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It's a season finale, so surely some people will be around for THIS, right?
You know the drill. Count down, talk live, etc.
Pics:
You know the drill. Count down, talk live, etc.
Pics:
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Bobby!!!!! -
I wonder if this Earth is one where Bobby never broke his deal with Crowley because Gavin's hatred of Crowley did not exist in the events of Weekend At Bobby's as a result of Gavin being sent to the present by Abbadon.Comment
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I guess not. They have yet to explain that huge plothole. RIP Crowley, I'm gonna miss him.Comment
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I am seriously pissed.....Comment
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Damn, Cas & Crowley are both dead. Unless Chuck or that kid resurrect them, I guess they're done and that kid seems anything but good from what they showed. If he is good, then I don't see why he couldn't resurrect his own mother (Kelly). It wouldn't shock me if Cas stays dead since it seems they've been having issues keeping him in the plot. Then again so much of the mostly disappointing plot this season involved the British Men of Letters which his character didn't fit with. Then again I don't see how they will deal with angel/nephilim stuff in the plot without Cas since he is the tie-in to all of that.
Also, as bad as that other world looked, it didn't seem like their Lucifer had been released there. So with the main SPN Earth's Lucifer out & about who knows how much worse things will get and if the humans there will try to work the spell to send Lucifer back to the main Earth. The Crowley of that world may still be alive too. Who knows maybe that Earth will have a 2 Lucifer apocalypse.
I really have no clue what the hell's gonna happen next season so this will be very interesting. All I know is that there's no way this show will end without Michael & Adam being released from the cage and it's going to take some major **** to get them out. If this kid is evil, then I can see that happening and maybe Season 13 will be the final one. If not I honestly don't know what they will do regarding a main villain unless Lucifer will be free early on. I really want the devil himself & perhaps even Michael too (if Michael is now evil after everything he believed in failed to happen as a result of the events in Swan Song) to be the final enemy(ies) of the show and not this kid. Nobody should be a bigger villain than the devil himself and perhaps his older & more powerful brother in addition to him. I hated that stupid Darkness crap of season 11 because a stupid made up villain ended up making perhaps the most significant religion-based adversary there is looking pathetically weak. Kripke would've never done that and specifically made monsters and angels & demons from actual religions, mythology & lore as the supernatural characters in his show because he knew the impact they would have
I never bought into or liked how a nephilim or cambion in this show are shown to be stronger than angels or demons when they are hybrids and their powers should be diluted compared to actual angels & demons. I think Kripke himself regretted the power he gave Jesse which is why we never saw him for the remainder of season 5 and not even those taking over the show after he left brought him back since. If they end up making him stronger than Lucifer himself, then that will be extremely stupid and I won't have anything else to say. The fact that he already tore a hole through space and time seems to make this almost a certainty.
I would've much rather seen the cosmic consequences of Cas breaking the blood deal the Winchesters made with Billie ending up being Lucifer killing his own son and absorbing his powers to finally return to the power level he had in season 5 & perhaps beyond. I don't even think what happened in the finale tonight qualifies as "cosmic consequences" for breaking the blood pact since all of that would happen regardless. If this nephilim kid does turn out being good, then perhaps the consequences will spawn whatever threat they will face next.
I think the cosmic consequences should be something huge where the entire natural order is affected as such was the case many times when things involving Death and reapers happened, like Dean letting people live who should've died when he was Death for a day or Atropos (Fate) starting to kill the Titanic survivors that Balthazar saved. Or what they said back in season 11 would happen if the Darkness would be killed (it would affect the balance between dark & light). When I saw Cas killing Billie, I initially expected Cas to become the new Death, and it's possible he will be resurrected as such. I hope they don't drop the ball with however they handle that. I already think the fact that they sent Lucifer to a universe he was never meant to be sent in itself should tip the scales of good & evil and the natural order. He was meant to either be in Heaven (as he was before he rebelled), on Earth, or in the cage, all of which are tied to the universe of the main Earth. This other Earth (which would have its own Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, etc) has its own Lucifer so the act of sending him there should cause even further cosmic consequences.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Earth we saw in this episode is one that the Darkness created in her own universe after Chuck showed her since she seemed to want a legacy like Chuck had. Both Chuck & Amara are beings who exist in multiple dimensions. If either of them is killed at any time, I'm guessing it would be like they never existed since they are beyond time unlike humans, angels, etc. who are here today & gone tomorrow or end up in specific places when they die (humans in Heaven/Hell, monsters in purgatory, angels & demons who knows where...). I think that is why they said that the Earth could not survive if Chuck was killed last season (because he would have never existed to create it). So if Chuck and Amara went back in time and he taught her how to create her own universe, her Earth would have the same age as the main one. And since Chuck was about light & order and Amara was about darkness and chaos, the chaotic environment of the Earth we saw would fall in line with Amara & her tendencies. I'm guessing we haven;t seen the last of Chuck or Amara and we will find out what they have been up to somewhere down the line. Whether I'm right about this remains to be seen. But I do think Amara will create her own life forms and we may see them as enemies or allies some day in the show. I'm guessing in her world demons would probably be associated with light while angels would be like black fog. Or maybe the celestials in her world won't even be angels but something entirely new (if that Earth we saw isn't hers).Last edited by xrayvision; 05-18-2017, 08:00 PM.Comment
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So Cas and Crowley are dead, but we get Scooby Doo? Um....not a happy camper.Comment
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Dude, it's like DBZ, the more human/less saijan you have in you, the stronger you are lol. But ultimately, they have to make Goku the strongest because he's the main character.
I'm really surprised both Cas and Crowley are gone, but I think it was a long time coming for both of them. If the kid is as powerful as they say, I'm sure he could rip open another portal to that other reality if he so chose. Really excited to see what happens next season. I would love to see Michael/Adam return, since they are the only ones from the Kripke days to have a comeback. Maybe Michael/Adam will be the only ones who know to fight the super nephilim?
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This isn't DBZ, it's Supernatural. I never watched that show and whatever happens in it doesn't apply to Supernatural. Maybe the writers are doing similar things but the way it's written so far is just bad writing where they just spew out a bunch of crap & we're expected to swallow it like a lot of this show has become compared to the early seasons. This show is still good considering it's going to turn 12 years old in the fall, but the writing is a far cry from the Kripke days.
It just doesn't make sense how the hell a being with a diluted bloodline/DNA/etc is stronger than the non-human pure species/class of being from which it was spawned. Does the nephilim have to ability to tap into not only the power of its grace but also its own soul unlike angels do with the soul of their vessel? This issue was never answered or explained. Instead we're expected to swallow it without any details. If this is the case, why would the nephilim be able to tap into the power of its own soul when no other being can? Shouldn't humans in Supernatural be able to do that as well? Or maybe learn how? That would certainly elevate them in the power ranks. Or is it that the nephilim can do to itself what Cas did with/to Bobby when he used the power of Bobby's soul to bring Sam & Dean back from the 1800's when they went there to get phoenix ash? Wouldn't that weaken a part of him down like it did to Bobby? Sure his angel grace could compensate, but overall it should weaken him. Maybe that will be the key to his defeat.
All this is a moot point anyway since these writers don't give a crap and will do whatever they want no matter how ridiculous the nonsense they expect us to believe is. I may have come up with a decent explanation of the nephilim's power, but it's all speculation unless the writers give a crap about explaining it. And regardless, I think it's stupid to have the devil's kid be a bigger threat than the devil himself if that's what they end up doing.Comment
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I like Cas & Crowley but there is no requirement for them being in the show. I hope they get resurrected, but I hope they also are returned to being recurring characters and not mains. The show got bogged down with so many "hangers on" and I really got sick of the way the episodes barely focused on Sam & Dean, who should be the only mains as Kripke intended. The show needs to go back to its primary focus on the Winchester brothers and use more episode time to develop the characters they help like earlier seasons did, which is why some of the best characters who fans care about most came from those seasons, instead of using so much time to give hanger on characters a plot just to keep them involved. I liked Bobby more than Cas or Crowley and they haven't brought him back permanently and I remember when they killed him the talk here was that anyone who was not Sam or Dean was fair game to be killed off and I was fine with that. But since then they started pigeonholing characters like Rowena, Cas, Crowley, Mary, etc in so many episodes for fan service which resulted in the plot getting dragged in directions it shouldn't have gone & too many crappy filler episodes. I'm fine with some of those characters (Cas, Crowley & Mary) if they're used on an as-needed basis and if the plots that require them involve the Winchesters and make the show interesting, but I won't accept keeping Bobby dead while other characters who have nowhere near the bond & history he had with the boys are kept around. Bobby was part of the human element (the protagonists) of the show which is what Kripke stressed so much when he made this show (humanity's triumph over the other more powerful beings trying to impose their will on humans) and he worked very well with Sam & Dean. He investigated with them, did research on how to kill new beings they never dealt with before, and was like a 3rd Winchester. They didn't have to tear Sam & Dean down to build him up, though he did help them with their family problems at times (like when they started fighting thanks to the Trickster or when the siren messed with them & made them almost kill each other). Unfortunately this is not the way they built Mary back up as a hunter since her return, which usually happened at the expense of Sam & Dean being made to look like they can't take care of themselves after all the crap they've been through. Also, Cas & Crowley make a lot of stuff a lot easier for the Winchesters than they should be. Like fighting demons, hellhounds, angels, etc. I miss the days when the Winchesters worked their butts off to kill demons and when demons were actually threatening. And how they actually cared about the innocent people demons and evil angels took as vessels. All of that conflict between the Sam & Dean about what deserved to die and what doesn't and the regrets of killing possessed people gave me an appreciation of the show when it started that I sorely miss. Unfortunately all that has been long gone. As much crap that Meg the demon put them through in season 1, I'm sure everyone felt bad for Meg Masters after the demon was exorcised and she was seen dying. Sam & Dean having grief over things like that made them more human then compared to the killing machines they've become. I mean sure they do what's needed, but the show could be written differently if they spent less time on characters who just take time away from scenes where they dispute how to handle demons/monsters and whether they deserve to die or not.
I didn't see any Scooby Doo tonight and don't have an idea what you're referring to, but what I do know is that Cas, Crowley, Rowena, Mary & Sam and Dean have become a "Scooby gang" which is exactly what this show doesn't need.Comment
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I'm just really still annoyed at how Cas and Crowley died. If they wanted to kill Cas off, they should have done it when he was stabbed by the sword. Dean had his moment with Cas saying goodbye, and it was a beautiful scene. He was a breath away from death when Crowley was able to reverse the spell of the sword...that would have made a more poignant death IMO....this episode, we have Lucifer killing him, Cas dropping the ground, Sam running off, and Dean looking into Heaven. How underwhelming. I am hoping Dean was praying to Chuck to fix him...again. While I don't think he is truly dead, as Cas has come back so many times before (hearing Naomi's comment in my head), it just wasn't done very well. Crowley? I love this character more than Bobby to be honest, but keep Crowley in the altverse with Lucifer, don't kill him.
Mary is the blood deal payment. We always knew she would die or go back or whatever. I think Dean's terribly powerful speech (Emmy performance by Jensen) made it clear that he would be okay if she was gone again. Dean needs Sam...he doesn't need this version of his mother, who he has grown to hate/love. So this should be IT for Mary....please.
And the Scooby Doo is the newly announced animated episode where the boys team up with Scooby Doo....I was 110% excited for this episode, until the finale kind of popped that balloon.Comment
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Yep. Underwhelming episode, really, especially as far as season finishers go.
Crowly's death was uber anti climactic. I was really hoping to see Rowena and him kill each other in an old fashioned stand off in a game of one-upsmiship for his throne and revenge. Instead Crowly turns into a full fledged good guy? Ick. Way to ruin a fun character, reminds me of how Star Trek: DS9 ruined a fun storyline in the Ferengi at the end of the show by turning them into a federation type species. Just no. That's not them and it's certainly NOT Crowly. Also, one of my favorite characters, Rowena, doesn't even get a proper death scene? You kill her off screen? Seriously? At least they could've given us a witchy show down between her and Lucifer before he offs her but noooo....
Cass's death, though equally as anti climactic, wasn't totally unexpected. I think it's been clear for a while now that the writers simply didn't know what to do with Angel characters anymore since season 8, especially so with Cass. They seriously diluted angels' abilities after the fall to the point of them being useless being healing, and Cass was simply lost as a character the whole time. I don't think the writers had a clear view of what they wanted to do with him so they said screw it and off him to make things easier.
Just over all very disappointing. The BMOL was a big let down, death scenes were lazily done, and it's a shame. Crowly and Rowena were really two of my favorite characters because they were fun as my Guilty Pleasures, something I agreed with Chuck on. This is the biggest let down I've had on TV in a long time.
I'm done with the show. It's sad to say good bye, but I think it's time to move on. I get why the CW wants to milk this cash cow sour, but they need to learn that sometimes less is more. Quality over quantity. Just saddens me that investing 12 years into this show leads to nothing. And now this show will simply drag on...to what? Get cancelled with out an ending? Thanks CW.
Fare thee well, Supernatural. You were a hell of a fun ride while you lasted. But this is my stop on The Road So Far.Comment
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I'm very disappointed that Cas and Crowley were killed.
To me they were the main reason for watching Supernatural because they added so much humour and interesting storylines. Such complex characters are rare on TV shows, and as much as I like Sam and Dean, the best stories and character developments happened with both Cas and Crowley due to the frenemy relationships and all the shades of grey.
After the first 4 seasons the "moster of the week" epsiodes became a bit boring and it was such a fresh new start to add an ongoing storyline aside from just vampires, werewolves, ghosts and pure evil demons. Once Cas and the angels appeared, things became huge.
I have always assumed that Crowley wasn't just evil and that there was more to him than just being a powerhungry demon.
I sincerely hope that both Cas and Crowley will be resurrected in season 13.
Chances are good that Cas returns since he promised to raise Jack, and depending on what Jack is up to he might snap Cas back to life.
Not sure about Crowley though. But then, Crowley made a deal with the Winchesters. He promised to seal the Gates of Hell and asked "do we have a deal?".
If I'm not mistaken, demons must abide by a deal. Given that Crowley had planned to kill himself he must have known that the deal can't be adhered to unless there was a way to somehow stand by it despite sacrificing himself.Comment
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Mary being the payment for breaking the blood deal would be a huge letdown. Billie said the consequences were on a cosmic scale and as much as I like Mary, I don't think even the mother of the Winchester brothers ending up in a parallel dimension should qualify as consequences on a cosmic scale. The nephilim's creation was set into motion before Cas ever broke the deal so if the writers give a crap (which these days they clearly don't like they used to during seasons 1-6 especially) then they would make it traceable to either Dean, Sam or Mary not dying that night when Billie came to collect. The problem with doing that though is that Sam & Dean haven't really done much since the nephilim's conception to be linked to consequences on a cosmic scale. They were mostly dealing with witches, hellhounds, and stuff not related to Lucifer or Kelly & the nephilim. Mary on the other hand who volunteered to die in place of Sam or Dean joined in with the British Men of Letters since the deal was broken and with Sam & Dean's help she ended up stealing the Colt from Ramiel. So we could say that if she never died, Sam & Dean would've never joined the British Men of Letters (they were opposed to that until Mary got them to consider it) and they would've never gotten the Colt back and the Alpha vamp would've never died. Their attack on the Men of Letters led them to finding out about Lucifer and Cas did steal the Colt on Dagon, which even though was unsuccessful did allow him to avoid death and get to Kelly before Dagon could stop him. So since the Colt wouldn't have been stolen from Ramiel if it wasn't for Sam, Dean & Mary all being alive after the breaking of the deal, the nephilim (Jack) being raised by Lucifer and Dagon would have been pretty much guaranteed since Cas wouldn't have had anything to protect him and ultimately get Kelly away from Dagon & cause her death. So if the Fate Sisters will be involved in fixing the breaking of the deal, they could break Lucifer free to make things as they were intended to be since the Fate Sisters, reapers and angels are all agents of fate as Cas said many seasons ago about angels. The Fate Sisters have their book with golden pages that tell them what, when and things are supposed to happen to everyone as we saw in My Heart Will Go On. Reapers and Death were agents of fate in that they knew when people were supposed to die and made sure they were reaped as per the natural order. Angels with their time travel abilities & their knowledge of the future (thanks to prophets and the control they had in ensuring destiny especially prior to season 6) were also making sure that things happened as per the grand plan. So a bunch of these agents could be forced to making sure that events as they would've happened had any one of the 3 Winchesters died would happen regardless of what ended up happening.
I say this especially if Jack will end up not being a villain because then who or what will be season 13's main villain? Something has to step up and fill the void of evil/darkness. The greatest evil in the universe (Lucifer) got trapped in another universe so that light/dark balance spoken about in the season 11 finale should create another evil or cause the return of Lucifer to restore the equilibrium.
Maybe the absence of Cas (who broke the deal) from raising Jack due to his death will cause Jack to be evil and that will be the repayment of the broken blood deal. Therefore the future Cas saw will be void and instead will be full of horrors.Comment
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