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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSecretVampire View Post
    The Olicity flashback sex scene in the episode was totally unnecessary. It served no great purpose and was only there for one reason...fan service for the Olicity shippers. There's no disputing or getting around that...it is what it is. It was a small nibble for the Olicity fans to chew on and enjoy. I'm not here to bash the Olicity fans or anything like that, but I'm just saying.
    And I'm just saying I disagree that is didn't serve a purpose that was more than just tittilation. So yes, there is disputing. But I already explained why I feel this up thread so I'll leave it at that.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBentz View Post
    I think whether her apology counts is dependent on how she is written moving forward. If they keep up the same style of writing they have this year, which is similar to Season 1/Season 2, then I can see her actually evolving from this and not remaining a static character. Its okay if she still does the quirky tech girl stuff, because we expect Diggle to be Ollie's brother-in-arms and confidant, Oliver to be the team leader who takes on burdens so his team doesn't have to even when he shouldn't, Lance to make dry one-liner quips about what's going on... that doesn't make them static characters. That's just part of their personality.

    The problem I have personally had w/Felicity is it doesn't feel like she's truly moved on from the person she was in Season 1, and that is simply not possible after five years of fighting in morally gray areas, even if she was behind a computer for it. I seriously expected some differences in Season 3, but the writing changed (and I think it was more they were trying to copy the lighter tone of The Flash while maintaining the dark atmosphere of Arrow than anything else) and Felicity became static. In comparison, we did see some changes in her from Season 1 to Season 2. She became more confident in herself, enough that she joined Dig in the attempt to bring Oliver back to Starling. Would the Felicity from 1x03 have done that? Nope.

    So, if after this heart-to-heart episode, which I actually agree was needed because of the various tensions that have been running through the team (and the need for the newbies to really have a team bonding moment), Felicity grows as a character, than as far as I'm concerned the apology isn't too little, too late. If I'm in the minority, so be it.

    That being said, exemptions aside, did they really think promoting this episode as Olicity-centric would bring in the viewers? *sighs*
    I remain baffled when people call Felicity static. I mean, is the person that went up against Oliver and Argus in 519 the same one that was afraid Walter was only calling her to his office to fire her in season one? Even just her characteristics have altered. She doesn't really do the foot in mouth thing anymore or much babbling.

    She has pretty much the same personality but then so does Oliver and Diggle and Lance. But she isn't always Pollyanna. They let her get mad and sad and everything in between. She voices her opinions like she had since season one but now with a lot more confidence and more to the point, she ACTS on her opinions like she did with Black Siren when Oliver was getting suckered by a sob story.

    And even though she didn't have to follow through with it, she was ready to try and fly the nuke in Russia to someplace safer even if it meant dying. She's not just a person behind a computer helping the heroes, she is one herself.

    And from an emotional standpoint, she's tougher than she was in season three and despite her love for Oliver never changing, she won't compromise on what she needs to be in a relationship with him. Season one Felicity that lusted after and mildly crushed on Oliver wouldn't have that kind of self worth.

    She's mended past relationships and learned more about herself and her parents. She's expanded her professional life and hopefully next year they will let her continue doing that.

    She's learned to compartmentalize immense tragedy like Havenrock so that it doesn't overwhelm her life but they still let us know she is affected. And this whole Helix arc was about how she was affected by the darkness around her and how it had changed her. Oliver's part in it was wanting her NOT to get pulled in more even as she begged him to let her carry the same kind of burden he insisted on shouldering. I don't see how she can be both raked over the coals for her involvement with Helix AND be a static character. .


    I just don't see how it can be said that she hasn't grown or changed. IMO she's one of the characters on the show with the most growth and change while staying true to who she is at her core.

  3. #63
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    Oliver in return telling Felicity about his self-revelation about enjoying to kill and his fears that this was contaminous. That Felicity would learn to enjoy it, too. That Oliver would one day loose control and kill everybody.
    I honestly don't think that was ever one of his worries.

  4. #64
    Chlark Addict BkWurm1's Avatar
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    costas 22

    It's definitely fair to say that there was at least one conversation that needed to be made between Oliver and Felicity. The very last one.
    I thought her last line to Oliver was good, that he did need to figure out what kind of man he was. She may already know but that's pointless unless he understands for himself.

    But that whole apology was a huge fail in my book. For one, tying Billing into the whole Helix thing would have worked a whole lot better if he'd ever been mentioned by Felicity when she was working with Helix. He wasn't even the reason why she was contacted by them or why she joined. And when she was planning Chase's take down in 519, none of her reasons included making sure Billy got justice. But that was just the small stuff.

    Personally, the only way I can come to terms with her apology is if the emphasis remains on her now getting why OLIVER had to lie. Not that she agrees that he made the right choice, but she gets now WHY he was doing what he did. And all that understanding seemed to pop up only after Oliver confessed that it wasn't that he didn't trust her or anyone else, but that he didn't trust himself of the foundation of anything he did.

    Still, how that made her suddenly decide she'd been a hypocrite about Helix when her whole argument was that she was just going to do what he did baffles me. I don't really get what made her decide her choice to trade a hacker for a serial killer was wrong. Actually, let me back up, I don't see it that she said that. She never said she made the wrong choice just like Lyla never backed down, but Felicity after Oliver's confession saw her actions in a different light.

    I think what she finally understood was that she already knew that the "at all costs" attitude was a poor one. So her being hellbent on adopting that flawed method is where she was being a hypocrite. I'll never really understand why Oliver didn't tell her about William except for that Plot demanded it, but I have to assume he thought he was justified in doing this extreme thing (not telling her about William when even Oliver agrees that he should have) and it probably had something to do with him being willing to do something no matter what the cost.

    Again, I don't really understand what Felicity finally got or understood but that's ok. It's hard to demand a logical resolution when the whole BMD never really made sense.

    Any way, when it comes to the apology, I know most on this board will have a different take away but I'll always be convinced that the apology wasn't about guilt, but about understanding and forgiveness. On her part toward Oliver. Sometimes it comes down to you can be happy or you can be right. She found something in what he confessed that explained enough to her about his motives and his trust in her that she's satisfied. So again, even though, I really don't get it, it's enough that she does.

    And yes, I realize this may be one of the most confusing things I've ever written.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I honestly don't think that was ever one of his worries.
    Why not?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSecretVampire View Post
    The Olicity flashback sex scene in the episode was totally unnecessary. It served no great purpose and was only there for one reason...fan service for the Olicity shippers. There's no disputing or getting around that...it is what it is. It was a small nibble for the Olicity fans to chew on and enjoy. I'm not here to bash the Olicity fans or anything like that, but I'm just saying.
    I don't see why this should be wrong. For example, science fiction series also give us sometimes beautiful starships moving or clusters or strange cosmic whatevers. This would not be necessary, the characters could say the ship went away but showing it on screen is nice to see (at least for me). So if it is part of the story, why not show it on screen?

  7. #67
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    I don't see why this should be wrong. For example, science fiction series also give us sometimes beautiful starships moving or clusters or strange cosmic whatevers. This would not be necessary, the characters could say the ship went away but showing it on screen is nice to see (at least for me). So if it is part of the story, why not show it on screen?
    The problem is that in fiction, the stuff that does get precious screen time almost always has some significance, or otherwise it wouldn't be shown. For example, I'm sure that Diggle and Lyla, or Tommy and Laurel/Oliver and Felicity have made love numerous times in Offscreen-ville, but due to narrative economy, their intimate moments are not shown on screen. Our fan fiction writers would say that this is the difference between real lives and fictional lives....we are only privy to very selected moments in the main characters' lives, the moments that have some significance for their characterization or for the overall plot. Since "Arrow" is much more plot-oriented series than many other shows (e.g. British blue collar soaps like "Eastenders", which tend to spend quite a lot of screen time on the everyday moments/life of the main characters), the focus is on the superhero action, rather than on domestic moments.

    So, when the writers devote X minutes of screen time to foreplay and shots of two beautiful people kissing and making love, we expect these happenings to have some further significance for the plot. It could be a breakthrough in their relationship, as when two star-crossed lovers who have been longing and lusting for each other for months finally manage to get together for the first time. Those scenes are usually very pivotal scenes in a fictional relationship, like the Olicity Nanda Parbat sex in season four. However, the Olicity flashback sex didn't seem to play any pivotal role in the overall narrative, and hence it came off as fanservice to a fandom that has been clamoring for Olicity intimacy/sex since the beginning of the season. Maybe that's why the Ksite non-oliciters regard it more as a GIF-able moment than as a necessary or significant plot event.

    Chekhov has made an oft-quoted comment about narrative economy in dramatic writing, called "Chekhov's Gun":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun

    If we apply this wisdom to 5X20, we could say that the Arrowcave love making is akin to a gun that never went off (this sounds oddly risqué, but I hope you get my point!).
    Last edited by evaba; 05-08-2017 at 10:02 AM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post

    If one wanted to be pedantic, you could say that Oliver could have stopped and asked for clarification on what bunker sex would mean between them, but that seems as unrealistic as Felicity stopping the moment and spelling out that it would change nothing. I think Oliver was willing to take his chances and it didn’t seem like he regretted it. I also think it helped that she didn’t let the misconception that something had changed build.
    All that scene done is highlight Felicity as a tramp!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    Of course not everyone shares IGN's opinion. I know for me it's only been when this season started remembering Oliver and Felicity had a relationship that the season started being anything but a dull treading of water.
    Utter nonsense! This season, so far has been great. If you want the Felicity crap that destroyed the show for 2 seasons, go back and watch season 3 and 4. To say it's been a bit dull after all of the action, improved fighting coreography, a great villan, very good flashbacks, confirms you only watch the show for 'Felicity and Friends' scenes.

  10. #70
    Forum Regular Arrow_47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaba View Post
    The problem is that in fiction, the stuff that does get precious screen time almost always has some significance, or otherwise it wouldn't be shown. For example, I'm sure that Diggle and Lyla, or Tommy and Laurel/Oliver and Felicity have made love numerous times in Offscreen-ville, but due to narrative economy, their intimate moments are not shown on screen. Our fan fiction writers would say that this is the difference between real lives and fictional lives....we are only privy to very selected moments in the main characters' lives, the moments that have some significance for their characterization or for the overall plot. Since "Arrow" is much more plot-oriented series than many other shows (e.g. British blue collar soaps like "Eastenders", which tend to spend quite a lot of screen time on the everyday moments/life of the main characters), the focus is on the superhero action, rather than on domestic moments.

    So, when the writers devote X minutes of screen time to foreplay and shots of two beautiful people kissing and making love, we expect these happenings to have some further significance for the plot. It could be a breakthrough in their relationship, as when two star-crossed lovers who have been longing and lusting for each other for months finally manage to get together for the first time. Those scenes are usually very pivotal scenes in a fictional relationship, like the Olicity Nanda Parbat sex in season four. However, the Olicity flashback sex didn't seem to play any pivotal role in the overall narrative, and hence it came off as fanservice to a fandom that has been clamoring for Olicity intimacy/sex since the beginning of the season. Maybe that's why the Ksite non-oliciters regard it more as a GIF-able moment than as a necessary or significant plot event.

    Chekhov has made an oft-quoted comment about narrative economy in dramatic writing, called "Chekhov's Gun":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun

    If we apply this wisdom to 5X20, we could say that the Arrowcave love making is akin to a gun that never went off (this sounds oddly risqué, but I hope you get my point!).
    Gotta say right out of the gate that I am anti-Olicity and even anti-Felicity...(for now). But one could argue that the bunker scene showed that sometimes actions speak louder than words. Despite what Oliver and Felicity are saying to each other, their willingness to give in to the moment revealed that there is something still there between them. The scene could have been a veiled signal to the audience that there is more to this relationship than meets the eye. But we won't know for sure until we see what direction they take in season 6. I will say this, now that the writers have shown Felicity to be a little remorseful and apologetic for how she treated Oliver I do think it is possible to eventually make the relationship work.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I'll never really understand why Oliver didn't tell her about William except for that Plot demanded it, but I have to assume he thought he was justified in doing this extreme thing (not telling her about William when even Oliver agrees that he should have) and it probably had something to do with him being willing to do something no matter what the cost.
    Because the mother of his child TOLD him not to tell anyone. He wanted a relationship with his son. It was a simple choice, tell Felicity or have a relationship with his son. He made the correct decision.

    But, everything had to revolve around mighty Felicity in season 4 and as a direct result, the quality of the show in all it's aspect, decreased dramatically.

    This season, less Felicity nonsense, higher quality Arrow!
    Last edited by Kal El's Equal; 05-08-2017 at 01:08 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal El's Equal View Post
    Because the mother of his child TOLD him not to tell anyone. He wanted a relationship with his son. It was a simple choice, tell Felicity or have a relationship with his son. He made the correct decision.

    But, everything had to revolve around mighty Felicity in season 4 and as a direct result, the quality of the show in all it's aspect, decreased dramatically.

    This season, less Felicity nonsense, higher quality Arrow!
    Agreed. The better episodes had a lot less Felicity in them.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow_47 View Post
    Gotta say right out of the gate that I am anti-Olicity and even anti-Felicity...(for now). But one could argue that the bunker scene showed that sometimes actions speak louder than words. Despite what Oliver and Felicity are saying to each other, their willingness to give in to the moment revealed that there is something still there between them. The scene could have been a veiled signal to the audience that there is more to this relationship than meets the eye. But we won't know for sure until we see what direction they take in season 6. I will say this, now that the writers have shown Felicity to be a little remorseful and apologetic for how she treated Oliver I do think it is possible to eventually make the relationship work.
    You do have a point. However, that scene could just as well have been inserted in another episode, maybe in season six, where it would have had the same narrative function. To ME it didn't make much sense, other than as shipper fanservice. Maybe it's just that the Olicity relationship writing has engendered so many clumsy fan service moments (e.g. flashback Oliver watching Felicity in his mother's office, looking at his "serial killer" photograph and saying "it's too bad you're dead, because you're so gorgeous"!) that it's easy to regard scenes which involves Olicity kissing and sex as fanservice for a romance-starved shipper fandom. There is nothing wrong with this IMHO....I mean, if I had been a fan of the couple, I would probably have enjoyed the flashback scene.

    Of course, if you ask Guggenheim he has NEVAH EVAH written ANYTHING with the aim to please a specific fanbase! He is "Mr Artistic Integrity", even when he makes a whole frickin' video about the resurrection of a PLANT! Yes, I know it was for charity, but it still shows how Guggenheim at that time conflated the Olicity shipper fandom with the fans in general....most of whom didn't have a clue or didn't care about the FERN! After the massive season four backlash, I think he's much more aware of how divided the "Arrow" fandom really is.
    Last edited by evaba; 05-08-2017 at 02:06 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkWurm1 View Post
    I honestly don't think that was ever one of his worries. [That he would lose control and kill everyone]
    Quote Originally Posted by Freawaru View Post
    Why not?
    Because he'd never shown signs of insanity or loss of control while fighting.

    Thea did when she had the blood lust and Oliver certain killed a lot of people so it made sense to me that he would question if he did it because he liked it but nothing in show actually showed us that his loved ones were in any danger of him including them in a killing spree.

    Even if the show had gone the route that he actually liked killing (which happily they are now redirecting to Oliver only thinking that, not that it was true), there's no indication he'd have targeted anyone but the bad guys.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal El's Equal View Post
    All that scene done is highlight Felicity as a tramp!
    Hey, as long as you also consider Oliver a tramp as well, then fine, that’s your opinion, but it was both of them mutually getting it on in the bunker after they’d been drinking. Singling out only the female character is not a good look.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal El's Equal View Post
    Utter nonsense! This season, so far has been great. If you want the Felicity crap that destroyed the show for 2 seasons, go back and watch season 3 and 4. To say it's been a bit dull after all of the action, improved fighting coreography, a great villan, very good flashbacks, confirms you only watch the show for 'Felicity and Friends' scenes.
    It is your opinion that the season has been great. I am allowed to have mine, the one that says that up until a point, this season was the most emotionally bankrupt season of the series and thus, the worst.

    Yes, I agree that many of the fights have improved over last season but a bit of action will not tie me to a show. It’s the characters that invest me in everything so if I’m not invested in the characters, a few flashy stunts aren’t going to change my overall enjoyment of the show.

    Arrow is both an action and a drama show. And if I find I am more invested in one aspect of the show than another, I have just as much right to watch the show that way as you do yours.

    Arrow spent most of the first half of the season on things that did not let me emotionally invest in the show. Too many plot points that were pointless. Characters that proved to be just filler. (Church) Too much new character focus at the expense of the ones I was watching the show for. Too many storylines squandered and rushed past.

    And as I repeatedly have written, it was ALL the regulars that I found lacking in their emotional responses in the first half of the season. All of them were walled off from each other most of the time. Not just Oliver and Felicity.

    You do not get to tell me what I can and can not watch or comment on. They had oodles of even better fight scenes back in season one and two IMO but I’m perfectly happy with letting you watch and express your opinion about all the seasons, not just segregate you to a couple past seasons. I ask you do the same for me about the emotional content.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kal El's Equal View Post
    Because the mother of his child TOLD him not to tell anyone. He wanted a relationship with his son. It was a simple choice, tell Felicity or have a relationship with his son. He made the correct decision.

    But, everything had to revolve around mighty Felicity in season 4 and as a direct result, the quality of the show in all it's aspect, decreased dramatically.

    This season, less Felicity nonsense, higher quality Arrow!
    Oliver lied to his whole family for years and still lies to world in general every single day. What remains impossible for me to understand is why Oliver felt that he couldn’t simply tell Felicity the truth about William and then lie to Samantha about not telling her.

    Samantha didn’t have him chipped or bugged. She’d never have a way to check up on him and after cruelly lying to Oliver about the very existence of his son, he owed her a heck of a lot less fidelity than the woman he’d trusted with his truest self (The Green Arrow) and who he then planned to marry and spend the rest of his life with.

    Samantha could demand whatever conditions she wanted as long as Oliver wasn’t willing to go to court, but there’s no way she could ever verify if he followed the unreasonable condition not to tell Felicity that she put on him as just pure punishment. (If you recall, she said as much)

    That Oliver let her control him like that or that he felt that he had to honor her request remains baffling. He would still have had the same limited relationship with William if he told Felicity he existed or not. She can keep his secrets. He had no reason not to tell her. Except Plot!

    I can't follow the logic that it's Felicity or Olicity's fault about the melodrama when if the show had just left Olicity together and not written Oliver so to create a break up, there would have been no melodrama. The problem wasn't Olicity, but anyone that wanted it to end. Well you got your wish. I'm pretty sure you hated it as much as I did.
    Last edited by BkWurm1; 05-08-2017 at 03:27 PM.

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