killed Oliver and been done with it.

    What I am trying to get at is that the motives and reasons to kill were different for Prometheus and the Doll maker. One wonders what Chase would have done if Oliver had been killed or killed himself? Probably just killed himself. But the Doll maker would never have stopped, because he had the uncontrolled urge to do what he did. That is why I consider the Doll maker to be the stronger threat.



    The drugs were just a way to slowly torture someone to death. In any case, like with the Doll maker there was no way I can see to stop the Count. Would he have stopped if he won, inherited, or found billions of dollars and be rich? I still think Chase would have stopped if Oliver was dead because he was so focused on Oliver.



    .
    See, I disagree. No one acts like Chase did without seriously being gone in the head and LIKING killing all on his own. Most of what he kept insisting was the "real" Oliver, was IMO him projecting. I have no reason to believe that had Oliver died, that Chase would have just killed himself or returned to being a "normal" citizen. Your father being killed does not turn "normal" people into monsters hell bent on revenge to the point where you would be willing to kill innocent people AND your own loved ones.

    That's crazy on a level I wouldn't expect from either the Count or the Dollmaker. Frankly, what Oliver told Chase probably was true. His dad probably was disowning him and trying to pretend that the this psycho was no relation of his. And if Oliver hadn't killed his father and provided him with that focus, I'm convinced he would have found some other excuse to go on a dark rampage. And if he'd lived, I'm sure he would have kept killing anyone the least bit associated with Oliver. Eventually he probably would have target the whole city since as Mayor, obviously Oliver cared for the whole city. So the punishment IMO would have just kept coming. Oliver was just the first excuse (assuming that Chase hadn't already been running around killing before that. As one of his father's henchmen, he probably already had.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    I think not trusting is too much integrated into Oliver's personality by now for that to happen. How often did it happen that someone he trusted turned around or was made to turn around ? I think that should prevent Oliver from ever trusting blindly again. To check even his team-mates for outer influence or inner problems that could influence their choices should stay with him. Everything else simply would not make any sense to me.

    And that includes Felicity. Felicity could also be influenced by a meta-human with telepathic abilities or a drug or whatever. And even after her ex-boyfriend the hacker turned evil she still thinks hacking is okay for everybody and no possible threat to anybody. That is hardly an opinion I would sign. I think it is right for Oliver to keep an eye on her and the rest of his team and not trust them blindly.
    It's not blind trust after five years. He knows his team. The newbies probably still have unknown elements about them, but they've proved themselves enough that Oliver should know that when bad stuff is going down, he not only doesn't have to go it alone, but that he shouldn't go it alone.

    Trusting people doesn't mean ignoring signs that they've been brainwashed and on a less weird level, it certainly doesn't mean always agreeing with them. No one is asking Oliver to stop thinking for himself, just if there's no reason to think they've been mind whammied, to keep trusting his team to be able to help in times of crisis.

    And having different opinions on topics such as if freeing a master hacker was a lesser evil than letting Chase continue on his rampage freely isn't a question of trust, it's opinion. And it turns out Oliver had very complex reasons for arriving at his opinion which did not actually include disagreeing about if he'd have made the same call if it had just been him involved.

    And hacking was never the problem in Felicity's hacktivist days, it was how her hacking was misused. Cooper did something really stupid and he got caught. Wasn't the hacking's fault, but Cooper's.

    Felicity has been using her hacking skills for the greater good now for five years and Oliver hasn't yet said, maybe you should stop hacking, so I don't think that's going to be a point of contention. He did ask her to unhack the mess made in Susan's life and there was that time in season one when the Huntress forced her to hack the FBI database, but again, no one is suggesting that since it can be misused, she stop.

    Even with Helix, where the lines are more murky, Felicity never blindly trusted Helix. She never shared Oliver's secrets with them even if Helix easily managed to figure everything out eventually. She had a quid pro quo agreement and if she thought the stakes were high enough -note she only gave them stuff in exchange for help with Chase stuff - she took the calculated risk to give Helix what they wanted.

    That's not blind trust and also note that Oliver kept saying he was fine with whatever she was doing to get that info. And the first time she found any evidence of Helix doing something wrong, she confronted Alena which is when the Chase offer was put on the table. (And if Oliver can be ok with working with the dude that killed his mother, Felicity shouldn't be judged for working with someone that accidentally killed someone.)

    And in the end, the calculated risk Felicity made almost paid off. Helix never screwed her over. That basis for her limited trust, was proved correct.

    And I bet after Oliver watched all of his friends and loved ones get blown up, (heck, even when they all just were kidnapped) he found time to wonder if he'd backed Felicity's plan rather than opposing it, would they have been able to find Chase before he trapped them in the bunker and went after William.

    He's lucky that even if the same thought occurs to Felicity, she's not likely to hold a grudge and stop trusting his judgement. It's a two way street after all. If his team comes out the other side of being blown up still trusting and putting their faith in Oliver, he should extend them the same courtesy.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 06-06-2017 at 09:10 AM.

  15. #75
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Time to stock up on kryptonite arrowheads, Oliver. You may need them.
    Which brings up an interesting question: does kryptonite exist in the Arrowverse earth? The only way earth would have chunks of the alien planet is if it was destroyed. So if the planet blew as scheduled, did little Kal-El also get sent? Is he on our earth and just hasn't announced himself to the world yet? Did he not make it here? Is he still a young farm boy in Kansas?

    Or did something happen in the Arrowverse universe that saved Krypton and he gets to live a happy life with his family?

    Also, even if bits of kryptonite do exist on earth, how would our team know to look for or identify them?

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