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  1. #1
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    Loved It? Hated It? What did you think of "Honor Thy Fathers?"

    What did you think?

  2. #2
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    I think I would have a higher opinion of this episode if I wasn't judging it after two really great episodes in a row. We're back to something much more formulaic. The flashbacks return and while I love Anatoly and he and Oliver chatting was amusing, it really was just filler, moving Oliver from point A to point B.

    I love having Thea back but wasn't a fan of having Oliver agonize over if his father could be a killer when Oliver had been right there when his dad shot the other guy in the life boat. So Robert covering up an accident shouldn't by comparison have been so shocking.

    I wish his big concern was over if he should try to hide the truth to preserve his father's good name or let the truth come out. They kind of touched on that but I think that would have made for a more realistic dilemma than whether Robert Queen had ever killed a guy.

    But again, I did love having Thea back and she and Oliver had some great scenes and I was moved when she was watching the video her Dad left her. Also loved the contrast between a video from ten years ago when Robert called Thea the stronger of the two and the present where it's Oliver's sharing his strength with Thea. He's grown so much.

    Rene still needs smacking. You think you'd get your kid back without them asking you questions? And you would rather let her think you don't want her than talk about things that she probably already thinks about every single day of her life? Rene is not very bright.

    I'm sure he was kidnapped rather than just skipped out on the court date, but that he WANTED to not show up isn't something I'm likely to forget. Also makes me worry all this time spent on him getting his kid back could mean that we'll get stuck with William next season as well. That Zoe and William are pretty much the same age hasn't been lost on me. I'll try to save that concern for next season though.

    Rene may still be a dud but Lance was great in this episode. His snark was on fire. Wish he would be allowed to interact with more of the rest of the cast.

    Chase's booby trap was really over the top, lol. Especially since he didn't really want it to succeed.

    Curtis was back to being annoying.

    Welcome back shoulder touches! The ban on physical contact between Oliver and Felicity has been lifted!

    Enjoyed their heart to heart. Half pep talk/half kick in the pants. So nice to have their relationship feel like it's finally back to normal. And I was both surprised and moved that Felicity's way with words inspired Oliver to don the green suit again.

    Anyway. A serviceable enough episode. Moved the plot forward even if it wasn't that exciting.

    One thing though, I'm really over the over use of guns. Diggle, Rene, AND Dinah. (Did Curtis have a gun as well? I think I stopped paying attention.)

    And tranqs my arse. How can this show claim they use rubber bullets and tranq bullets when the stunt team sets off squibs with each impact of the bullet? So much gun play starts to make Oliver and his quiver full of arrows look silly.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 05-11-2017 at 08:41 PM.

  3. #3
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    There wasn't much Felicity like there was last week, which was a huge plus for me. Yeah, I'm not a Felicity fan and before anyone calls me out on that, please don't. We all have a character or characters that we hate/don't like .


    I have to say that I really enjoyed the return of Thea! I hope she's in more episodes than she was this season....in season 6. I really like the sister/brother bond she has with Oliver.

    Also, I'm starting to like Rene more and more and I'm guessing him not showing up to his daughter's case hearing was because Chase had something to do with....otherwise, what a waste for Rene not showing up.

    And Sampson proved to be worthless, again. I expect more fight out of someone who can't feel any pain, lol. Anarky would've been a better choice of villain in this episode....what ever happened to him? I remember him in a quick scene in episode 1 of this current season where Oliver defeated him and that's it. For someone who shattered Darhk's dreamworld last season and bested Team Arrow on a few occassions, you would think he might've gotten more importance this season unless the actor for that role got a better gig, elsewhere. Oh well.

  4. #4
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    I am glad we're back to focusing the Prometheus arc again, even though this was more of a stage-setting ep. I'm guessing the real fireworks will surface in the final two episodes. Chase is making them dance to his tune and I'm expecting the other shoe to drop very soon.

    The flashbacks essentially checked the boxes of 'How did Oliver learn how to fly a plane?' and how Deathstroke's mask ended up there. And it's a safe bet his Pilot hair is in that backpack, courtesy of Anatoly (who was great as usual). Kovar doesn't need any hype from me -- his mere presence bodes well for the remainder of the flashbacks.

    Sampson was largely a wasted cameo, barring some surprise appearance in the finale.

    I'm also enjoying the brewing bromance developing between Rene and Quentin. Rene's no-show at the custody hearing has to be due to Chase, because despite Rene's cold feet prior to the hearing it looked like Quentin had persuaded him to see it through. If Chase is involved, then I think we should be more worried that Quentin may be paying the ultimate price by season's end. I could totally see Quentin doing the death-and-glory thing to save him, with his motivation being that Rene lives to be a father to his little girl. TPTB did imply that bodies will be dropping by season's end, and Quentin has been on his ninth life for awhile.

    Rene is one of the newbies who have won me over as the season progressed. It wasn't immediate, and in the beginning he was a bit annoying. His appeal was a slow burn. And his uncompromising unwillingness to put Oliver or any of the vets on a pedestal is a plus in my books. The backslapping going on among the vets needs to be tempered at times and this is where Rene (and maybe to a lesser extent, Dinah) comes in. Every team needs a bullsh!&-caller. Julian was this guy on Flash, before he bought Caitlin jewelry and became a Team Flash collaborator. I feel Team Arrow sorely needs a teammate who isn't going to be dazzled by the team's past glories and will insist on keeping it "real".

    Going back to Quentin, he and Thea are the characters who haven't had the sort of late-inning focus (yet) that makes the case for their continued main roster status in S6 -- unless the Quentin/Rene bromance is their notion of giving Quentin something meaningful. Of course, they could be ramping it up in order to sell a Quentin death-and-glory exit too. Diggle managed to extend his warranty as a main roster member with his considerable effort to keep the team afloat when it was being disbanded. It was about time we saw Robert's vid to Thea, so this was another box checked off.

    Outside of the relationship angle -- Quentin re: Rene, Thea re: Oliver -- the show needs to give some indication by season's end or early S6 at the latest that they have something interesting in store for them story-wise, going forward. I'm not sure the bromance angle or the familial angle is enough for me to remain invested in these two, not after five years, even though I'm a fan of both Quentin and Thea. (Thea's appeal as a character was also a slow burn for me.) And while Diggle did make a case for his continued presence as Oliver's right hand -- he needs an ARGUS-level subplot like in S2 to convince me that he won't simply be spinning his wheels and merely playing Diggle's 'greatest hits' as a character in S6.

    All bets are off after S5. Everyone will have to earn their keep on this team and seniority rights go out the window.

  5. #5
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Outside of the relationship angle -- Quentin re: Rene, Thea re: Oliver -- the show needs to give some indication by season's end or early S6 at the latest that they have something interesting in store for them story-wise, going forward. I'm not sure the bromance angle or the familial angle is enough for me to remain invested in these two, not after five years, even though I'm a fan of both Quentin and Thea. (Thea's appeal as a character was also a slow burn for me.) And while Diggle did make a case for his continued presence as Oliver's right hand -- he needs an ARGUS-level subplot like in S2 to convince me that he won't simply be spinning his wheels and merely playing Diggle's 'greatest hits' as a character in S6.
    I think it was in WM's most recent interview she said next season would address a lot of rebuilding on a lot of different levels. (I'm paraphrasing) So it sounds likely all the characters next season will be given something to build on in their lives. And because the newbs still have origin story material left hanging, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the vets that get the most significant changes in their lives.

  6. #6
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    It was certainly an improvement on last week. It brought the focus back where it should be and it actually moved the plot forward. As far as Prometheus is concerned, anyway. But it also had a couple of annoying elements that prove Arrow just refuses to change its spots.

    I felt it was a very smart idea to revisit Robert Queen's dark secret. It wasn't easy to take that piece of information and write an episode around it and they did quite well in that regard. It was also something that Thea and especially Oliver needed to find out at some point.

    My only gripe with the Robert Queen arc is that we never learn how Chase found out about it and how he got his hands on the camera footage. Only Robert, Moira and (I'm guessing) Malcolm knew about Robert killing that guy. How did Chase stumble upon it? It's the same issue I had with him finding out William's whereabouts last week (something that even Felicity couldn't do!). Look, I am all for creating a villain who's an extraordinary mastermind, but you have to show how he does the things he does. "He does them because he's so brilliant" alone doesn't suffice and it's lazy writing of the highest order.

    I suppose the "Oliver is a murderer and he likes it" arc was wrapped up this week. Just like with most of the storylines where Arrow attempts to up the ante (Ra's "killing" Oliver, Felicity's paralysis, Felicity's dark arc and so forth), it ended in an anticlimatic matter and with no real consequences. Oliver just realized that he's not a killer after all. Ok, whatever. That's why it's becoming harder and harder to get invested in Arrow's drama: it gets recycled repeatedly and nothing really ever changes. The fact that it was Felicity who ultimately helped him see the light came as no surprise to no one. Most of us called it as soon as it began in 5.17. God forbid Oliver figures out something on his own and without Felicity holding his hand.

    Speaking of killers, will there be any kind of remorse on Diggle's part for killing a number of Sampson's thugs? Or does murder on this show only hold gravitas if it's against an important villain?

    Nice to see Thea back. Not a big fan of what they are doing with her at the moment. The Queen siblings lamenting their inner darkness has become a more tiresome storyline trope than Quentin's alcoholism or Felicity's pep talks to Oliver.

    The flashbacks were quite good this week and it looks like we are getting really close to them coming full circle. Although, like I said in the past, if they were actually following real time, Oliver would have been saved from Lian Yu at the start of season 6. I liked the idea of Anatoly summoning the fishing boat to the island. The answer to how Oliver learned to fly a plane was kind of meh. When it was first brought up in The Unthinkable, I think most of us expected him to learn that skill during the flashbacks. Oh well. As for the bag that Anatoly gave Oliver, I suspect it involves a fake beard and a wig. I find the whole thing a bit ridiculous, but what other options were there? Oliver's hair and beard look nothing like what they looked like in the series premiere. I don't understand why they never had Amell wear fake facial hair of some kind. Oliver was on Lian Yu for 2 years at the start and his beard was always nicely trimmed.

    The Quentin-Rene scenes were fine and I'm actually in agreement with Rene. He shouldn't have custody of his daughter at this point, especially while he's working as a vigilante. Hopefully the show will have him stick to that and not change his mind next week.

    On a final note, did you know my dear Arrow fans that we have to leave the past in the past? It must have been mentioned in this episode only about 4-5 times during the last 15 minutes. I guess the writers figured that it was such an insightful pearl of wisdom on Felicity's part that it should be shoved down the viewer's throat.

    6/10
    Last edited by costas22; 05-12-2017 at 02:40 AM.

  7. #7
    Nate nate-dog1701d's Avatar
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    I agree that Rene shouldn't have custody. I also think it's irresponsible of Diggle to be prancing the streets when he has a young child, especially when his wife also has a dangerous job.

    I didn't need the "Is my father a killer?" drama, mainly because I thought it was clear what kind of man he was. Is Oliver a killer? Was Robert a murderer? Is Thea a monster? I'm a little weary of such questions.

    It was pretty hard to take Felicity's pep talk seriously. Having proactive heroes who grow and change without supporting characters giving them pep talks would do wonders for all of these shows.

    It's kind of amusing seeing Oliver lightswitch between Diggle ripoff and Green Arrow. If he has no problem using guns, one wonders why he exclusively uses arrows the rest of the time.

    Can someone remind me when we first saw Robert's video to Oliver?

  8. #8
    It's the mileage... costas22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nate-dog1701d View Post
    It's kind of amusing seeing Oliver lightswitch between Diggle ripoff and Green Arrow. If he has no problem using guns, one wonders why he exclusively uses arrows the rest of the time.
    Very good point. It's also a bit nonsensical because Oliver has been using guns ever since Prometheus had him confront his nature as a killer who likes what he's doing. And Oliver was so startled by what he discovered about himself that he decided to replace the arrows with a more lethal weapon. Just like Diggle last year opted to atone for killing his brother by rejoining the army.

    Quote Originally Posted by nate-dog1701d View Post
    Can someone remind me when we first saw Robert's video to Oliver?
    It was in episode 3.15 (The Return). When Oliver along with Maseo visited Starling City in the flashbacks. He found it while he was trying to retrieve information at QC.

  9. #9
    Nate nate-dog1701d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    Very good point. It's also a bit nonsensical because Oliver has been using guns ever since Prometheus had him confront his nature as a killer who likes what he's doing. And Oliver was so startled by what he discovered about himself that he decided to replace the arrows with a more lethal weapon. Just like Diggle last year opted to atone for killing his brother by rejoining the army. [emoji38]



    It was in episode 3.15 (The Return). When Oliver along with Maseo visited Starling City in the flashbacks. He found it while he was trying to retrieve information at QC.
    Aha, I figured it was something like that. Thanks.

    Regarding guns, has the show ever tried to convince us the ammunition is some non-lethal type or that they don't shoot kill shots? I don't recall, and it's pretty ridiculous seeing Oliver, Diggle, Rene, and Dinah all running around with guns. Just send Vigilante an invitation already.

    I forgot to mention how dumb this Samson guy is conceptually. If they wanted him to be invincible, that would be fine, but they keep saying he doesn't feel pain, which is different. He may not feel the acid on his skin, but it still burns it. He may not feel the bullets pierce his body, but they still should. His earlier episode even demonstrated this with Oliver slicing his tendons.

  10. #10
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    I suppose the "Oliver is a murderer and he likes it" arc was wrapped up this week. Just like with most of the storylines where Arrow attempts to up the ante (Ra's "killing" Oliver, Felicity's paralysis, Felicity's dark arc and so forth), it ended in an anticlimatic matter and with no real consequences. Oliver just realized that he's not a killer after all. Ok, whatever.
    The Oliver/Felicity convo about him not being a killer is especially weird since he IS a killer and since Felicity has actually asked (or even commanded!) Oliver to kill at least twice in earlier seasons: once when she told him he has to kill Ra's and the other when she told him to kill Dahrk! But this waffling and wavering concerning killing, Oliver's killer mindset etc. etc. is SUCH an illogical, hypocritical mess that many fans just don't care anymore. "I like to kill"...."You're not a killer"...."I only kill when it's absolutely necessary/when my dear ones are in mortal danger"...."I'll blow up/put a bullet in a buttload of foreigners (because their deaths don't really count anyway), and it will provide some really kewl action scenes" etc. etc. As @Costas said..."Mkay, whatever!"
    Last edited by evaba; 05-12-2017 at 07:18 AM.

  11. #11
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I think it was in WM's most recent interview she said next season would address a lot of rebuilding on a lot of different levels. (I'm paraphrasing) So it sounds likely all the characters next season will be given something to build on in their lives. And because the newbs still have origin story material left hanging, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the vets that get the most significant changes in their lives.
    I'm hoping it does play out like this.

    Maybe Quentin assumes the mayoral chair after Oliver leaves city/is forced out due to yet another scandal? Mayor Quentin would then have a huge stake in what happens in S6 Star City. And either Thea joins his administration or does ... something else. And as enjoyable as JB is to watch, Thea not having to rehash Malcolm familial drama would be a good thing too.

  12. #12
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Well we know that JB will NOT be back next season. Thought that doesn't rule out any season after that.

  13. #13
    Nate nate-dog1701d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President_Luthor View Post
    I'm hoping it does play out like this.

    Maybe Quentin assumes the mayoral chair after Oliver leaves city/is forced out due to yet another scandal? Mayor Quentin would then have a huge stake in what happens in S6 Star City. And either Thea joins his administration or does ... something else. And as enjoyable as JB is to watch, Thea not having to rehash Malcolm familial drama would be a good thing too.
    Dare I hope for a Russia scandal?

  14. #14
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costas22 View Post
    ... I felt it was a very smart idea to revisit Robert Queen's dark secret. It wasn't easy to take that piece of information and write an episode around it and they did quite well in that regard. It was also something that Thea and especially Oliver needed to find out at some point.

    My only gripe with the Robert Queen arc is that we never learn how Chase found out about it and how he got his hands on the camera footage. Only Robert, Moira and (I'm guessing) Malcolm knew about Robert killing that guy. How did Chase stumble upon it? It's the same issue I had with him finding out William's whereabouts last week (something that even Felicity couldn't do!). Look, I am all for creating a villain who's an extraordinary mastermind, but you have to show how he does the things he does. "He does them because he's so brilliant" alone doesn't suffice and it's lazy writing of the highest order.

    I suppose the "Oliver is a murderer and he likes it" arc was wrapped up this week. Just like with most of the storylines where Arrow attempts to up the ante (Ra's "killing" Oliver, Felicity's paralysis, Felicity's dark arc and so forth), it ended in an anticlimatic matter and with no real consequences. Oliver just realized that he's not a killer after all. Ok, whatever. That's why it's becoming harder and harder to get invested in Arrow's drama: it gets recycled repeatedly and nothing really ever changes. The fact that it was Felicity who ultimately helped him see the light came as no surprise to no one. Most of us called it as soon as it began in 5.17. God forbid Oliver figures out something on his own and without Felicity holding his hand.

    Speaking of killers, will there be any kind of remorse on Diggle's part for killing a number of Sampson's thugs? Or does murder on this show only hold gravitas if it's against an important villain? ...
    I was okay with their weaving the Robert story into this ep., if only as a reminder that the Queen parents were not paragons of virtue by any stretch. And Thea made an excellent point that despite Robert and Moira's love for their children and genuine desire to protect them, this does not erase the evils they did as individuals.

    I think the Chase-is-Prometheus blindsiding worked so well initially because the show did put in the work to make us believe he had gained Oliver's confidence, became a friend and appeared to be a stand-up DA ... when the rug was pulled out from under Team Arrow, mercilessly. We actually saw Chase make his chess moves right under Team Arrow's noses.

    Now, they are assuming Chase's ten-steps-ahead m.o. explains his practically clairvoyant skills of late. It does run the risk of looking increasingly like magic the longer he does it, and it would be a bigger problem to me if he was doing this stuff without proof of ability since last year. His Prometheus blindside bought him a longer leash here, even though some of his post-blindside moves do need more explanation than we've gotten. (How the heck did he find William?)

    But this late in the season, it's something that doesn't bother me about him so much yet -- esp. if Prometheus is going out in the blaze of glory in the finale. Many viewers would assume he is capable of anything at this point, and will gladly extend to him the benefit of the doubt re: his abilities, whether they see his planning on-screen or not.

    If Chase is sticking around into S6, then his cunning will run the risk of looking less like meticulous planning and more like a particle accelerator-fueled meta power. In that case, he could be Team Flash's big bad in S4. Actually, a Chase - Thawne team-up would be a formidable duo, come to think of it.

    Yeah, it would be nice if Oliver came to these profound self-realizations without help from Felicity, Diggle etc. once in awhile. With SV, the running joke in the fandom was that Chloe was 'Clark's brain' and he had to be guided (if I'm being generous), led or even spoon-fed by Chloe to some life lessons or his heroic potential. I don't feel Oliver is as far gone as that (yet), but there are certainly some similarities with Oliver not "getting" it without help in these later seasons. Dude was fine coming to conclusions or making decisions unassisted in earlier seasons. Must be all those Ivy Town mimosas.

    As much as I liked Diggle stepping up to keep the team afloat this year, he has been all over the map this season character-wise. He's probably not going to lose much sleep offing those anonymous goons, as he and Team Arrow have been doing stuff like that for years. And it took Lyla calling him out on his bs to make him realize: "Oh yeah, we do the same things too!"

    And I do feel the dilemma of playing vigilante and risking all nightly ... while he has a toddler at home must be a serious question Diggle needs to ask himself. Soon. It would also make a rational explanation for him were he to exit the show someday. At some point, his duty as a father may trump his duty to Oliver's cause and if fatherhood means anything to him, he probably knows the answer already.

  15. #15
    Site Groupie President_Luthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nate-dog1701d View Post
    Dare I hope for a Russia scandal?
    The whole house of cards falls due to ... questionable financial irregularities and even more questionable ties to shady Russian oligarchs. Not to mention the multiple times he interfered in on-going police investigations while in office. I'd roll with that. God knows they've got more than enough goods to pin on Mayor Queen. They don't even have to breathe the name Green Arrow and they could still tank him.

    Oliver resigns to avoid a full-blown public impeachment, Quentin takes the reins. And pressed to pursue criminal charges against the ex-mayor, Quentin does his Team Arrow part to make the whole thing quietly go away -- with his sales pitch as reconciliation, renewal and turning over a new leaf. Great job healing the wounded city, Mayor Lance *cough* political whitewash/cover-up *cough*.

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