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  1. #421
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Yeah it's Who Are You with the repeat button stuck.

    I'm with Black Siren, she shouldn't give one iota what E-1 Oliver, Felicity, Quentin think about her. They're not her family and friends. I'd be fine with BS using their misplaced feelings and blindsiding them in a total heel move ... but it looks like they're going for the feels. Lots of fans want a BS redemption arc, it seems like the CW typical play but I can't say it's something I want to see.

  2. #422
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    Yeah it's Who Are You with the repeat button stuck.

    I'm with Black Siren, she shouldn't give one iota what E-1 Oliver, Felicity, Quentin think about her. They're not her family and friends. I'd be fine with BS using their misplaced feelings and blindsiding them in a total heel move ... but it looks like they're going for the feels. Lots of fans want a BS redemption arc, it seems like the CW typical play but I can't say it's something I want to see.
    Why does everybody have to be redeemed now a days? This is one of the many reasons I'm looking forward to Netflix Marvel's Punisher series, Frank Castle is beyond redemption and he knows it as well as embraces it. Unlike Harley Quinn or Deathstroke he's also not a villian that occassionally does good, he's a hero that crosses the line by commiting murder to permanently remove criminals from the streets.

  3. #423
    Shockingly Bad Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    Redemption doesn't automatically mean turning into a goody two shoes though. She just isn't trying to kill the team (see Faith/Spike/Angel/Anya). Making her into an anti-hero would be the best route but some sort of redemption still has to take place for that to happen.

  4. #424
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    Redemption doesn't automatically mean turning into a goody two shoes though. She just isn't trying to kill the team (see Faith/Spike/Angel/Anya). Making her into an anti-hero would be the best route but some sort of redemption still has to take place for that to happen.
    Redemption is forgiveness for somebodies sins/crimes and the acceptance by oneself that what one did was wrong (usually does turn one into something of a “goodie two shoes“) not approval and/or forgiveness for ones past actions from ones peers/fans which is nothing more than others accepting bad behavior because they like a person or “understand“ them. Then you go one further and look to turn a villian into an anti-hero. Black Siren, regardless of how much anyone likes her, is a villian and not a hero. Her actions have always been self serving with no benefit to society, completely unlike any true anti-hero (and no I refuse to accept a modern defination that allows a redeemed, under your definition of redemption, villian to suddenly be called an anti-hero because NOW they're doing good. I wouldn't even accept that title of somebody that was redeemed under my definition of the term, they'd then be a hero). An anti-hero isn't somebody that helps society sometimes and then hurts society othertimes on a whim, an anti-hero always helps society but knowingly and willfully breaks the law in doing so.

    You're looking for Black Siren to become the new Malcolm Merlyn on Arrow, somebody viewers like and can somewhat sympathize with yet still hate because she's still, for the most part, working against the team. Merlyn never had a redemption arc, he had a sympathy arc so viewers could care for him instead of wanting to see him dead/behind bars each time he appeared on screen.
    Last edited by DoubleDevil; 10-04-2017 at 10:41 PM.

  5. #425
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    According to the producers this season every Team Arrow member will have their own antagonist and Black Siren appears to be the one for Black Canary. I don't think there's going to a redemption arc and there's no reason for it. They can't even make her an anti-hero because with the exception of Curtis, all Team Arrow members are already murderers and anti-heroes anyway. At the same time, they want to cement Tina as the new Black Canary and turning Black Siren towards the "good side" would step on Tina's toes.

    I just hope they come up with a decent storyline for Black Siren, in which she's something better than the big bad's lackey.
    Last edited by costas22; 10-05-2017 at 02:09 AM.

  6. #426
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    Finally some official crossover spoilers, but probably not what anybody here was hoping for:

    http://www.tvguide.com/news/arrow-fo...ag=TVG_Twitter
    Last edited by shadow08; 10-05-2017 at 06:59 AM.

  7. #427
    The Force is Strong!!! darkphoenix21's Avatar
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    In a TVLine interview, Stephen Amell reflects on the Adrian Chase arc as well as reflects on how S6 has a maturity level that he’s very proud of...

    http://tvline.com/2017/10/05/arrow-s...view-season-6/

  8. #428
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    A new EW interview with Uncle Guggie:

    http://ew.com/tv/2017/10/05/arrow-season-6-spoilers/

    As of now, it looks like there won't be any Earth-2/Black Siren flashbacks.

  9. #429
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    According to the producers this season every Team Arrow member will have their own antagonist and Black Siren appears to be the one for Black Canary. I don't think there's going to a redemption arc and there's no reason for it. They can't even make her an anti-hero because with the exception of Curtis, all Team Arrow members are already murderers and anti-heroes anyway. At the same time, they want to cement Tina as the new Black Canary and turning Black Siren towards the "good side" would step on Tina's toes.

    I just hope they come up with a decent storyline for Black Siren, in which she's something better than the big bad's lackey.

    Well first off, they need to feature Tina a lot more and for her to do a lot more to earn the Black Canary name. They can say all the right things,but we have to see it, first. She was pretty much floating around last half season and yet, you had father Lance saying how she is the Black Canary without doing much of anything. Honestly, I lost hope that Black Siren will be redeemed...unless there's a shocker and Tina dies at the end of season 6 but at this point the most I can hope for is that they give KC's Black Siren good material to work with it and at same time, put Tina over in a way that doesn't make Black Siren look like a weakling.

  10. #430
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    In S6 they do have to "show" us that Dinah has the mettle to hold the BC mantle. I agree that the little we did see of her in S5 was people merely "telling" us that she is ready to be BC.

    Black Siren's job is most likely to, as you put it accurately, to put the latest BC over. There's an actual term for that in pro wrestling, for the uninitiated. A "jobber": one who routinely loses matches, usually to make a rookie or newcomer look better in order to raise/advance their profile. The negative connotation is that jobbers are made to lose, so that somebody else looks better in comparison.

    However, there are jobbers that do great work in getting the job done aka pushing lower-profile characters into the next level or higher status. The question that remains is that the beneficiary of the jobber's losing efforts has got to look like they deserve the push and is worthy, or at least potentially worthy, to move to the next level.

    Back to Arrow: It all goes back to Dinah needing to step up, earn her keep, etc. -- but it would be nice if Black Siren is doing more than jobber duty and actually gets to be (my bias here) an unapologetic heel in her own right.

    Or even better -- milks that redemption nonsense and plays it to the hilt ... only to pull a proverbial 'Montreal Screwjob' on the whole Team Arrow. In essence, a heel-worthy blindside.

    (You'll have to read up and do some homework to know the whole context of the 'Montreal incident' in WWF/WWE lore.)

  11. #431
    Posting Pro DoubleDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    In S6 they do have to "show" us that Dinah has the mettle to hold the BC mantle. I agree that the little we did see of her in S5 was people merely "telling" us that she is ready to be BC.

    Black Siren's job is most likely to, as you put it accurately, to put the latest BC over. There's an actual term for that in pro wrestling, for the uninitiated. A "jobber": one who routinely loses matches, usually to make a rookie or newcomer look better in order to raise/advance their profile. The negative connotation is that jobbers are made to lose, so that somebody else looks better in comparison.

    However, there are jobbers that do great work in getting the job done aka pushing lower-profile characters into the next level or higher status. The question that remains is that the beneficiary of the jobber's losing efforts has got to look like they deserve the push and is worthy, or at least potentially worthy, to move to the next level.

    Back to Arrow: It all goes back to Dinah needing to step up, earn her keep, etc. -- but it would be nice if Black Siren is doing more than jobber duty and actually gets to be (my bias here) an unapologetic heel in her own right.

    Or even better -- milks that redemption nonsense and plays it to the hilt ... only to pull a proverbial 'Montreal Screwjob' on the whole Team Arrow. In essence, a heel-worthy blindside.

    (You'll have to read up and do some homework to know the whole context of the 'Montreal incident' in WWF/WWE lore.)
    I agree, Katie Cassidy does derserve some very good story arc to “redeem“ herself to some viewers and playing on the heartstrings of Oliver by letting him think she can be redeemed is a good way to do that. It's just a bit repetitive to me seeing we had something similar with Malcolm Merlyn who pretty much overstayed his welcome.

  12. #432
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, Malcolm's best before date expired long before he ever joined the Legion of Doom. I'd even argue that his becoming Thea's dad and, later, Ra's were various means to extend his warranty as a relevant character on Arrow. He kind of stopped being intriguing when that happened.

    I feel the show wanted to have their cake and eat it re: Malcolm. Have him as a villain -- but as a "likeable" villain. They couldn't make him a full heel (they should have IMO), and I think his being revealed as Thea's dad pretty much ensured that we weren't going to get a fully diabolical villain out of him. Which is, in hindsight, unfortunate.

    E-2 Laurel taking the team's misplaced sympathy and skewering them with it -without pity or regret- would be a way they could break the mould here, give it a different spin and not pull a 'Malcolm redemption arc 2.0'. But I am bracing myself for some variation of what they did with Malcolm.

  13. #433
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    PresidentLuthor, Black Siren has to be something far better than a jobber. Being a jobber means getting punched out by freaking Felicity. Black Siren should be a monster heel. Meaning she has to be a villain who destroys everyone and everything in her path until she's eventually vanquished by the babyface (Black Canary). That's the best way to make Tina look strong, so that people will buy into her as the new Black Canary. If Tina defeats someone who's already prone to getting her butt handed to her, then that means nothing as far as Tina's Black Canary credentials are concerned. Of course, like TheSecretVampire said, they also have a lot of work to do in terms of making the audience care for a nobody who just dropped out of nowhere like Tina, but that's another story. Also, they should make Black Siren's Canary Cry effective again. Because her Cry went from destroying buildings on the Flash to simply annoying people on Arrow.

  14. #434
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    They want Black Siren to be a jobber, but to put Dinah over, she really should be a total heel. Yeah, no switching back to babyface mode aka redeeming her and trying to walk back 11:59, which I fear some fans want to get out of a heel to babyface arc for E2 Laurel. The CW wants that; I want a PPV level blindside.

  15. #435
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    To be fair, we shouldn't expect a CW show to deliver a proper wrestling heel story when wrestling itself is failing in that regard as of late. The irony is that wrestling's best heel in recent years is someone who became hated because he was shoved down the viewer's throat a a good guy despite his limitations. And it's exactly the same problem that Arrow faced with Felicity...

    Oh well. I guess that's probably it for me. I've decided to pass on all 4 DCCW shows this season. Been thinking about it all summer and the spoilers about the crossover made up my mind. Maybe I am a bit too jaded, but there's no point in sticking around and hoping things improve. Berlanti and co have made up their mind on what direction they want to go and that's fine. It's just not for me. Hope those of you that continue watching enjoy the Arrowverse.
    Last edited by costas22; 10-07-2017 at 04:29 AM.

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