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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    It's amazing how many GA canon characters they've dropped the ball with over the years: Merlyn, Artemis, Arsenal, Speedy, Black Canary (the real one, not Tina)...

    Not that they should have followed the mythos verbatim, mind you. They should be telling their own story. But it's reached the point where you wonder if this show hates the source material it's supposed to represent.
    Well said. I mentioned recently on Twitter (just this morning in fact) that The Flash, while they're doing their own thing (that's Marc Guggenheim's big thing, that Arrow is doing its own thing) they also do their best to respect the source material with their storylines. Sure, some of it can come off bad, no denying that. But stuff like discovering the Multiverse, Flashpoint, Barry going into the Speed Force at the end of S3 and passing the mantle onto Wally, however temporarily... my LIMITED knowledge of the comics tells me those were all storylines that were in the comics at one point or another.

    Legends is really its own thing & Supergirl takes place in another part of the multiverse. But Arrow goes OUT OF ITS WAY to crap on the source material under the banner of "doing our own thing". Sure, I like the show, in some ways, but I ain't gonna ignore the crapfest, either.

    On another note: Evelyn's whole thing doesn't make sense. Sorry to those who say it does. Why do I say that?

    Her big thing is that Oliver was the Hood, aka a serial killer. She doesn't look at what kind of people he was taking down, just sees them as being 'lawyers, doctors, etc.' as she said in 5x06. So what does she do? Nothing much. Just joins a multi-cop killer and ACTUAL serial killer who targets innocent people. No, Evelyn's decision doesn't make sense no matter how you bend it. She's just the same little brat whose parents went along with Damien Darhk, and who nearly destroyed the legacy of the Black Canary by killing the mayor at the time while dressed as BC. Sure, Laurel wasn't perfect, but the one thing she did have over The Canary & The Arrow was that she had never killed while wearing the mask, and she felt guilty whenever she flubbed. Evelyn did none of those things.

    Evelyn didn't join Adrian because Oliver's a serial killer. She joined him because, at best, she's a weak-willed toadie and at worst, because she's as unhinged and psychopathic as he is because of what happened to her parents. She didn't have a good reason for joining Prometheus. She just used Oliver's past as the Hood to justify it.

    But, to be fair, the oh-so-holy OTA could have maybe revealed who all Oliver actually killed and what they did. I remember Season 1 pretty good. . . and Oliver mainly killed the guards wielding automatic weapons while he had a bow & arrow and people who had done serious harm to the city: Leo Mueller, 1x05, was going to sell military-grade weapons to STREET gangs; Justin Claybourne, we now know, was probably one of those Oliver took down in between 1x08 & 1x09, and I don't know about everyone else, but if I found out that someone was making people sick and then jacking up the price on a treatment (if I remember the 5x09 flashbacks correctly), I'd probably do the same as Oliver, but also get the treatment and distribute it through a free clinic somewhere; 1x16 Jose Barerra, a hitman, though I'm sure if Oliver knew Malcolm was behind the Undertaking he'd have let him or Deadshot deal with Malcolm; 1x19, the doctor who was manufacturing a new strain of Vertigo knew Oliver's identity and would expose him; and from 1x20, Mr. Blank, the hitman, would have killed Oliver, Laurel, Tommy, & a little boy.

    The remainder of Oliver's kills (which as of 1x21 or 22 was listed by Quentin Lance as 26) were hired thugs with automatic weapons while he was either unarmed or had a bow & arrow.

    But sure, Oliver is worse than Chase because he killed 26 bad guys and left dozens more white collar criminals live to face justice in a court of law instead of killing housewives and cops like Chase did.

  2. #32
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    I dont think it was bad or lazy writing. With Evylin I got her motives no problem. Susan Williams just turned out to be a journalist investigating the mayors office. She started dating Oliver as a means to an end. She then develiped actual feeling for him and when she found out the truth, decided to keep his secret. I think this plot was concluded but the fact Susan could find out Olivers secret and past so easily has implications for next season. Finally GA was a public enemy, but once Chase was exposed it became clear he was really at fault. GA caught him and public perception changed.

    Overall I had no issues with the writing this season.
    I agree with the others, that Artemis was a mess. By the end, she seemed unhinged in her blind devotion to Chase, something truly unearned since it looks like he intended for her and the rest of his groupies to die as well. She might have had good enough reasons to quit the team or stop believing in Oliver, but that her response was to join leagues with someone WORSE just to get revenge because Oliver isn't big on full disclosure never made sense. But then she also at first blamed him for her parent's dying after they decided to devote themselves to DD when Oliver didn't even know they existed. So maybe she always was supposed to be unhinged. Beyond that, she was barely a character, with nearly all her development happening off screen. Never saw her learn how to use the bow, never knew why they called her Artemis, never even knew where she lived or how she got food to eat. And if we never know for sure what happened to her on the island, oh well.

    Susan was also a mess. And if the intent was to say that after getting to know Oliver and sleeping with him her feelings changed her mind over what she planned to do with what she was digging up and learning about him, then why did the show show her meeting with her investigator AFTER the post coital snuggle? I tend to think they were going to do something more with her character than never panned out. There were even interviews that said that part of the reason that Susan was kidnapped was because she was a reporter, but I never anything important about her being a reporter after Thea moved to discredit her.

    I can't help but think early on the plan was to out Oliver as the Green Arrow and to use her info as the proof. They probably would have spun it as she was forced or tricked (so as to not make Oliver look stupid for trusting her even though he still did since he had no good reason to think the reporter Thea hated and warned him against that was investigating his office COULD be trusted). That said, I have no problem never hearing from Susan Williams again. Really, Artemis as well. Let them stay dropped plot points.

  3. #33
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Artemis would be the one who basically borrowed the label of a "canon" character but was essentially a whole other character. Speedy, BC, Arsenal and Merlyn may have begun with more canonical elements (and I'll give them a point for actually giving Roy an addiction subplot like his comics counterpart) but they too became their own characters after a few years.

    They have to balance giving a nod to their comics origins and trying to keep the story new or fresh. They tried balancing it with Roy and Laurel, with middling effect. They started really late with Thea, I don't know how canonical she really was S1-2, other than her offscreen archery trophies.
    It's not so much that they got their own elements that bugs me. It's the fact that while they are relevant GA canon characters, a show that's supposed to be about the GA didn't do justice by them and now they are all afterthoughts. Thea had a good mini arc during seasons 3 and 4 when she finally became Speedy, only for her to abandon it this season and turn emo for its latter half. Black Canary...no need for me to repeat how they screwed her up. Merlyn, someone who should have been Oliver's main antagonist over the course of the show, became a joke in the last 3 years and was ultimately and mercifully killed off. Roy is the one I can cut them some slack about because he was written fairly well until Colton exited the show. In his case my main complaint is why they didn't try harder to keep him around. Or to at least bring him back more regularly than they have.

    As criticized as seasons 3 and 4 were, at least Team Arrow took a good shape during those years and actually felt somewhat canonical. Even when Roy left, Speedy and Black Canary were part of it. And of course Diggle and Felicity were around as well, but I didn't mind that. The team shouldn't have been excluside to canon characters, anyway. The problem arose when they killed off BC, had Speedy retired and then filled the team with a bunch of random to the mythos characters: Ragman, Wild Dogg, Mr Terrific, a fake Artemis and Tina.

    I am not a big fan of comic books and I probably must have read 20-25 in my lifetime, but Arrow's disdain for its source material just puzzles me. Even their current Black Canary feels more like a sarcastic attempt to line up with the comics after all the criticism they got for killing off the real one.

    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I think with Artemis they basically didn't bother trying to balance it any more. If I were to play devil's advocate, she was likely the unlucky one who got the short straw re: development on a bloated team roster. They gave her character an Artemis label, and that's it.
    I think the plan with her was similar to Wild Dog and Curtis: She would have an original name, but ultimately become a version of the canon character she was actually representing. And then they just got lazy with her and had her join Prometheus. For me the problem here is this. Arrow taking liberties with random canon characters (like Prometheus, Vigilante, Mr Terrific, Wild Dog, etc) is one thing. But they should have been more careful with the characters that are byproducts of the GA canon itself. Like Artemis.
    Last edited by costas22; 06-01-2017 at 01:43 AM.

  4. #34
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    Well said. I mentioned recently on Twitter (just this morning in fact) that The Flash, while they're doing their own thing (that's Marc Guggenheim's big thing, that Arrow is doing its own thing) they also do their best to respect the source material with their storylines. Sure, some of it can come off bad, no denying that. But stuff like discovering the Multiverse, Flashpoint, Barry going into the Speed Force at the end of S3 and passing the mantle onto Wally, however temporarily... my LIMITED knowledge of the comics tells me those were all storylines that were in the comics at one point or another.
    Agreed. And I would add that Flashpoint as a storyline didn't get heavily criticized because it didn't look anything like the comics' storyline, but because it was simply poorly handled. But at least in theory, their heart was in the right place: Use something from the comics as a stepping stone and then give it its own spin. You didn't get a sense of contempt from the writers about the source material. Nor a sense of arrogance that they can do a better job with these characters and storylines that the people who have spent decades writing for them.

    It's not like we are discovering the wheel with these observations either. Guggenheim has spoken out against the canon in the past. He's not shy about it. Of course he doesn't mind the guaranteed audience the canon brings along...

    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    On another note: Evelyn's whole thing doesn't make sense. Sorry to those who say it does. Why do I say that?
    I am going with your worst case scenario. It's the best way to rationalize her actions. She was so far gone that she didn't realize how hypocritical she was. For me, Evelyn is a shallow one dimensional psycho who hopefully met her end on the island. There's no reason to keep trying with her, unless they have her become Black Siren's sidekick or something. I sure hope they don't try to redeem her.

  5. #35
    The Force is Strong!!! darkphoenix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    It's amazing how many GA canon characters they've dropped the ball with over the years: Merlyn, Artemis, Arsenal, Speedy, Black Canary (the real one, not Tina)...

    Not that they should have followed the mythos verbatim, mind you. They should be telling their own story. But it's reached the point where you wonder if this show hates the source material it's supposed to represent.
    What is the mythos surrounding GA (like I've said many times before, I've never read a comic book of any kind and so my basic knowledge of these characters came from the animated series' and Smallville) What are the major events that made the character who he became? I've always just thought GA was just a throw away character because like in Smallville, they couldn't get Batman.

  6. #36
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    GA in the comics was from what I understand, a much more quippy character to start with. Far more good natured. BC was the serious one (and the much better fighter)

    He was really interested in the street level justice for the little guy and at some point in his run, he was became an out spoken crusader for a lot of causes that some would call left wing. In the Justice League animated series Batman brought him in to help keep them honest and accountable for their actions.

    Basically, the one in the comics might have had all the same toys as Batman, (planes, boats, motorcycles, trick gadgets aka arrows, Arrowcave) but his personality was nothing like Batman. But Arrow was far more based on Batman than the comic origins when it comes to personality. The backstory with the island is close to his comic origins though.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 06-01-2017 at 06:59 PM.

  7. #37
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Oliver's island flashback adventures are uniquely GA comics-influenced. If there was a season that was closest to "canon" GA it would be S1, as it's similar to GA from the 80s Longbow Hunters-era.

    They've long said that Batman and the TDK trilogy had influence on the series. As a Batman fan I don't mind it as much, though after five years they borrow more from Bats than they should (Ra's Al Ghul being an example of using a foe too closely linked to Batman). It becomes problematic if/when TV fans see all the Batman influences and maybe expect or assume Batman traits to be also GA traits.

    While Batman's is pretty clear re: killing foes -- he won't kill -- GA's code is not as clear-cut. In the Longbow Hunters era he would kill the bad guys if needed, though he didn't enjoy it. Even though Arrow borrows a lot from Batman, Batman's no-kill rule isn't one of them.

    Same thing with guns: Batman can use guns, is actually quite efficient with them, but he chooses not to use them on principle. GA on the other hand has no such restrictions and the show has made a point of showing that Oliver can use guns and is not above resorting to using them on occasion.

    TV Oliver's reluctance to rely on or confide in teammates and tendency to go it alone is, sadly, something that seems straight out of Batman's playbook. And yes, these Batman traits frustrate the heck out of the Bat family (and the JL!) too.

    While GA in various comics incarnations is more light-hearted and quippy and doing the social justice thing long before it became trendy (e.g. while some fans didn't like the gun control ep., this is exactly the sort of thing comics Oliver Queen would do, polls and politicking be damned) -- this side of GA isn't part of TV Oliver's DNA. Or they've paid lip service to it via Mayor Queen's actions, but that's about it.

    The gritty Longbow Hunters-era origins and TDK version of Batman is part of his DNA though and are embedded in him.

    Maybe the finale put to rest his identity crisis (I hope), and he will try to be less Batman and more GA next season. While I don't think they can rewrite the Arrow series' DNA entirely -- there will always be a shade of darkness around him, he shouldn't be like Flash or SG -- maybe they can actually draw from more GA influences instead of Batman next season.

  8. #38
    Nate nate-dog1701d's Avatar
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    I haven't read a ton of GA comics, but major events/traits I'm aware of:

    -Island
    -Romance with Black Canary
    -Cheating on Canary (but not with her sister)
    -Speedy/Roy Harper, the drug addict sidekick
    -Speedy/Mia Dearden, the HIV-positive sidekick
    -Traveling through America with Hal Jordan, which I think is what started his "liberal loudmouth" reputation
    -Merlyn, the arch enemy
    -Membership in the Justice League
    -Killing Prometheus (who was neither Adrian Chase nor anything like the one on the show)

  9. #39
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkphoenix21 View Post
    What is the mythos surrounding GA (like I've said many times before, I've never read a comic book of any kind and so my basic knowledge of these characters came from the animated series' and Smallville) What are the major events that made the character who he became? I've always just thought GA was just a throw away character because like in Smallville, they couldn't get Batman.
    My knowledge is limited as well, but I believe Nate's bullet points sum pretty much summed it up. I would only add his parents dying while he was at a young age (which probably is one of the key ties to Batman along with the rich playboy persona).

    If you have the Season 6 DVD of Smallville, there's an insightful documentary of the character. It's also on youtube, called "The Legend of the Emerald Archer".

  10. #40
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    One thing Ive never understood is how GA in comic cannon was quipy and more light hearted. His backstory of being stranded for 5 years does nothing to support these character traits. I always thought Oliver should be messed up when he came back to star city. His morales should be all a skewed. So when I heard that Arrow was going to be dark, gritty and more realistic, I was super stoked because it made perfect sense to me. And to that, the one season that was atrocious was the "Green Arrow" season. Among its many, many faults trying to be like the comics or more accurately trying to be like the networks version of Flash or even Supergirl was a big mistake. Its no coincidence that Ive really enjoyed season 5, as in addition to great acting, stunts and writing, the season was a close to the original conceipt for the show as we will ever get in a DCW shared universe.
    Last edited by 134sc; 06-02-2017 at 11:20 AM.

  11. #41
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    ^If you're referring to Oliver's "short-sleeved" era on the show, I think it was less an attempt to be more like comics GA and more like a miscalculated attempt to make Arrow more like cousins The Flash and Supergirl in tone.

    And it depends on which era of GA people are referring to. Arrow's roots are from his edgier era in the 70s-80s, and the show likely felt they could better mesh Batman elements into this version of GA. Other comics versions of GA gloss over his island experiences so they don't weigh on those Olivers as much as versions where the island exile is more definitive aka the Mike Grell era that inspired the show.

    Arrow's Oliver is rooted in the darker version, no retconning can change this. He can evolve, become a better human being but there should always be a cloud hangjng over him, thematically speaking. It may not define him as it did in S1 or S2 but it's a part of him. No need to make him more sunnyside up Flash or SG-like in his heroism because that sort of tone is not in the DNA of Arrow, hasn't been since Day 1.

    I'm sure the quippy side of him will come out when they reignite Olicity , as they try to copy the sassy banter between Oliver and Dinah in the comics. People forget that, when the show actually allowed her to, Laurel was quite sassy and snarky at times just like comics BC. YouTube is full of clips and montages that show this "canonical" side to her.

    But yeah, canon is a loaded term. We're safe if we're talking about the GA era that influenced the show (Grell/Longbow Hunters). It's a whole new can of worms when fans start citing this or that GA from other comics eras, SV, animated etc. as we all have our preferences.

    I just don't want this GA on Arrow to lose sight of his roots. S5 was a good sign they haven't yet. S6 needs to reinforce this, not forget it.

  12. #42
    Custom Title jon-el87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 134sc View Post
    His backstory of being stranded for 5 years does nothing to support these character traits.
    Pretty sure the 5 year period was an Arrowverse invention. In Secret Origins #38 (1989), Oliver is said to have been on the island for eleven weeks.

  13. #43
    Nate nate-dog1701d's Avatar
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    In Green Arrow: Year One, I believe he was on the island for a year.

    Regarding his parents' death, I want to say Smallville had the traditional version with them dying in a plane crash when he was a boy.

    Of course, current continuity has changed to be slightly more like the show. He was now on the island for years, though I haven't seen a specific number. They've also given him more family. Moira was still alive when he returned from the island (since deceased). Robert was alive until recently and apparently manipulated the whole island adventure. Oliver has a sister, Emiko, who is the child of Robert and Shado (haha).

  14. #44
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Oliver has a sister, Emiko, who is the child of Robert and Shado (haha).
    I Prefer this to Shado raping Oliver and having his son. Not to be confused with the surprise son he had with Sandra Hawk. Dude, birth control.

  15. #45
    Nate nate-dog1701d's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, I forgot about Connor. Who was Shado's son?

    I guess that makes "son by way of being raped" another similarity between Green Arrow and Batman.

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